Relics

[Moonstalker]

To start off, I'm going to pick on the standouts, wargear that I think is either bad or broken.


Combat Augment Array (Universal): There is inconsistent use of singular/plural throughout the rule, leading to some disagreement over whether this relic allows you to get 6's all turn, 6's on a single test, or only one guaranteed 6.  And then the relic tries to kill you.  Depending on how it is actually intended to affect the dice rolls, this relic ranges from broken (in the case of multiple guaranteed 6's and combining it with a moritat) to useful to useless.


Cloaking Array (Universal): Fairly useless.  The item must by activated at the beginning of the game turn, and prevents the model from moving, shooting, assaulting, or taking any other actions.  They also cannot use it if they are joined to another unit.  So, in order to use this device, you must:

1. Be an IC
2. Be on the table at the beginning of the game turn
3. Not be attached to a unit
4. Not be in an assault
5. Have no plans for doing anything with the model that turn
6. Not be facing any Daemons or Psykers

If you could at least move while using it it would be helpful, but you are basically locking down one of your IC's for a turn and committing them to doing nothing.  It might be some kind of save-your-bacon device, but if so it's incredibly hard to use - depending on who goes first and how the game turns work out, you may not even get a chance to activate it when you need it.


Contagium Mechanica (Mech): I'm having a little trouble gauging this one because I'm not sure whether it's intended to keep harming vehicles after infecting them or not, but I'm really inclined to just call OP on it.  In the case that it will just keep eating hull points off vehicles even after they've been infected, then it's wildly overpowered.  If it will only ever take one hull point off a vehicle, it's still overpowered.  With vehicle squadrons and dreadnought talons running around, it's going to be easy to find groups of vehicles that are bunched up close enough to pass the infection (nevermind that a 12 inch radius covers 1/6 of the board), so even one casting of it is going to near-guarantee you several hull points worth of damage.  The only "negative" is that it doesn't distinguish between friendly and enemy vehicles, but that isn't exactly difficult to play around since the infection happens during your shooting phases, giving you a chance to move your vehicles to safety right beforehand.


Cortica Primus (Mech): As pointed out by Nehekare, this must be given to an Independent Character, and is only useful to characters that have the Cybertheurgy rule.  There are no Independent Characters with Cybertheurgy.


Pyrix Extasis (DA): Once per game you can force a Fear test on every enemy unit engaged in an assault with a unit from the bearer's side.  Not quite as bad as it would be in 40k (with ATSKNF marines), but it's not all that great, either.  Depthcharge goes more in-depth.

 

Yeah I wanted to run the relic just for S&Giggles, but I play against Athrawes, who uses that wonderful fearless standard bubble. Not to mention the fact that the enemy warlord can roll on the table and get fearless and give it to his unit. This happens more than what people would like to believe, but with the ability to roll two dice on the chart with a praetor, your opponent will likely get and pick the fearless to combat the DA relic.

I don't like the relic for the reason of too many what if's. The above situation, fearless vets, and Death Guard will all ignore the box of doom. All units, IF they even reach close combat (which is more likely in 30k), must then activate it, which also relies on a leadership test to fail.

As opposed to say the BA relic which works 100% of the time you reach cc, or the various cloaks/shields that block damage.

I'd honestly make the DA relic a 5 point piece of war gear due to balance. I mean hell, you could even roll Bloody Handed on the warlord chart and gain fear for free!

;.(

Oh why Lord Bligh? Why doest thou forsake us?!

Indomitan Mantle (IF): It goes here because it's expensive for what it does.  Salamanders get the Elder Drake Mantle for EW, which costs 30 points less and can be given to multiple characters in a detachment.  The 3++ save this mantle provides vs Melta weapons seems interesting at first, but I think it is largely irrelevant - if you're kitting a character out for melee with the Mantle, I find it highly probable you'd also give him a Vigil-Pattern Storm Shield which would provide him with a 3++ save vs everything.


Grav Gauntlet (IH): It's an assault 3 template weapon.  What's more, it's Haywire, and even more it's haywire that affects buildings, and EVEN MORE it's Graviton Pulse and AP3.  In my nightmares, an Iron Hands Centurion is riding around on a jetbike with one of these things, with a cheap squad to provide ablative wounds for him, while he darts in to deliver 3 haywire attacks to any and all vehicles in the backfield without any need to roll to hit.  At the height of his cruelty, he catches both members of a 2 Predator squadron under the template and glances them both to death in a single turn, then darts away, laughing as his -1 to shooting attack strength and 2+ armor save stave off any attempt at retribution just long enough for him to escape.

Seriously, assault 3 haywire template, golly gee?


Barbaran Thurible (DG): Don't get fooled by the rules about all shooting casualties causing morale checks, this is not a relic intended to help you in your shooting phase.  The short range on it is going to limit it to melee usage most of the time, and it's going to be brutal.  DG should already be packing Rad Grenades for -1 T in the first turn of an assault, and combining it with the -1 T from the Thurible will turn enemy Marines into whimpering Grots that are just waiting for a chainsword to put them out of their misery.  Hard to say if it's overpowered, but making every enemy in an assault T2 for a turn seems quite strong.



And some commentary on my personal favourite.

Cataphractii Primus (SoH): This is actually quite cheap for what it does, and if you're kitting out a melee Praetor/Centurion in TDA and don't take it... you're doing it wrong.  This is only 15 points more expensive than a normal suit of TDA, and for that you get EW (cheapest access to it in 30k).  The +1 Toughness vs shooting attacks is largely irrelevant.  It won't come into play 90% of the time as you use the majority toughness of a unit when rolling to wound, and if the Praetor is on his own... well, you don't have to be afraid of him getting double-toughed by a stray lascannon or missile launcher shot, because he already has EW from the suit.  It'll make him a little tougher, but +1 T won't keep him up very long if it's just him standing around on his lonesome.

[Pavel Araghast]

Yeap, our armour is really great, at first I thought it's overpriced, but then I understood it's not just upgrade, it's a replacement for TA and it's really bargain for what it gives us.

[Sanct]

SoH: Do you think it gives the power weapon and combi like the cataphratii armour upgrade.  Equipping becomes hazy at that point.  

It's useful in a unit as well. Have the character tank those s8-9 shots since the character still gets FnP against them and ignores the ID they cause

[Brofist]

Is it possible to 'activate' the cloaking array while in reserves on, say, turn 1? If yes, I can see a use for it, otherwise it would be pretty worthless.

[Moonstalker]

SoH: Do you think it gives the power weapon and combi like the cataphratii armour upgrade.  Equipping becomes hazy at that point.  

It's useful in a unit as well. Have the character tank those s8-9 shots since the character still gets FnP against them and ignores the ID they cause

 

I believe so.

 

1. Cataphractii Primus states that it is a suit of Cataphractii armour, and has the standard rules for this armor type.

2. Praetors and Centurions have a separate wargear entry that lists their stock wargear when in Terminator/Cataphractii armor, and the Combi-bolter and Power Weapon are included there.

3. There is nothing that states that the Cataphractii Primus must be purchased as an upgrade to a IC that already has Cataphractii armor.

 

Is it possible to 'activate' the cloaking array while in reserves on, say, turn 1? If yes, I can see a use for it, otherwise it would be pretty worthless.

 

Even were it possible (I do not believe it is possible to activate wargear for models not currently on the table?), you would be unable to bring the IC on from reserves as they are not allowed any movement.

[Sanct]

Use the cloak on a moritat to survive the turn of reloading after a volley?  Or maybe the solo character who wipes units in 1 turn assaults? (ec or rg relic type)  You tend to be pretty close to the enemy in those situations but you would have to plan way ahead and get lucky to be in those situations

 

Zeroth Conductor Shield (Salamander): This seems pretty cool.  +d6 power fist hits (not attacks) at the I10 step.  Even when in combat? Anyone? Bueller?

[Moonstalker]

I didn't think the Zeroth was all that OP at first, as I thought there might be ways to play around it - like just gunning them down.  But you're right, auto-hits and having it function even while already locked in combat do tip the scales a bit.

[Sevatar]

Thoughts on the Raven Guard relic? The Harrow Blade?

Thoughts on the White Scar/Emperor's Children one?

[Moonstalker]

I like the special rule for the ECs one, but being AP3 will ultimately hold it back.  If it was cheap, I might see it being taken alongside a Paragon blade so that a EC Praetor could choose whether to be defensive with the Lucid Blade or get his chop on with the Paragon.

 

Harrow Blade seems quite balanced, all things considered.  It has its niche, it's not insanely priced, and it's not terrible.  You put it on a Centurion and you try to force Tactical blobs to lose combat so you can sweep them.

 

I have trouble reading the White Scars entry because my eyes are rolling so hard each time I look at it.  We get it, White Scars are Mongolian horsemen, they ride bikes instead of horses, and now they can shoot a bow from their motorized horse.  Heavy 1 is irrelevant as I'm certain any WS player will have their HQ's on bikes.  Despite the mountain of USRs that are piled on it, I'm not sure it's actually a terribly strong weapon, especially not for the price, but it may have its place.

[Sanct]

The EC one is on the low end of ok.  Apparently the master parry rule is worth 25 points.  If you could trade invulnerable for attacks as well or had the s/ap of a phoenix spear it would be good.

I get the idea of the lucid blade but, as is, you're only going to use it on a back field harasser or to add to a chaplain/forge in a unit of phoenix/palatines to tank the challenge for them while they kill the unit.  

[Nehekhare]

SoH: Do you think it gives the power weapon and combi like the cataphratii armour upgrade. 

TDA entries say "with Power weapon and Combi-Bolter", so no. The relic buys you the armor only. Worse even, you now count as clad in Terminator armor and use the options for that - but you don't have the weapons you are supposed to exchange for all the options. You have no way of buying them and can't use the options to exchange your power armor weapons either, so you're stuck with Chainsword/BP. Easy to fix, but that one doesn't work RAW. Maybe a FAQ will help out in about 6 months. Who wrote this crap?

[Moonstalker]

 

SoH: Do you think it gives the power weapon and combi like the cataphratii armour upgrade. 

TDA entries say "with Power weapon and Combi-Bolter", so no. The relic buys you the armor only. Worse even, you now count as clad in Terminator armor and use the options for that - but you don't have the weapons you are supposed to exchange for all the options. You have no way of buying them and can't use the options to exchange your power armor weapons either, so you're stuck with Chainsword/BP. Easy to fix, but that one doesn't work RAW. Maybe a FAQ will help out in about 6 months. Who wrote this crap?

 

 

I disagree.

 

http://i.imgur.com/gXjYQVI.jpg

 

I think that, despite not explicitly stating in its entry that it comes with combi-bolter/power sword, when taken on a Praetor or Centurion they are automatically equipped with those as they have different stock wargear depending on the armor they are wearing.  And, counting in all ways as a suit of Cataphractii armor, it would put the Praetor into the cataphractii-having category.  Were the rules written well, there would be no question, but the SoH relic suffers from the same sloppy writing as the rest of the relics.

 

Anyone up for a community relic rules rewrite project?

[depthcharge12]

I'm down. I want to rewrite or change the DA relic

[Brofist]

Even were it possible (I do not believe it is possible to activate wargear for models not currently on the table?), you would be unable to bring the IC on from reserves as they are not allowed any movement.

My thought was to put the guy in a drop pod or dreadclaw. In this way, they aren't the ones moving but are required to enter play via the drop pod assault rules.

[Moonstalker]

 

Even were it possible (I do not believe it is possible to activate wargear for models not currently on the table?), you would be unable to bring the IC on from reserves as they are not allowed any movement.

My thought was to put the guy in a drop pod or dreadclaw. In this way, they aren't the ones moving but are required to enter play via the drop pod assault rules.

 

 

1. He may not use it while in reserves.  Found the quote in the rulebook, "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserves."

2. He may not use it while attached to a unit (like if he had joined a unit to hop in their drop pod).  So, if you wanted to do this, you'd have to buy him a Dreadclaw all his own.  I don't know for all the legion specific RoW, but Orbital Assault requires units to enter play in their purchased Dedicated Transports, so you can't somehow finagle a regular drop pod for him.

3. It has no real effect while he remains inside the pod, and he may not voluntarily disembark while it is active as that counts as movement.  The 'cannot be shot at' effect only applies to the bearer, not the bearer and his transport.

4. At best, if he somehow manages to use it from reserves (or if he arrived via dreadclaw, the dreadclaw flew around for a turn, and then he activated it for absolutely no reason in the second turn that the dreadclaw is on the table...) and score himself a dreadclaw, you become faced with the dilemma of "what happens when the pod is destroyed while the cloaking array is active?"  IMO, he cannot be placed, as he cannot move, and thus is destroyed as per a failed emergency disembarkation.  A kinder player may let you place him in base to base with the hull/stand of the dreadclaw and then not move him, or let you move him and have the cloaking field immediately deactivate.  A crueler player would tell you that the drop pod itself cannot enter play at all (supposing you were able to activate the cloaking field), as it would count as moving at combat speed when entering play, and as a passenger he would count as moving.

 

 

I can really only think of one potential use.  Sanct suggested and I initially theorized some kind of save your bacon device, like if you get second turn and have a Moritat or similar, after you blow someone up you can then cloaking field during the reload turn.  The problem with that is you can't do anything to move him to safety during that turn.  Your opponent will still get a free shot at him, just one turn later than they would have otherwise, as he can't move to safety while the cloak is active.  The one idea that could work is that, in a similar second-turn situation, you move the cloaking field character within 3 inches of an objective right before the game end (end of turn 5 or end of turn 6, depending on when you anticipate the game ending) and activate the cloaking field, providing a denial unit that can't be targeted for one turn.

 

Edit: And that is in itself of dubious value, because when you have second turn you get to do the final movements to arrange all your scoring/denials anyway.  If you're severely behind and don't think you can keep the Cloaking Field bearer alive for one more turn, but desperately need that denial, then maybe it's useful, but you might not be losing so badly if you had spent your points on wargear that helped you out earlier in the game in the first place.

[Nehekhare]

 

 

SoH: Do you think it gives the power weapon and combi like the cataphratii armour upgrade. 

TDA entries say "with Power weapon and Combi-Bolter", so no. The relic buys you the armor only. Worse even, you now count as clad in Terminator armor and use the options for that - but you don't have the weapons you are supposed to exchange for all the options. You have no way of buying them and can't use the options to exchange your power armor weapons either, so you're stuck with Chainsword/BP. Easy to fix, but that one doesn't work RAW. Maybe a FAQ will help out in about 6 months. Who wrote this crap?

 

 

I disagree.

 

http://i.imgur.com/gXjYQVI.jpg

 

I think that, despite not explicitly stating in its entry that it comes with combi-bolter/power sword, when taken on a Praetor or Centurion they are automatically equipped with those as they have different stock wargear depending on the armor they are wearing.  And, counting in all ways as a suit of Cataphractii armor, it would put the Praetor into the cataphractii-having category.  Were the rules written well, there would be no question, but the SoH relic suffers from the same sloppy writing as the rest of the relics.

 

Anyone up for a community relic rules rewrite project?

 

 

You are absolutely right! It doesn't work for Characters that don't have the alternative wargear entry, though (but I don't think there is one elegible to take the armor).

 

btw another gem of brokenness: while I still don't think the combat array augments more than any one dice roll during a given turn, imagine it did for the sake of the argument... now imagine the model also had a nanyte blaster. MUCH worse than the moritat.

 

I'm in for a rewrite! Here's my first contribution:

 

Blind Helm of the Black Judges (45 pts, IW only)

Ignore the rules text. The Helm incorporates a Cogis-signum and Nuncio-vox and confers the Bombardment special rule (CAL p. 17) to its bearer.

[Emperors Teeth]

No comments on the Nanyte Blaster? That thing is a 40 point unit remover! Also, the Alpha Legion pistol is pretty bonkers on a Moritat.

[Sanct]

Blind Helm of the Black Judges (45 pts, IW only)

Ignore the rules text. The Helm incorporates a Cogis-signum and Nuncio-vox and confers the Bombardment special rule (CAL p. 17) to its bearer.

 

 

Someone really wants their Master of Signal back.

[Nehekhare]

No comments on the Nanyte Blaster? That thing is a 40 point unit remover!

 

imagine you play against orks or guard, roll a 4+ and spend the follwoing 8 hours resolving blast marker attacks.

 

 

Someone really wants their Master of Signal back.

 

Yep. Also: combinable with other Centurion upgrades (Siege master, Forge Lord), Terminator armor, Praetors/Warsmiths.

[Tiger9gamer]

 

No comments on the Nanyte Blaster? That thing is a 40 point unit remover!

 

imagine you play against orks or guard, roll a 4+ and spend the follwoing 8 hours resolving blast marker attacks.

 

 

Someone really wants their Master of Signal back.

 

Yep. Also: combinable with other Centurion upgrades (Siege master, Forge Lord), Terminator armor, Praetors/Warsmiths.

 

 

 

I actually tested it out last night at a GW just for :cusss and giggles. It's absolutely monsterous on GEQ. also, question: If another unit gets caught under the template does it keep going on the second unit too?

[Nehekhare]

 

If another unit gets caught under the template does it keep going on the second unit too?

 

 

blasts are centered on the position of any model that became a casuality to the initial shot or any blasts on a 4+. I don't see anything stopping the uncontrolled replication exept gaps between models that are wider than half a large blast template or bad dice rolls/no casualities.

[Tiger9gamer]

 

 

If another unit gets caught under the template does it keep going on the second unit too?

 

 

blasts are centered on the position of any model that became a casuality to the initial shot or any blasts on a 4+. I don't see anything stopping the uncontrolled replication exept gaps between models that are wider than half a large blast template or bad dice rolls/no casualities.

 

damn that does sound awesome. hmmm maybe putting one on a moritat with phase shifter would be good? I dunno but I want it in 40k X-X

[Moonstalker]

I made a topic for brainstorming our own homebrew relics, so that we don't clutter this topic up.  We should leave this one for discussion of the official relics.

[Theredknight]

No comment on the ec blade.

Considering we are forced to challenge, an ap3 blade is pretty much worthless for a champion a

Who comes up against 2+ armour. May as well have ap -

 

If it granted eternal warrior or some other rule it may be worth it.

 

As it stands, it is by far, the worse and most useless of all the legion specific relics. I will take generic if I take one.

[Sevatar]

It is nowhere near the worse.

 

Used with a bit of luck you can have a 2++ champion who can tank for you.

The Dark Angels one is just.... unbelievable. Really. I mean, just terrible.

The White Scars looks cool, but it lacks the strength to target fliers or heavier models.

The Ultramarine one is a gimmick power sword that might come in useful 1/5. Unlike the EC one it relues on your opponent fielding an uncommon piece of wargear.