Lord Kallozar Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Hi all, Just want to know what the in game benefits and disadvantages are comparing plague marines and chaos marines with the mark of nurgle? Why would people choose chaos with MoN over plague marines? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 PM cheap, FnP+ton of other rules, 2 specials in 5 man squads. CSM cheaper, but not that much, no special rules, one special in 5 man squad. Unless there are point problems somewhere else in the list PMS will always be better then nurgle csm. The specials rules PMs get out perform the points difference between those units. And if problems do turn up making pms too highcost, then runing markless csm is better then mon ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Go for PMs: you won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kallozar Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 Cheers for the replies. Jeske - especially thanks to you, that cleared things up nicely. Another question - fluff wise how do chaos with mark of nurgle exist if they are not plague marines? Are they recent nurgle renegades that havnt fully developed into plague marines yet or are they marines that are not as zealous in nurgle worship as full on plague marines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasclomalum Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 I'd like to think that Nurgle marked Chaos Space Marines have managed to retain more of their humanity. Yes, they'd be smelly and plague-ridden, but not quite the power armour-encased mess of sludge and microbacterial culture I'd imagine plague marines to be. Essentially, with Nurgle-marked Chaos Space Marines we get this. Whereas with Plague Marines we get this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strazhakov Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Imho only MoK CSM are a viable alternative for Cult troops. They are on par with Berserkers, which sadly isn't really much to brag about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 PMs are Fearless. Don't forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kallozar Posted December 14, 2014 Author Share Posted December 14, 2014 Cheers again for the replies dudes. But chaos marines with nurgle mark are still quite tough and good right? So let's just say if (yes that's an if) someone used chaos marines with MoN instead of plague marines then how would you equip them and how many would you take in a unit? Still 7 or would you use more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 They are rather bad. If you have to take csm then take them markless, run man5x4 in rhinos with plasma. along side them 2 units of cultists[10man strong]. as support a biker star and 2-3 maulers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Another question - fluff wise how do chaos with mark of nurgle exist if they are not plague marines? Are they recent nurgle renegades that havnt fully developed into plague marines yet or are they marines that are not as zealous in nurgle worship as full on plague marines? Off the top of my head, from what I remember in the Tome of Decay (Black Crusade RPG) the Plague Marines are the completely devoted and chosen champions of Nurgle. Those with his Mark are to a degree also, but they might not 'wholey' be there yet so to speak. Plague Marines are very visibly completed corrupted (or 'blessed') by Nurgle with all the rot, bloated forms, etc. Those with the Marks certainly might have similar features, but they could also be below the surface so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtle Discord Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Don't forget, you can model the suggested regular Chaos Marines as Nurgle worshipers (decay, rust, and other unmentionable details) and not make them proper Plague Marines or MoN Marines; just be sure to make the details less pronounced - regular Chaos Marines that are just rough around the edges. You will need to be consistent in how you treat models like that on the table to avoid confusion, but there's nothing wrong with it. Bulk the army out with standard Chaos Marines that worship Nurgle but aren't formally marked yet (they'll still look the part, however), and then add the really dedicated worshipers that are marked or proper Plague Marines and can play both roles when you want. (trust me, and others, you'll be happier with proper Plague Marines) The second group is where you really make them look properly bless by Grandfather Nurgle with the bloat, disease, and corruption being much more prolific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Not all diseases make one bloated, But then againt it is a taste/modeling kind of a question. RAW wise one could use proper sized stones and the army would be legal too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 Like that cube army of tzeentch demons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 Iirc, the distinction between MoN and PMs properhas evolved slowly since 3rd edition. As I recall, you originally could not mark generic csm units. (Other than lords). The cult troops were their own entry.Plague Marines had T5, but FnP did not exist. Then, in 3.5 you could upgrade various support units, like termies and Havoks to MoN, giving them T5 too. It gave them various restrictions too, such as in heavy weapons. I can't recall if there was a seperate form of MoN that didn't make the holder a PM too. Then in 4th, I think the designers decided the cult troop upgrades were too complicated. So the allowed all the standard marines and support dudes to take a marked banner that gave a small bonus. (+1t in the cast of Nurgle.) The cult troops remained, costing a bit more and getting the standard bonus, plus a little extra. In the PMS case, they got FnP and the grenades and knife. This change allowed you to nurglify your whole army, but felt sort of lame, compared to making real plague marine variants. Update to the present edition, has largely followed this appraoch, and the fluff has filled out to distinguish a marked unit from a true cult unit. It continues to satisfy nobody, really, who wants to field a cult army. Why can't I pay more to give FnP and pknives to my bikers or termies or havoks? Seems lame, but it keeps the codex simple, I suppose. So... the short answwe is, PMs are just a lot better, with fearless and fnp. The defense grenades are sometimes useful, and it's fun to poison things with the knife. (Like wraithknights!) They are limited to special weapons, not heavies, which makes them short ranged fighters. The full kit of a ccw, bolt pistol and bolter is also handy. It means you can choose whether to rapid fire or charge by situation, without worrying if you have the equipment. On the downside, PMs are I3 so you go after other marines in cc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kallozar Posted December 15, 2014 Author Share Posted December 15, 2014 Cheers for the replies. Tdemayo - you said that the recent fluff has distinguished marked units from true cult units. Which fluff are you referring to as a matter of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Well, look at the Purged. They are not Death Guard. I can't recall if they have any true Plague Marines, but they are definitely MoN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I like to think that CSM MoN are newbies and PM have had a few hundred years to putrefy. I did a math test once for equal points CSM of N vs PM and found that a full unit of 20 CSM usually beats PM because of quantity of attacks If you are fighting orks in melee I bet they could be pretty good just dont give them any specials whatsoever, and if you put a dark apostle of nurgle with them Oh boy do they get fun. Thennnn I stuck them in that R&N spartan tank I think was the transport to carry them all into assault. not gonna win any tourneys but boy was it fun to roll up in a big tank let 21 boys out (HEY A NURGLE NUMBER) and slam them into the enemy rolling lots of dice with rerolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 IL be honest i prefere csm with mon to plague marines but thats down to 2 things 1) both the current and previous codex state that most plague marines are either death guard or black legion my army is neither 2) they dont require me to take a lord to unlock them and while i enjoy running lords i also enjoy running sorcerors daemon princes my warp smith and my appstle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I did a math test once for equal points CSM of N vs PM and found that a full unit of 20 CSM usually beats PM because of quantity of attacks In melee ? because there is no way 20 csm can but 2 units of pms, the two units alone and the double of specials makes pm kill more and if one takes one unit of pms then it is even worse for the csm, as they have max 4 shots per turn that can hurt the pms rhinos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 In terms of MSU or 7 PM they are definitely better than CSM in every way. My post was talking about footslogging hordes of CSM focused on melee and probably with a HQ with them. 20 nurgle CSM with 2 PG and an extra CCW is 380 points which only gets you 14 PM. ALSO PM is only initiative 3... sometimes that really sucks I've found. (Cough Cough Chosen with power swords etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 CSMs and PMs have essentially identical damage output (which is to say, mediocre). The PMs big advantage lies in their durability. Fnp is a bit chancy (33%) to rely on, but it can occasionally save you from all kinds of crazy damage. So I want some other kinds of heavy hitter in my army to do the damage, while the PMs secure objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 hmmm more killy... Nurgle Bikers with 2x PG, champ has PF? Juggerlord with axe and 5x unmarked spawn retinue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Fluff wise think of Plague Marines like the Thousand Sons. They were the first to be corrupted in that fashion. You have the Thousand Sons who were forever changed with the Rubric and with the Plague Marines you have them as really Nurgle's first chosen of the Astartes that it corrupted. Fast forward ten thousand years and you have renegades (or members of the legions who have started to worship Nurgle or the Changer). Those who worship the almighty Changer are not Thousand Sons but they follow the same diety as the Thousand Sons and thus get those benefits but they aren't Thousand Sons as they were never apart of the legion nor did they suffer under the Rubric. Same logic can be applied to the Death Guard. Nurgle gifted them more because of who they are. Can Abby make more of them? Sure, he's had a few of their sorcerers move over to his side. Can the Death Guard make more? I don't see why not. But those who worship Nurgle aren't the original Death Guard Plague Marines, they are simply Chaos Marines who follow Nurgle. Hell you could apply this logic to the Emperor's Children or World Eaters as well. Do we see mechanical benefits on the tabletop? Not really, or I should say, not in the manner we should see it as, but fluff wise the distinction is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Xcapobl Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Choosing between CSM with MoN, or going the PM way, can also be a choice of versatility. There is no denying their ability to soak a lot of incoming fire, live through it, and then stick to an objective like a plague, expecially as they are fearless as well as very resilient. However, they have to have other units supporting them as their weakness lies in their limited choice of weaponry. They get their special weapons, but not their heavy bolter. They may be tough, but Plague Marines still die horribly against tanks such as Predators that use their autocannons from beyond that 24" Plasmagun range that Plague Marines can return fire with. CSM with MoN still have all the CSM weapon options, so here's to the Lascannon to bring down that pesky Lascannon / Missile Launcher Dreadnought. In the end, I have seen a lot of Nurgle based armies being very successfull because they took small PM squads to grab and hold objectives, while Nurglified CSM squads with their better Initiative stat (better than PM) handle the initial assaults and then move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 I only own one squad of pms but they dont seem to do much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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