HQ Librarian Dread

[awilden]

Forgive me if this has already been asked I did a search of the forum and found nothing.

 

I just wanted to double check about the number of attacks the dread librarian gets? From looking at the rules it looks like he doesn't get the +attach for having a furioso force halberd and power fist, but I have seen several off hand comments from codex reviews that it did

 

Are there any special rules in the big rule book about walkers that makes them ignore specialist? Like they ignore unwieldy?

 

So he has both a power fist and a furioso force halberd, the halberd doesn't have specialist but has force, the power fist seems to have specialist, both are Sx2 and AP2.This would mean he'll just have a completely useless power fist on one hand since the halberd would be completely superior, not like getting a power fist and lightning claws so you can pick which works best at any point (and obviously that has the +attack for both being specialist).

 

So it is no +attack right?

 

And is there something I'm missing about the power fist+halberd combo that's actually really good? or is it just a waste of an arm (aside for the build-in storm bolter/heavy flame/melta)?

[Jolemai]

Correct, there is no bonus for having two close combat weapons because the Furioso Force Halberd is not a Specialist Weapon. The Power Fist you need to think of as being the secondary weapon for when the FFH is destroyed and as a bonus, this arm allows the Dreadnought to do something in the shooting phase.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yes, he doesn't get the bonus attack.

 

Yes, it's basically a disadvantage. He has two fists, one of which is force weapon, the other of which is just an ordinary fist, with equal Strength.

 

Yes, I have been ninjaed.

[Frater Cornelius]

Walkers ignore the unwieldy rule.

[Jolemai]

Yes, he doesn't get the bonus attack.

Yes, it's basically a disadvantage. He has two fists, one of which is force weapon, the other of which is just an ordinary fist, with equal Strength.

Yes, I have been ninjaed.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

It would count as a dreadnought Close Combat weapon mate so strikes at initiative and gets any formation benefits and Special power rules for extra attacks etc.

[awilden]

Cool thanks for the replies, just wanted to double check on that in case there was some legit reason to get the +1 attack (which would have been a nice addition)

[TheSauce]

Anyone else thinking about fielding a libby dread? Probably not the most points-efficient option, but throwing out up to 6 s10 I7(or 8) force weapon attacks after only two warp charges seems like a great way to deal with some really tough units - Wraith Knights, riptides, chaos spawn, thunderwolves (if you get lucky).

 

I'll probably run mine charging out of a Stormraven, as that seems like the only viable way to deploy a CC dread.

[Brother apocalyptic]

This is where magic and warlord traits come in hand. He can be buffed up to 13 or so attacks at I10. Pretty handy imo.

[Blood Shadow]

Perhaps not the most points efficient but still cool, i'll be taking one

[librisrouge]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the DCCW get to act as the secondary weapon for the Halberd? I was under the impression (book is in storage from having moved) that specialist weapons could still be the secondary weapon for non-specialist weapons. Example, if a Captain has a Power Fist and Power Sword. If he uses the sword, he'd get a bonus attack. If he used the fist, he would not get the bonus attack. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Brother apocalyptic]

Nope. To benefit from an extra attack in cc, then either both weapons need the specialist rule or neither has it.

 

1. Lightning claw and powerfist gives 1 extra attack

2. Lightning claw and power axe doesnt give 1 extra attack

3. Power axe and power sword gives 1 extra attack

[Deschenus Maximus]

Gents,

 

A dread does get to ignore Specialist Weapon, due to the way the Walker and SW rules are worded:

 

Specialist Weapon:

 

"A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapones unless blah blah blah..."

 

Walker:

 

"If a walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapons after the first."

 

Since a walker gains +1 Attack for ever extra Melee weapon beyond the first rather than gaining +1 Attack for fighting with two Melee weapons, the Specialist Weapon provision do not apply. Don't know wether this is intended on GW's part or not, but RAW, it is what it is.

[Brother apocalyptic]

Deschenus Maximus.. No it doesnt. Its a rule written in for ork dreads and other walkers who arent limited to just 2 CCW. There is nothing that supercedes the "specialist" rule. Otherwise, there would be no use in giving the Blood talons the "specialist" rule.

The only benefit the dreadnought gets from fighting with the powerfist is that he ignores the "unwieldly" rule, still hitting on I4, instead of I1.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Deschenus Maximus.. No it doesnt. Its a rule written in for ork dreads and other walkers who arent limited to just 2 CCW. There is nothing that supercedes the "specialist" rule. Otherwise, there would be no use in giving the Blood talons the "specialist" rule.

 

The only benefit the dreadnought gets from fighting with the powerfist is that he ignores the "unwieldly" rule, still hitting on I4, instead of I1.

 

Doesn't matter in the least that he doesn't have more than 2 CCW. He still has more than 1 CCW, he thus gets an extra attack, RAW.

 

Blood Talons are specialist weapons because they are oversized lightning claws; for consistency's sake, they are specialist weapons like LCs.

[Brother apocalyptic]

And specialist RAW says noone gets an extra attack unless he is armed with 2 specialist weapons. If a dreadnought where an exception of this rule, it would state so in the specialist rule, just as it does in the unwieldly rule, but it doesnt.

 

About the blood talons. there is no use in giving them the specialist rule for consistency´s sake. Nothing else besides our dreads can use em, and if they ignore the specialist rule, why bother giving it to a dreadnought weapon?

[Deschenus Maximus]

And specialist RAW says noone gets an extra attack unless he is armed with 2 specialist weapons

 

No, that is not what it actualy says.

 

If a dreadnought where an exception of this rule, it would state so in the specialist rule, just as it does in the unwieldly rule, but it doesnt.

 

There is no need for an exception to be written because dreadnoughts don't get +1A for fighting with 2 CCW; they gain an extra attack per Melee weapon.

 

About the blood talons. there is no use in giving them the specialist rule for consistency´s sake. Nothing else besides our dreads can use em, and if they ignore the specialist rule, why bother giving it to a dreadnought weapon?

 

GW does plenty of completely pointless stuff. Why does a MotF have the option to take a power axe when it already has 2 servo arms, for example?

 

Comments in red.

[Brother apocalyptic]

Erhm, yes thats exactly what the specialist rule says.

"A model with this weapon does not recieve +1A for fighting with two weapons unless it is armed with two or more melee weapons with the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

A dreadnought is a model yes? Thus it follows the restrictions given by the above rule.

Unwieldy rule
"A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless its a MC or walker."

 

Walkers are removed from the above special rule, thus allowing them to use fists at I4.

 

Until GW makes clarification on this, ill play it by no extra attacks. Its iffy at best, now that Ive read through the walker rules a bit more and thought about it...

[Deschenus Maximus]

The thing is that a dread doesn't gain an extra attack for fighting with two CCW; it gains an extra attack for each CCW over the first one. Ergo, the provision of the first sentence of the Specialist Weapon doesn't even apply.

[Jolemai]

Then perhaps you can explain why the Chaos Defiler doesn't get it's full spread of attacks when being equipped with a Power Scourge?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Then perhaps you can explain why the Chaos Defiler doesn't get it's full spread of attacks when being equipped with a Power Scourge?

 

Where does it say it doesn't? It's not in CSM codex and it's not in the FAQ.

[Bukimimaru]

I was completely sold on the idea that the dread does not get an extra attack due to specialist weapon.

However, it does clearly state that the get an extra attack for every cc weapon after the first.

 

Seems to me that the two are not directly related. The dread doesn't get get an extra attack because of Specialist, but does get an unrelated extra attack because it has a second weapon.

 

Thoughts?

[Brother apocalyptic]

Then our dc dreads and furioso get both?

Meaning a dc dread shuffles around 7 attacks on the charge

[Jolemai]

 

Then perhaps you can explain why the Chaos Defiler doesn't get it's full spread of attacks when being equipped with a Power Scourge?

 

Where does it say it doesn't? It's not in CSM codex and it's not in the FAQ.

 

 

It doesn't simply because it is not a Specialist Weapon, hence why it's not included in the Codex or the FAQ because it doesn't need to be.

 

A Defiler has three attacks base, with four on the charge (which I'm going to denote as 3/4 A). It is equipped with two Power Fists (Specialist Weapons), a Battle Cannon, a Reaper Autocannon and a twin-linked Heavy Flamer (TLHF). As an option, it can replace the Reaper Autocannon with another Power Fist which gives it 4/5 A (which keeps in with the rule about Walkers getting +1 A for each extra arm after the first). Finally, it can replace the TLHF with a Power Scourge (STR 8, AP2, Melee, Flail) but by doing so, it stays at 4/5 A as the Scourge does not have the Specialist Weapon special rule. This doesn't stop the Defiler from using the Flail rule in combat, it just doesn't contribute to an extra attack.

 

If you don't believe it, feel free to bring it up in the Chaos fora or in the Official Rule fora.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Either way staying on a more posative less rules oriented post. (Sure this will get an errata as Librarian dreads are a bit of exception)

 

I personally find the Librarian Dread a very potent and dangerous foe to face should i be charged by it.

Its reasons like this I have a Lucious pattern Drop Pod. :D