Prot Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 As an exercise in Chaos-ology I wanted to keep going with Kranon's Helguard Dataslate Formation. Basically I don't see anyone really doing much with it on the internets, in the form of batreps or even list building, so here we go: Before diving into what I can/can't do and strategic thoughts, I'll put up my experiences thus far: +++ Link to first batrep using Helguard formation vs. Astra: 1850 Point batrep w/Pics (Maelstrom) +++ Link to my first 1850 list used in that game (discussion below): 1850 Maelstrom List. Overview: I'll try to keep this brief to get people up to date on what we're talking about here, and the best way to move forward with the list/formation and its tactics. +++ Kranon's Helguard Dataslate Formation: Where is it? It is available for purchase at the Black Library website as part of the 2014 Christmas Advent Calendar: Linked here. (it's only 2-3 bucks depending on your currency) +++ Kranon's Helguard Formation: What is it? Basically if you look at the Gamesworkshop Dark Vengeance expansion box set, then you're looking at the Formation, adding what you got in the Chaos portion of the Dark Vengeance 2 player set. +++ Why take the formation? The Crimson Slaughter are inherently an army of fear. While regular chaos is not, this lends that ability to them as well Stubborn. Additionally there are other benefits. Without giving to much away, you can leverage the formation to create a ballistic penalty to your opponent and create a -1 leadership penalty. Helguard The Basics: +++ At a base average cost of approximately 1,000 pts this has some inherent advantages and disadvantages. +++ The formation, in my experience, averages out to approximately 1,000 points as a base for your army list. You can take other detachments but depending on your average game sizes, this may not be feasible. +++ Advantage: Multiple units, with larger numbers per unit, make it easier to put the formation to good use. Since most of the formation requires you to be within 12" of your opponent, this is best achieved by increasing squad sizes where profitable to do so. (IE: You probably don't want a maximum sized Raptor squad, however you might want to flesh out Cultists for a cheap expansion to the formation.) +++ Advantage: The formation (rules) lends itself to close combat nicely. The formation is fairly easy to fit into the close combat role, however it is worth noting you will be missing some very key close combat pieces. +++ Disadvantage: Large base cost. Does not leave flexibility in smaller games. I guess Kranon likes to roll big time, and you don't have a choice in this. +++ Disadvantage: No Objective Secured. Having a base cost of 1K and no objective secured is really tough on someone like myself who plays most Maelstrom missions. +++ Disadvantage: Undesirables. The base formation forces a few units you may not want to take... or at least in a form you would not normally take them. Helguard Formation My Experience and Tactica: +++ Without giving too much away, (in case you're reading the first batrep I posted above), the result gave me some instant feedback on what I should have done. +++ I think the formation is highly geared for close combat but fitting in the primary units you'd like to is very hard: - Cultists. These guys never do well for me and you don't get any advantage of a survivable nature for them in this formation. Perhaps a secondary Detachment HQ could help this. - CSM. Not too bad. I actually have a better appreciation for 'base' CSM now, dual armed, rhino squads. - Chosen + Draznicht + Kranon +/- Landraider: Nice, but expensive combo. Draznicht is key here. Kranon won't miss much and once his sword gets juiced up he's pretty respectable. Khârn is still better out of the box, and some games simply do NOT give you the ramp up time needed for the Blade of the Relentless. Normally I play Kranon with Possessed because he fits in well there, and Possessed are troops for me, but this felt much better... and cheaper! +++ Detachment/Allies Strategies: Here's what I'm thinking now that I've seen the list in action... - I have to figure out an HQ that fits. I thought of a Balestar Sorc (too expensive?), I tried a Dark Apostle but I believe I used him wrong (he was with CSM when he SHOULD have been binding the 2 mandatory cultist squads). I considered a 'stay home' squad behind an Aegis using the Cultists, a Quad, and a Warpsmith, but it's too defensive in this formation. And finally I even thought of adding more CC with a Mace, MoN DP but it's just so cost prohibitive. Not sure what to do here. - Spawn. The Baledrake is nice and it does fit in, however in the interest of advancing several cultists and flooding my opponent with targets, I am thinking of having the Landraider and 3 Spawns with MoN lead the rush. This might be a 'staple' in the formation. - Maulerfiend. Always a 'good' unit, and great in this formation. Unfortunately I can never seem to fit another one in. - Secondary Troops. I used CSM. I could add possessed but the formation is already too expensive. I'm thinking more CSM or just giving up on the idea of additional troops. - This leads me to: Helbrute Formation. Not a helcult.. I'm thinking of just adding the one with 3 Helbrutes to deep srtike. This could kill me though for objective secured. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 This could kill me though for objective secured. Just wipe your oppent army out & you'll not have to worry about objects........... or that least that my excuse when gaming! Thanks for the write up on the Helguard Formation Prot. As always the Battle report are really great & how you've found the units during the games & just in general battle report are really cool. Have you got any games line up with the Helguard formation soon? This leads me to: Helbrute Formation. Not a helcult.. I'm thinking of just adding the one with 3 Helbrutes to deep srtike. This could kill me though for objective secured. I'm going to try out the Mayhem pack myself. Just somthing I though would be cool model & image/theme/story & to be honsty I've not use any formation in any of my games. How are you planning on running your own Mayhem pack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Given the harder hitting units in the formation, what about Typhus, Plague Zombies and Plauge Marines in Rhinos for objective sitting? The Plague Zombies are cheap, and Typhus could potentially fit into the Land Raider too with Kranon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 This could kill me though for objective secured. Just wipe your oppent army out & you'll not have to worry about objects........... or that least that my excuse when gaming! Thanks for the write up on the Helguard Formation Prot. As always the Battle report are really great & how you've found the units during the games & just in general battle report are really cool. Have you got any games line up with the Helguard formation soon? This leads me to: Helbrute Formation. Not a helcult.. I'm thinking of just adding the one with 3 Helbrutes to deep srtike. This could kill me though for objective secured. I'm going to try out the Mayhem pack myself. Just somthing I though would be cool model & image/theme/story & to be honsty I've not use any formation in any of my games. How are you planning on running your own Mayhem pack? - Thanks IP. I was potentially running Helguard again this week against unknown opponents... But I may try a new necron formation, then again I just painted up a bunch of Ultra's!!! I still have intent to do more with the Helguard, but I have to be honest I'm surprised at the lack of interest in the formation. I guess people wanted more from it.... - If I were to run Mayhem alongside this formation, I am basically giving up on obsec.... And quite honestly aside from my last game, I rarely get close to wiping anyone out these days. lol BUT since we do play Maelstrom to keep everyone honest, it's huge to have obsec.... it would be a risky gamble to drop it entirely. But my own variant had 2 x Plasma Cannons, (one flail for fun) and an MM Helbrute. The riskiest deep strike going to the MM Helbrute. Given the harder hitting units in the formation, what about Typhus, Plague Zombies and Plauge Marines in Rhinos for objective sitting? The Plague Zombies are cheap, and Typhus could potentially fit into the Land Raider too with Kranon. - You know this is a really good idea, especially considering Maelstrom, however for my purposes I'm trying to keep it Crimson Slaughter, but that sounds solid too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 What about a couple of cheap csm blobs with 2 plasma? can just sit on a objective for you + add in a bare bones sorceror on telepathy and with telepathy you have a good chance of getting some nice powers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 AFAIK Typhus can be selected as part of a Crimson Slaughter detachment, whether you use the actual model or build a "counts as" to represent a Nurgle covenant within the warband and you still get normal Crimson Slaughter rules (Cause Fear, take Possessed as troops, Slave to the Voices). I've been looking at it recently as my next wave of expansion to my own Crimson Slaughter warband, to build a Nurgle contingent with Cultists at the core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 How does it beat armies that are faster then you and melee is a problem. Like necron or nids ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 What about a couple of cheap csm blobs with 2 plasma? can just sit on a objective for you + add in a bare bones sorceror on telepathy and with telepathy you have a good chance of getting some nice powers - I like this... I have remade another list and oddly enough I put the Dark Apostle with the wargear from the Crimson Slaughter supplement. The idea being to go full on forward but lend 'Zealot' to both squads of Cultists while doing so. - However, like Jeske says Chaos isn't the supreme assaulter of 40K and I like your idea because one thing I've learned from my time with Ultra's is not to underestimate the good old bolter en mass. I may change to this idea instead, but then I still have an issue with what to do with the Cultists who feel rather useless without some sort of 'boost'. AFAIK Typhus can be selected as part of a Crimson Slaughter detachment, whether you use the actual model or build a "counts as" to represent a Nurgle covenant within the warband and you still get normal Crimson Slaughter rules (Cause Fear, take Possessed as troops, Slave to the Voices). I've been looking at it recently as my next wave of expansion to my own Crimson Slaughter warband, to build a Nurgle contingent with Cultists at the core. - I do think that's a great idea but I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm trying to keep the list pure CS. The only issue I see with this is staggering your plethora of cultsists properly because you're going to have two formation squads, and two non-formation squads on the table. How does it beat armies that are faster then you and melee is a problem. Like necron or nids ? - I don't know. I think you should try it and let us know how it goes.... The point of the thread is to get exchange ideas, and create an area where we can see what works and what doesn't. I've only played one game with the formation. The lists can only be as flexible as the portion -outside- of the formation allows. Nids are a very real possibility for me to face, but I mostly play Crons in my area. I do like the idea of playing Nids though. Keep in mind we're mostly Maelstrom so it doesn't always benefit you to leave homebase and leave a gap on your table edge (I've countered those kinds of Nid lists with Ultra's and pods for instance). I don't think I'd change the list as much as I'd change my playing style. There are so many flavours of Nids right now... I've played against all the new stuff, and the biggest change is those bloody pods add a lot of function back into units that used to be dead for nids. I'd definitely play more reserved against them. My list definitely needs tweaks anyway..... I am hoping more people actually try the formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I find vanilla csm are actually under rated tbh. i use mine with mark of nurgle they always outpeform what i expect them to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 19, 2014 Author Share Posted December 19, 2014 Okay I made 1.64 Billion LISTS with this formation. I posted up a very risky variant, especially for a Maelstrom environment with no ObSec! We're talking a heavy deepsrtike assault force with bulking up the formation to add to it's probable success of reducing BS, and applying Fear. However, it uses the Helbrute Formation as well, and is still trying to keep a short range, dynamic shooty element. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300721-prots-second-crack-at-helguard-1850-risky-attempt/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic63 Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Lol if you take a Crimson Slaughter Helguard Formation and a Crimson Slaughter Combined Arms Detachment, your Crimson Slaughter army can have two Draznicht's Ravagers! Double Preferred Enemy power! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 20, 2014 Author Share Posted December 20, 2014 Lol if you take a Crimson Slaughter Helguard Formation and a Crimson Slaughter Combined Arms Detachment, your Crimson Slaughter army can have two Draznicht's Ravagers! Double Preferred Enemy power! Wow. You just blew my mind. lol That is incredibly cheezy, but I am finding Draznicht to be the best thing since sliced bread. Here's my thing about the formation: - bottom line it's a mechanic for close combat - but... big but here... it is severely lacking in shooting So the list I made is slightly illegal I'm looking to fix it within an hour or I won't have time make it work before I go for a game and my second list is the new DA Librarius Covenant formation or the new Necron Formations.... I have to try to fix this list because I gotta say, it was a fun formation and I'm shocked no one else has tried it/and/or reported on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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