ThatOneMarshal Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Hey guys so I'm building my furioso right now and I was wondering how you guys are feeling about dreadnoughts in the new book? I'm building my furruios with the option to go blood talons and frag cannons which is nice. Do you guys feel the new book nerfed or buffed the dreads? Will you take manga grapples or smoke launcher? Also for the fragioso I'm trying to figure melta gun or heavy flamer. Heavy flamer helps with the anti infantry roll that the fragioso has but the melta gun helps it become more of a generalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marine7312000 Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I think with fragioso you should focus more on sticking with their anti-infantry role and keep the flamer. Two template weapons = double the fun. With the double Blood talons, that's when I'd keep the melta gun and stormbolter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Blood Talons aren't worth it. Shred on S10 is overkill. Save the 10 pts. As for fragiosos, I'd stick with Melta. By the time you've finished firing the frag cannon, there's a good chance there won't be much left for the flamer to hit, so might as well leave the melta on and go for a more generalist dread. Magna grapple ALWAYS. As for buff or nerf, it's pretty clear they got nerfed. Fragioso costs more, blood talons are the suck, and while magna grapples are free now, they lost the S8 Ap2 shooting attack too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 Would you guys think the furiosos and DC dreadnought are still useful even with the nerfs or are they going on the shelf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 They're still awesome, just less the all-purpose death machine they used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 I prefer to keep melta with Fragioso. Been able to test Libby dread now, with the new primaris he seems decent. Pretty nice that you can challenge with him. The other CC dreads are kinda meh. DC with WS4, and Furioso usually has less attacks than the Libby and no force, for MC's or other challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 Would you guys think the furiosos and DC dreadnought are still useful even with the nerfs or are they going on the shelf? DC dread is a non-starter. The Furioso with frag cannon is good. I don't think non-frag version is worth it. It's always going to have one less template than the fragioso, it costs 5 more points (if you upgrade the bolter to a HF) and all it has is an extra CC attack. Not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I'm leaning towards flamer for both actually. Frag dread has lost his generalist role for me. The loss of magna grapple shot made the lonely melta a very unreliable high S shot, better to focus on anti infantry and eliminate another 'to hit' roll from the game. So far I haven't found the double template to be overkill. Very nice for clearing out any open topped vehicles as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caine 24th Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I've been thinking a lot about this one as I've often run a lot of dreads. I've been positive about most the codex changes but the loss of the S8 AP2 grapple hurt. I get the impression that dreadnoughts are to be used specifically for hth now. S10 AP2 at initiative attacks with 13 armor is good. Slow movement is a problem. The chief problem is a close combat unit in a drop pod is not optimal as you're getting shot before you charge. With Front 13 they usually can still survive fairly well. Stormravens I suppose could carry them, but that's not Turn 1 and it's expensive/risky. GW seems to have considered this with a free magna grapple. Psykers coming down in nearby pods I think is the way to help these guys get better. Those powers are very good for dreadnoughts (+D3 A & I & fleet to chase infantry down; or rage; or use wings to move a unit forward to help cover the dread; or use the -2 leadership test to get an infantry unit out of the dread's way; or use blood lance to help kill a tank threatening the dread). Alternatively the divination discipline could help with re-rolls to hit or maybe a +4 invuln. The problem here is that it's hard to position multiple psykers in range to help, and psykers are expensive (at some point their points might be better spent elsewhere). I guess what I'm saying is dreads just don't have enough attacks to be really scary, but with some buffs they can be a real threat. So maybe mix close combat dreads with sternguard and psykers. The availability of codex powers like this might be an overall buff--just more risky. If Corbulo is nearby he could help too (+1I, WS as it looks like the grail applies to all BA units w/in 6"). The formations help with +1I. Getting back to the point, having access to these powers helps the close combat version much more, not the frag version so much. The frag cannon load out has been effective in the past for me. A heavy flamer might be nice, but those templates have limited range for what they can be killing, and it might be overkill. Then again, with a drop pod you can get close to a squad to get a good position. This isn't a bad way to get first blood, if not a slightly expensive way to kill some backfield infantry. You might want to ask yourself, if the enemy brings infantry in cover what can my blood angels bring to get them out? If you build 3 frag cannon dreads, you could really hurt an infantry line badly. These guys would be tough, and you'd just have to anticipate using some other part of your army to do the heavy lifting for killing tanks or close combat. It's true even a single powerfist can threaten about anything, they just don't have a lot of attacks. The extra points for the frag cannon now isn't world ending, it just seems like a little extra encouragement from GW to go a different way. Extra armor still seems expensive. I really wish they could have more weapon options. Alright, sorry this turned into a full on ramble. But, good luck and let me know if you have any luck fielding dreadnoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Psykers coming down in nearby pods I think is the way to help these guys get better. Those powers are very good for dreadnoughts (+D3 A & I & fleet to chase infantry down; Don't think you can cast Quickening on Dreadnoughts. I don't have the book in front of me, but I recall it was only for Characters or the Psyker himself. So a Librarian Dread can do it, but not anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caine 24th Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 You're right, I missed that, no quickening on Furiosos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I think the basic Furioso with Fists and a Heavy Flamer upgrade is the bee's knees. I'm not sold on the Blood Talons (Shred on S10? No thanks). The S6 Frag Cannon is nice, but since I'd definitely want to keep my Meltagun I'm in effect losing 1 S5 template and replacing it with 2 S6 templates. Do I really need this? Especially considering I lose 1 S10 melee attack at initiative in return? I'm not so sure. So yeah, I'll build myself a Furioso, using the Chaplain Dreadnought body, I'll paint the Frag Cannon and Blood Talons to keep them around as an option, but I'll certainly field the Fisterioso more often than not. The DC Dread for me is a No-Go. AV12 melee dreadnought in an Elite slot - no thanks. I may actually build a Castor at some point though. One more thing; If you want a cheap dreadnought to go in and grab you a first blood, then go ahead and explode something nasty - the Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer dreadnought in a pod is still a great choice for low point games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 The S6 Frag Cannon is nice, but since I'd definitely want to keep my Meltagun I'm in effect losing 1 S5 template and replacing it with 2 S6 templates. Do I really need this? Especially considering I lose 1 S10 melee attack at initiative in return? I'm not so sure. Think which is more useful overall. Two S6 rending autohits on vehicles will complement the melta much better than a single S5 non-rending autohit. And when shooting at infantry it's a no-brainer. The extra S10 attack doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I am also planning on building a Cassor model although I will probably magenetize the storm bolter so I can upgrade to the heavy flamer if I have the Elite slot spare. While a DC dread is not as good as a Furioso IMHO, being a Troop unit makes a big difference in Cassor's case. Also I was planning to run a Stormraven for AA with a cheap CC Scout unit aboard so Cassor can ride into combat that way. AV12 is less of a problem when assaulting directly off the Stormraven. That means I can cover my Troops choices, delivery for them, air-cover and some bonus AT firepower for under 400 points (if I go bare-bones). While Tactical squads are still useful and flexible, they lose OS compared to their codex counterparts and benefit a lot less from the Furious Change and Red Thirst than more CC oriented units. Both Cassor and the Scouts can hit pretty hard on the turn they charge and will be great for lending asault support from Turn 3 onwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 The S6 Frag Cannon is nice, but since I'd definitely want to keep my Meltagun I'm in effect losing 1 S5 template and replacing it with 2 S6 templates. Do I really need this? Especially considering I lose 1 S10 melee attack at initiative in return? I'm not so sure. Think which is more useful overall. Two S6 rending autohits on vehicles will complement the melta much better than a single S5 non-rending autohit. And when shooting at infantry it's a no-brainer. The extra S10 attack doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. That's really situational; would you rather fire 1 Meltagun, 2 S6 rending templates and charge with A1 S10 AP2 at AV13+ or Fire a Meltagun, fire an S5 template and charge in with A2 S10 AP2 at AV13+? The way I see it, as long as you find something to charge at, the extra S10 AP2 provides more guaranteed points back.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 That's really situational; would you rather fire 1 Meltagun, 2 S6 rending templates and charge with A1 S10 AP2 at AV13+ or Fire a Meltagun, fire an S5 template and charge in with A2 S10 AP2 at AV13+? The way I see it, as long as you find something to charge at, the extra S10 AP2 provides more guaranteed points back.. How many AV 13+ vehicles are in the game, though? That's why I think the fragioso is way more useful overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 That's really situational; would you rather fire 1 Meltagun, 2 S6 rending templates and charge with A1 S10 AP2 at AV13+ or Fire a Meltagun, fire an S5 template and charge in with A2 S10 AP2 at AV13+? The way I see it, as long as you find something to charge at, the extra S10 AP2 provides more guaranteed points back.. How many AV 13+ vehicles are in the game, though? That's why I think the fragioso is way more useful overall. Depends on the army I would face, I suppose; but the counter argument is, how many Furiosos are in the game, and how many other units can take out infantry with templates? My Sternguard podders with 2x HF and Dragonfire bolts will melt any bunkered up squad easily.. Furiosos strength is its AV13, and S10 at Initiative. You want to make it walk into hard nuts. I want it to instagib Paladins and the like, rip open AV13/14. Even my Tactical squad could charge and beat down Tau in cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 The same argument could be made for AV13/14 - how many units in our codex make great melta delivery systems? A lot. As for instagibbing Pallies, how often do you run into them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroCompanyHQ Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Don't think you can cast Quickening on Dreadnoughts. I don't have the book in front of me, but I recall it was only for Characters or the Psyker or himself. So a Librarian Dread can do it, but not anyone else. There is one another Character Dread, other than the Librarian... Cassor the Freeking Damned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DexC Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 There is one another Character Dread, other than the Librarian... Cassor the Freeking Damned! Yeah, but then you have to put up with him constantly referring to himself in the third person. Very tedious after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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