Decapitating Strike Tactics

[defl0]

New to the board and building a Raven Guard army for adepticon! Trying to solidify my thoughts on some tactics. I'm assuming I'm using decapitating strike. 

 

IMO the real strength of RG, are extra resilience from cameleoline, first/second turn alpha strike from Maun + Decapitating strike, free infiltrate and free furious charge.

 

The whole point of the list is to hit early and hit hard. If it doesn't hit reliably turn 1 or 2 it's out of the list. 

 

1. Cameleoline.

- Basically 3+ cover or 2+ if you go to ground is pretty huge. 

- Always give this to Maun

- Consul should take it 

- Decapitating strike caps consuls, but not legion centurions. So you can actually spam to 3 squads. Shame apothecaries aren't ICs.

- What's your go to troop choices? 20 tacs with extra hth wpn, srg with articifer with Maun and an apothecary seem like a super hard unit to move outside of hth. Or do you min out to sink th opints into more specialist fire power turn one. 

 

2. Infiltrate. 

- Sets up after opponent

- Side shots on vehicles - infiltrating dev squads

- Saves points on transports or Can infiltrate transports

- Can infiltrate jump packs - HUGE!

- Makes foot slogging hth viable

- Makes short range weapons viable

 

3. Furious charge.

- Screams use infiltrating dark fury and infiltrating characters with jump packs. Assault marines seems too expensive.

- Destroyer squads seems tempting too, but god are they expensive. They seem better is a small unit in a rhino. 

- Terminators with axes seem like a really good deal for RG. On the charge gives them S6 AP2. The only viable way to run them seems in an assault vehicle. Probably a storm eagle or land raider. Is there a way to get them into a drop pod? 

 

4. Re Rolling Reserves

- Drop pods. At first I loved the concept of them, but it looks like interceptor is handed out like candy! Does anything ever survive to shoot? Or is the trick just to stay inside and shout out as an open topped transport?

- Death storm drop pods. These actually seem pointed pretty well. I figure you can get 3 missile bays shooting a turn so basically 20 pts a crack missile. 

- Drop pods with dreads. Seem solid option. 

- Storm Eagles, fire raptor, Cestus. All good options, but man are they expensive, and do they survive? Seems like Sicarians, dreads, dev squads, and contemplators have a pretty good chance of taking you out. Granted if you get rid of those units air supremacy seems strong in 30k. So you just use these units as transports or that's too risky, so just gun boats?

- Does the cestus just break units everywhere? I mean it could move 36" and tank shock / force moral checks on a ton of squads. 

- out flank doesn't seem great for RG. Or am i missing something? Why outflank when you can just start where you want to?

- one speeder with multi melta seems a no brainer.

- Assault weapons / combi weapons. So major question with this ROW, what's the best pod squad? Mor Deythans are cheapest/ hardest hitting, assault squads are cheap 5 man units, and seekers have flexibility.  I'm tempted to do 2 X 5 MG assault squads and a Mor Deythan with 10 combi plasma. Thoughts?

 

5. Maun as a spotter

- Master of signals

- 3 Medusas?

- scorpius?

- Or is the best hvy choice a dev squad that can auto eliminate a vehicle of your choice. Especially viable with side armor shots from infiltration. Or soemthing like the scarius tank or fire raptor a more obvious choice because they round out the list.

 

 

So viable units look like:

- Maun

- tacs maybe with apothecaries

- drop assault weapons (support squads, seekers, mor deythan)

- dark fury (if you attack an IC with void shield)

- Infiltrating devs

- destroyers in rhino

- contemptor in pod

- death storms

- storm eagle

- bunch of different hvy choices 

- speeder

 

Am I missing any major units?

 

 

[Komrk]

Mor Deythan, their one time use ability can be devastating. How I Kit them doesn't really work well for your list but they can definitely be kitted to fit it.

[defl0]

How do your equip them? Do you go snipers?

 

I'm fond of the 5 shot guns and the 2 flamers too. 

[Slips]

I would prefer to equip them with combi- weapons an shove them into a darwking storm eagle.

 

Granted my RG plan is an Air Force Decapitating strike / Angels Wrath.

 

Giving them combi-plasmas and activating their rules at rapid fire will bring the pain.

[defl0]

do you prefer the dark wing storm eagle over the standard? No multi melta option is a super bummer for me. especially with the hvy restriction.

 

Also, when it comes to the storm eagle and combi weapons, this is my issue. 32 point for a mor deythan combi vs 42 pts verse a termi with a combi.

 

So for 10 points more I get 2+/4++ and a 3 X S6 Ap2. 

 

Granted in an infiltrating rhino or drop pods, the mor dythan are much more of an impact buy, but in a storm eagle even with the hitting on a 2+ the termies are far superior. 

[Slips]

Well, being able to give Twin-Link and Rending to a Combi-Plasma/Flamer seems like a good enough reason to me. Especially when you have 10 of them.

 

The Darkwing has Outflank and Stealth so it can come on where you need to while having a 3+ jink save. Keep it away from Sicarians, obviously. And while Terminators and Vet Tacs can take them as Dedicated Transports too, Mor Deythan are better than Vet Tacticals (imo) and you can only get 8 Terminators into the Darkwing at most; not considering any characters you attack to the unit.

 

And while Blind isn't as good as it used to be, having missiles that cause concussive can be a great boon when the Embarked unit face CC beast units like Templar Brethren, Palatine Blade, Phoenix Guard, pretty much anything World Eaters, Raven Guard Dark Furies, etc. and don't wipe them out entirely.

 

Also, it lets you take MORE Storm Eagles in your Elites slot (dedicated Transports), Fast Attack (standard Storm Eagles) and the one Fire Raptor in Heavy Support when using the RoW.

 

Granted, assembling that many storm eagles is akin to self-inflicted torture due to how notoriously hard they can be to put together.

[defl0]

Yeah, i guess the twin linking helps. Just, for fun here is the math. Honestly they are pretty close.

 

Point for point. 210 pts = 5 combi plasma termies = 6.5 Mordethan combi flamers. Let's be generous and assume 5 hits per flamer.

 

Mor Deythan = 32.5 hits, 5.21 rends, 24.35 regular wounds. Can't charge. = 13.31 dead marines

Termies, with axes= 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 5.53 AP2 wounds, charge, 15 attacks, 6.22 AP2. = 12.17 dead marines

 

Granted, termies might die on the way in or have an over heat. Unless blind missile are successful. Mor Deythan, get better aganst GEQs or units in cover and Termies would be better against other termies. Termies are also better going forward, while mor deythan's have blown their load. Termies also can threaten vehicles. 

[Nusquam]

Mor Deythan can charge after a Fatal Strike.

 

I always take Mor Deythan in a Darkwing. Their ability to take out just about anything depending on kit and flexibility are a must for me.

 

Outflanking is good for what the name inplies, flanking a target. Coupled with Corax giving Outflankers Acute Senses it has two effects: Psychological. it forces opponents to be careful about putting things too close to board edges, especially when those things can do some serious damage. They may have to ball up and makes them susceptible to all sorts of things. And the other is positioning. Getting next to objectives, juicy targets, rear armor and backfield elements like devs or MoS makes for some precise and devastating strikes.

 

Jump Infantry can't infiltrate, they were very specific in wording when they listed "Jump Infantry" get Furious Charge while "Infantry" get infiltrate. Yes Jump Infantry follow the rules for infantry, they are still a different entity.

 

Didn't know the Legion Pods didn't force you out when they landed. That is very nifty.

 

I always run my Decap Strike with pods to take out a key unit or two and disrupt as much as possible. The ability to take pods without forcing everything into needing to be deepstrike capable is a huge boon.

[defl0]

Not with combi  weapons... they are rapid fire. Even combi flamers. Sure with shot guns and flamers, yeah. 

 

As for outflanking, I think it moves some unit central or they deny flank and maybe strand you units on one board edge. Acute senses helps. I just can't imagine justifying out flanking Corax. I mean he won't even get to assault something unit turn 3 which mean you wasted him half the game. Especially with decapitating strike being so damage forward in the turns. Some thing like a Dark Wing, i get it, you can get side shots on tanks. But hth centric units seem like a fail.

 

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the infiltrating jump packs. Jump infantry is not a classification. In 40k, there are several instances this comes up and its played that the units get both rules. It specifically says to play it that way in the rule book. "Jump Infantry follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry." It's like saying a "jump monstrous creature" can't get the war gear for monstrous creatures because it's a "jump monstrous creature"... it's just not played that way,

 

7th ed. Rules

 

"Unlike most other unit type

categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it

occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous

Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two

sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry

would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry."

 

And it's been this way for editions...

 

6th ed.

 

"Unlike most unit type categories, jump is not a classification in an of it's self. Instead, you find it before another category." blah blah blah. "Jump infantry follow rules for jump units and infantry"

 

As for drop pods, yeah, they don't have the rule that kicks you out like 40k drop pods. It's under the transport capacity in standard drop pods. Interestingly enough it mean you could technically re embark into them as well, which might make sense late game on objectives.

 

I agree, being able to take a few drop pods is strong. I just know that when i play my ig against drop pod marines, I just bubble wrap my tanks and the meltas in pods are useless. And what i think RG need is ways to take out tanks early. So I'm trying to brain storm alternatives to drop pods that aren't in the heavy slot. I think the short answer is that there isn't an obvious choice for raven guard.

 

Interestingly, Mor Deythan squads with rending combi plasma infiltrating into side armor is pretty much as good as it gets. Death Winds on the flanks isnt horrible either. Maybe javlins with lascannon. 

 

The other option is to feed your enemy units early and wait for the flying cav to come in. So drop pods and infiltry turn one and storm eagle and fire raptors turn two.

[Nusquam]

The flamer section is just that, a flamer. It's assault 1, one use, template. Pg176 BRB. Rapid fire isn't even compatible with a template. So they can charge.

 

Corax gives all Legoines Astartes(Raven Guard) Acute Senses for outflanking. So that can be outflanking rhinos, land raiders, Storm Eagles etc.

 

It's not that Jump Infantry doesn't behave like infantry or share a lot with them. It's that they went out of their way to list specifically what gets what. The way they listed it made them a separate entity from regular Infantry as well as giving Terminator armour their own identity for the sake of the list. If they wanted to give them Infiltrate I feel they would have written "Infantry and Jump Infantry(except models with Terminator armour of any type)" since they were so specific in assigning rules that "Jump Infantry, Bikes and Jetbikes, Infantry in Terminator Armour" get FC.

[defl0]

Thank you sir. I stand corrected. It looks like they updated that rule in 7th. 

 

I actually see it completely the opposite. They gave infiltrate to infantry and went out of there way to exclude a certain type of infantry. Infantry with terminator armor. Because unlike like jump packs they didn't want to give terminators both the rule sets. 

 

The game is additive with all it's rules. A dedicated transport is still a transports. A flying monstrous creature is still a monstrous creature. This isn't some one off exception in the game. 

[Nusquam]

FW are known to deviate from the standard and GW at times aren't aware of all interactions. I still stand by the idea that if they wanted it, they would have said it given how specific they were. The inverse is true of what you said, if they wanted to give FC to all infantry barring those without a jump pack they could have said that too. So I'll agree to disagree.

[defl0]

Sure. I mean play as you want. It's really not hugely more powerful one way or another considering you can't charge first player turn anyway. 

 

I try to avoid playing anything RAI instead of RAW. RAW, I can say Jump infantry follow all rules for Jump Infantry and Infantry, because that's what the rules say. I can't really prove RAI... But neither requires any sort of rules stretch. 

 

It's the same thing as drop pods. Who know. Maybe the forced disembarking was an oversight. Or maybe it wasn't. Same thing as melta mombs not being melta weapons. 

 

That aside, playing it RAW does open up some fun and characterful Raven Guard lists though. An all infiltrating, angle's wrath,  jump pack list becomes interesting. It also makes non decapitating strike list more fun and varied. 

[defl0]

Anyway, so with Mor Deythan being able to charge, here are the new numbers.

Point for point. 210 pts = 5 combi plasma termies = 6.5 Mordethan combi flamers. Let's be generous and assume 5 hits per flamer.

Mor Deythan = 32.5 hits, 5.21 rends, 24.35 regular wounds. 22 attacks, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds = 15.14 dead marines

Termies, with axes= 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 5.53 AP2 wounds, charge, 15 attacks, 6.22 AP2. = 12.17 dead marines

So yeah, Mor Deythan are better one turn killers than termies. And they can sweep. But termies are pretty damn close and are more resilient and hit harder in later turns.

Interestingly, 7 Dark Furies are 210 points and are right in the same range. 6 shots, 4 hit, 2 wound. Assault = 28 attacks, 14 hits, 12.84 dead marines. If you blind the unit it goes up to 16.08 dead marines, if you don't lose any on the way in. Granted they are not scoring...

Note: Fun fact I discovered today. Shroud grenades count as defensive grenades. Which have the blind rule. A third of the time your opponent is blinded and become WS1

[defl0]

Do you guys run the dark wing naked? Or do you add anything like ceremite armor?

 

Also, interesting side note. Decapitating strike gives you a 70% chance to first. So Maun gives you an additional 10%. So Maun with decapitating strike is a 80% go first combo. Fierce.

[Nusquam]

I keep it light. it works out of the box well and it's easy to avoid enemy melta or at least mitigate it.

[defl0]

Also, Does Nex count as a consul for the decapitating strike ROW? Seems like he should but it doesn't really seem like there are rules to prevent Nex, Maun and a consul.

[Slips]

I'd count him as a Preator because he has the "Master of the Legion" Rule which is only found on Preators, Equivalents and Primarchs.

[defl0]

Nex not Maun. Nex doesn't have a master of the legion rule

[Slips]

Nex not Maun. Nex doesn't have a master of the legion rule

Man that 12h jetlagg is getting me.

 

Hes a Moritat. Done. No need to scratch your head anymore than that.

[defl0]

Has anyone tried Maun and deepstriking javelins?

 

It seems that for 90 points 2 havoks, 2 hunter killer and a multi melti is a nasty little package in the side armor of most tanks. 

 

60 point throw away speeders seems interesting as well. Or 75 points if you add the graviton gun. 

[Nusquam]

65 for the graviton gun on a normal speeder. Javelins can't get them. Which I think is best considering Haywire. 195 for 3 or you could get a Lightning with 4 Kraken Pen missiles for 185, 210 and you get Strafing Run and Tank Hunters.

 

I think they would be much better suited for anti-infantry. 75 a pop for a Havoc and Culverin to drown in wounds. Plus the range allows for them to hang back behind ruins and harass targets from afar. Too close and they just get shredded by bolters.

[defl0]

Hmmm... Yeah, you make a good point from a points efficiency perspective. A Xerxes is basically a 200 pts auto erase button. 

 

That said, I was thinking 3 separate drops plus your other pods and deep strikers helps them get past the interceptor units. 

 

The three units I want to be able to handle early are the sicarian, the scorpius and the spartan. Lol and a lot of armies take one of each at least! 

[defl0]

FW confirmed that they don't let RG assault marines infiltrate in their studio games. 

 

Apparently it will be covered in their next FAQ.

[Tiger9gamer]

I didnt think that would happen anyways. just seems hard with a giant freaken jet pack on your back.