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The Oath Keepers: AoA(DA) successor that abandons the Hunt

Hunt for the Fallen DIY chapter Dark Angels Chapter Angels of Vengeance Chapter Libators Chapter Angels of Absolution Chapter

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#26
Welcheren

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Thanks. I might. Although if I choose to take it a tad further I might reconsider the termination of said chapter. As a minor matter I am also considering a change in name... something ironic like the Oath Keepers. 

 

The main point was to elicit debate. So far, I think there is a wealth of thought-provoking stuff here, and what you have added about the Knights adds more value.



#27
Conn Eremon

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For what it's worth, I would be vastly more interested in a Chapter named 'Oath Keepers' over one called the 'Zealots Echelon.' The latter feels super bulky both on the tongue and mentally, and I can't tell if it's intended to be the X Echelon, or the Zealots X (along the lines of the Angels X). This really less a vote for Oath Keepers and more a vote against Zealots Echelon.


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#28
Aqui

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Thanks. I might. Although if I choose to take it a tad further I might reconsider the termination of said chapter. As a minor matter I am also considering a change in name... something ironic like the Oath Keepers. 
 
The main point was to elicit debate. So far, I think there is a wealth of thought-provoking stuff here, and what you have added about the Knights adds more value.


Depends on whether or not the name "Oath Keepers" refers to keeping the "Unforgiven" Oath of keeping quiet and hunting the fallen, or the original oath that every Chapter/Legion made: defending the Imperium msn-wink.gif

Once, a Novice Cantus came to me, troubled and uncertain. A slip of a girl, only a few strides down the eternal path leading her to the Golden Throne. She asked me a question. She asked me how we can ever truly understand what faith is. I told her that there is no coin to measure what we feel in our hearts. There are no scales upon which we might weigh the faith of one woman against another. There is only duty and blood. There are only deeds and words. There is only the service to the God-Emperor, and the price that demands from each Sister can only be known by Him. But know that whatever fears must be faced, whatever hardships endured, that price is forever worth its full cost.
- Sister Katherine Elysius,
Daughter of the Emperor (later Imperial Saint Katherine)


#29
Welcheren

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@ Aquilanius: the beauty lies in the range of possible interpretations. 

 

Oaths Keepers it is... will change it (for some reason my fingers keep trying to type Oath Breakers... thank you George Marin). 

 

For your further evaluation and critique, brothers, consider the following process as a replacement for the utter extinction of the chapter:

 

1) The Oath Keepers return, badly battered from their war against the tau and the mutants (in this version the entire chapter does not deploy to the fight), to find their flagship blockaded by a combined fleet of Unforgiven (in this version a home world might be less cumbersome). 

 

2) Members of the Inner Cirlces of those Unforgiven chapters present demand an audience with the leadership with the Oath Keepers, in order to extract an explanation for their actions. Chaplains from these chapters, meanwhile, interview randomly selected members of the rank of file of the Oath Keepers.

 

3) Following a lengthy conclave, the Unforgiven chapters insists that one of their chaplains accompany every task force dispatched by the Oath Keepers.

 

4) Given that the Oath Keepers had given as their primary motive a desire to honour broader pledges to the Imperium, the Unforgiven insist that this chapter now dedicate itself specifically to filling the gaps left when they pursue the Fallen.

 

5) Much unresolved tensions remain and future relations hang in the balance.

 

All of the above points are broad enough to allow for short stories and further elaboration (which anyone out there is welcome to take a stab at if thus inclined).



#30
Aqui

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Sounds workable smile.png I'll have a think about what else could be added to this.
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Once, a Novice Cantus came to me, troubled and uncertain. A slip of a girl, only a few strides down the eternal path leading her to the Golden Throne. She asked me a question. She asked me how we can ever truly understand what faith is. I told her that there is no coin to measure what we feel in our hearts. There are no scales upon which we might weigh the faith of one woman against another. There is only duty and blood. There are only deeds and words. There is only the service to the God-Emperor, and the price that demands from each Sister can only be known by Him. But know that whatever fears must be faced, whatever hardships endured, that price is forever worth its full cost.
- Sister Katherine Elysius,
Daughter of the Emperor (later Imperial Saint Katherine)


#31
Machine God

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So what is the Chapter called Zealots Echelon or Oath Breakers?

 

Anyway considering their history what are their relations towards the Red Talons?


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#32
Welcheren

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Did I type Oath Breakers somewhere in the main IA? ohmy.png My bad! 

 

The chapter is called the Oath Keepers.

 

 

The Keepers' relation to the Red Talons has not been fleshed out in the main article. This is a tangent that I would like to pursue at some point, especially because (as far as I know and I'd be happy to be enlightened if wrong tongue.png ), the Red Talons do not at this stage have much in the way of fluff.

 

So, at this point, the relation between the chapters is still vague. I needed the direct, frontal assault proclivities of a chapter like the Iron Hands as a means of wreaking severe collateral damage to an Imperial world. The Oath Keepers are inclined to think that they might have prosecuted the war with less civilian suffering. Although this is by no means sure, it helps to create tension and serves as a stark reminder to the chapter leadership of the risks incurred by neglecting other duties during the Hunt. This event should be read alongside earlier ones, during which Imperial worlds, resources and manpower was completely lost to xenos, and others still in which other Space Marine chapters reaped the glory of coming to the rescue. The Red Talons have mainly been selected for the sake of convenience here.

 

Just to be clear, this is by no means an indication that I conceive of them or unnecessarily destructive. Probably the events on Hecat would be similar to events on Shardenus. That is to say, the Red Talons understand what is necessary to secure victory over the rebels and they have the endurance, cold logic and the resolution to pursue this. I like this idea because I love the portrayal of the Iron Hands in Chris Wraight's Wrath of Iron. Despite their abhorrence of flesh as weak, the characters are (especially the younger ones) profoundly human and relatable.  

 

This means that I would be very interesting reading B&C ideas currently available on the Red Talons. I was thinking about suggesting some fluff for general debate about them: i.e. how do they differ from the Iron Hands, how can the relentless persecution of weakness and the pursuit of strength be re-interpreted in the cult of this chapter? What if an IH successor takes to heart the notion that Ferrus Manus intended to remove his silver hands and exhort his legion to revise their reliance on the machine?

 

But for this article I chose to focus on eliciting B&C ideas on 1) the sequences of events that may lead a DA chapter to abandon the hunt and 2) how we may expect the Unforgiven to respond, and specifically, is there a way for such a chapter to continue its existence.

 

Are there already a few ideas on Red Talons fluff?


Edited by Welcheren, 07 January 2015 - 09:27 AM.


#33
Lysimachus

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It all sounds fairly interesting.

 

If you're happy with how you've gotten over the initial 'why?' of how they ended up dropping the hunt for the Fallen, then that's ok. If I'm totally honest, though, I still struggle to see them just suddenly turning against all those traditions, especially given how old a Chapter you've made them. That's particularly true of the Inner Circle members who seem to just say "oh, alright then" and go along with the rest of the brethren. Remember, these guys have been chosen to join the Inner Circle specifically because they have the 'right' attitude, determination and zeal for hunting traitors.

 

It's a little more obvious but it might be simpler if something bad happened to (at least a sizeable chunk of) your Chapter Command, thereby giving the youngsters more leeway to choose their own path.

 

My other concern is no.4 in the above list, the DA never know when those gaps are going to appear so how are your guys going to be in the right place at the right time to cover them? Remember the vast distances involved and the way warp travel works, it could be months/years before they could get there which would probably be too late. Or you split your Chapter up and have Companies or smaller battle groups follow the DA (or whoever) around on their missions just in case, which is kind of a waste of Astartes as they might not be needed at all, or if they are needed they won't have the numbers to provide sufficient cover. Plus they'd only be able to cover for a handful of the many Unforgiven Chapters/Companies, making their task all but impossible.

 

Unless that's what you're going for. The DA assigning them a more or less unfulfillable duty, and one that they wont get much thanks for from the Imperial citizens/military (as they'll almost always be too late/not enough). Maybe being forced to face the ire/bitterness/ungratefulness of the people again and again would eventually help the Chapter to get back to seeing things from the Unforgiven's viewpoint.

 

 

Hopefully this isn't coming off that I don't like the idea, as I do, but these are just some points might need some more thought.


Edited by LySiMachus, 07 January 2015 - 01:14 PM.

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#34
Welcheren

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Not at all. These points absolute merit reflection and I am grateful that you have brought them up.



#35
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The idea of having a significant portion of the command cadre lose their lives is quite appealing for the degree to which it fortifies the outcome of the deliberations. 

 

With regards to point number 4... Yes I see the problem. 

 

How can one arrange a plausible way for the Unforgiven to more or less accept the existence of a chapter like the Oath Keepers? Obviously some tension should persist, but what is the alternative?

 

Perhaps the Unforgiven can insist on sending one chaplain with each of the Oath Keepers' strike forces? There is potential for tension, obviously, but might also be plausible if we accept that the Unforgiven conclude that (for now at least) the Oath Keepers are not involved with Fallen?



#36
Knurd

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Have you possibly thought of never inducting anyone else into the Inner Circle? That way normal attrition would do away with those who know the Fallen's secret. Maybe even go on a crusade to speed up the process?

 

A crusade might also help you with number 4. Since the Oath Keepers want to stop the hunt to better help the Imperium that can be their penance. 


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#37
Welcheren

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That is an interesting idea Insein. 

 

I am curious about how whether the Unforgiven will accept that a chapter simply no longer knows because the Inner Circle chose to atrophy by attrition? Might they not suspect Chaos or other forces at work unless they know (and therefore) accept the chapter's choice?



#38
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Being Dark Angels... more than likely Chaos or being infiltrated by the Fallen. 

 

Another idea is to maybe allow the ones who want to continue the hunt to be absorbed into the other Unforgiven. 

 

Both instances do present some challenges unfortunately. The idea that had been presented previously about a Chaplain being placed with the Oath Keepers is a possible solution. 


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#39
Welcheren

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So to summarise: have a significant portion of the leadership cop it prior to the decision to indefinitely suspend the hunt, and after returning from the brink of destruction from the mutants and tau, have the Unforgiven investigate and demand the presence of one of their chaplains with every strike fleet. This will, of course, provide a creatively-productive source of tension for further stories, lore, development etc? 



#40
Lysimachus

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I think that could work. Basically I don't see them having much option but to capitulate and accept Chaplain 'minders'.

As an aside, have you looked at the Throne Knights thread, currently on the front page and similar themes, although it looks more at what happens if a Successor doesn't tow the line. Might be worth a read.
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#41
Welcheren

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Here is a first stab at offing the leadership:

 

The spiritual malaise of the brotherhood became even more taxing when they returned to a world named Hecat. One standard year earlier they had responded to urgent calls for aid against a Chaos-inspired rebellion. But the chapter had abandoned the world in the fruitless pursuit of a Fallen psyker. When its brothers returned to Hecat, the Red Talons chapter (Second Founding successors of the Iron Hands) had already bludgeoned the rebellion into submission. Although undoubtedly efficient, the severe cost in lives, raw materials and industry among the loyal citizens of Hecat appalled the Keepers, adding to extant tensions.

 

 

Shortly thereafter an opportunity arose to regain the chapter's tarnished honour. A new rebellion had been sparked in a neighbouring sub-sector. Since the Red Talons had already withdrawn, the Oath Keepers were the closest Imperial force. Again, Chaos instigators were suspected. Since  the rebellion threatened a vital ring of Forge and Hive worlds - the loss of which would cripple the sub-sector production capacity - a strong response was mounted. Hardly had the Oath Keepers deployed when news reached them that another Chaos force was also active on the borders of the same region. Initial signs pointed to warbands from the Alpha Legion, but some evidence hinted at the presence of the Fallen. Again this would require the Oath Keepers to divert attention from their initial objectives and thus the current Grand Master devised a strategy that would honour both duties. Mobilising the entire Deathwing and much of the Ravenwing, he struck at the Alpha Legion strongholds, located on the periphery of the sub-sector, hoping to punch hard before the enemy could consolidate their position. At the same time, three full battle companies were tasked with subduing the main cluster of rebellions worlds. These companies prosecuted the war with commendable fervour and tenacity, bordering on the fanatical. Then, from the Librarians assigned to them, the Chaplains received word that the Grand Master had successfully beaten the Alpha Legionnaires, however, his forces had been ambushed by warbands from the Night Lords. Not a single member of the Fallen had been found. As soon as they were able, the Oath Keepers dispatched a relief force. However, when they arrived on the borders of the sub-sector, the Grand Master and his entire force had been annihilated. A fierce battle to regain the terminator plate of the Deathwing, the mounts of the Ravenwing, and other relics erupted. Although the Oath Keepers eventually prevailed, morale was at an all time low.  

 

 

The surviving members of the Inner Circle instructed the remaining Chaplains to contain the problem. At the smae time, a chapter summit was called. During a series of lengthy and closed conclaves, the keepers of the ancient secret discovered that they were inclined to share the shame and frustration of the younger warriors.


@ Brother Lysi

 

I have not yet read the thread on the Throne Knights. 

 

Will do so now. Thanks for the suggestion.



#42
Aqui

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A brief note: The Deathwing is the name given to the Dark Angels First Company. As far as I know no other Chapter uses the term (or is allowed to). I think the same applies to the Ravenwing. I'm not entirely sure on that though (I dare say another member can confirm/deny).

Otherwise, it scans okay smile.png

Once, a Novice Cantus came to me, troubled and uncertain. A slip of a girl, only a few strides down the eternal path leading her to the Golden Throne. She asked me a question. She asked me how we can ever truly understand what faith is. I told her that there is no coin to measure what we feel in our hearts. There are no scales upon which we might weigh the faith of one woman against another. There is only duty and blood. There are only deeds and words. There is only the service to the God-Emperor, and the price that demands from each Sister can only be known by Him. But know that whatever fears must be faced, whatever hardships endured, that price is forever worth its full cost.
- Sister Katherine Elysius,
Daughter of the Emperor (later Imperial Saint Katherine)


#43
Welcheren

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Oh. I thought that some DA successors also use the terms. My bad!



#44
Aqui

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Oh. I thought that some DA successors also use the terms. My bad!


I'll have to check, but that's what I thought to be true. I'll have a look around and see if that is the case. Of course, there is nothing to stop you from using such terms if you want to msn-wink.gif

Once, a Novice Cantus came to me, troubled and uncertain. A slip of a girl, only a few strides down the eternal path leading her to the Golden Throne. She asked me a question. She asked me how we can ever truly understand what faith is. I told her that there is no coin to measure what we feel in our hearts. There are no scales upon which we might weigh the faith of one woman against another. There is only duty and blood. There are only deeds and words. There is only the service to the God-Emperor, and the price that demands from each Sister can only be known by Him. But know that whatever fears must be faced, whatever hardships endured, that price is forever worth its full cost.
- Sister Katherine Elysius,
Daughter of the Emperor (later Imperial Saint Katherine)


#45
Welcheren

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Thanks. Even so I'd prefer to a be a good boy and honour extant fluff as closely as I can.



#46
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To all participants, thank you once again for your wisdom and patience.

 

If I am now stretching things too far by committing thread-romancy, please simply ignore this post, along with my apologies. 

 

I have made two changes on which your evaluation would be appreciated. I have altered the lineage of the Oath Keepers to stem from the Angels of Absolution. This way (perhaps) the sequence of events become somewhat more plausible.

 

Along with this, if the Oath Keepers are not to be completely destroyed (I am still undecided on this), here is an ending that tries to make it possible without an unrealistically neat solution that resolves all conflict.

 

A small crew of surviving Oath Keepers, less than 200, had escaped the ruin aboard a damaged sword class Frigate. They arrived on their nearest recruitment world (Redemption Secundus), to discover that forces from the Angels of Vengeance were waiting, having tracked them through psychic means. The future of the chapter is unknown. Doubtless, the Angels have received a full report of the chapter's history. Only a single member of the Oath Keepers' Inner Circle had survived to explain the order's choices. Understandably, the Angels of Vengeance were deeply suspicious. On the one hand, they suspected that the Oath Keepers may have been manipulated by the Fallen. On the other hand, even if their story was true, the Oath Keepers constituted a dire risk to the secrecy of the Unforgiven. The Angels of Vengeance were in a superior position, for they still held all the relics, equipment and gene-seed of the Oath Keepers. Their Chaplains interviewed all the surviving brothers separately, hunting for the truth. Since all these Astartes bore no knowledge of events on Caliban, they could not fathom the suspicion and hostility of their gene-brothers. 

 

 

At some point during the deliberations, elements from the Angels of Absolution arrived. Once they had been appraised of all that had happened, the delegation stepped to the fore, to speak on behalf of their successors. The Angels of Absolution announced that they should take ultimate responsibility for the actions of the Oath Keepers, claiming that their original teachings may have inclined the Keepers to abandon the Hunt. Although barely a feasible argument, it was designed to allow a compromise. Claiming ultimate guilt, the Angels of Absolution proposed to the Angels of Vengeance that they would oversee the rebuilding of the chapter. Moreover, they would insist that from that day onward, a Chaplain from the Angels of Absolution would accompany every task force of the Oath Keepers. Each Chaplain would watch for signs of corruption and treachery. 

 

Eventually, it was determined that the Rock should announce the final judgment. Whether the Oath Keepers will be allowed to rebuild has yet to be decided.

 

Never mind... my apologies. I think its best if they no longer exist.


Edited by Welcheren, 18 January 2015 - 12:21 PM.


#47
Octavulg

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I like the concept (though I would). And disagree that this is somehow missing the point of using the DA - mucking around with the Fallen is the whole point of using the DA, and that can include pointedly NOT using the Fallen.

 

Looking at it, you're moving through things too fast. There needs to be some more establishment of the chapter as-they-were. Then build things up slowly. You race through to the decision, then dwell on it. Spread things out a bit more.

 

AoA is a good call for this. I'm not sure your portrayal of them rings true, though. They won't accept guilt for the Fallen, but will accept guilt for these guys? Doesn't seem consistent. Me, I'd leave the ultimate reaction of the rest of the Unforgiven unresolved - swords of Damocles are more fun than answers.


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#48
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I like the concept (though I would). And disagree that this is somehow missing the point of using the DA - mucking around with the Fallen is the whole point of using the DA, and that can include pointedly NOT using the Fallen.

 

Looking at it, you're moving through things too fast. There needs to be some more establishment of the chapter as-they-were. Then build things up slowly. You race through to the decision, then dwell on it. Spread things out a bit more.

 

AoA is a good call for this. I'm not sure your portrayal of them rings true, though. They won't accept guilt for the Fallen, but will accept guilt for these guys? Doesn't seem consistent. Me, I'd leave the ultimate reaction of the rest of the Unforgiven unresolved - swords of Damocles are more fun than answers.

 

You raise a good point on racing through things. I thought that AoA might make a show of accepting responsibility simply to suggest keeping their Chaplains on the watch, under which conditions the Oath Keepers are allowed to exist (which in the current version does not pan out).

 

I will think on slowing things down. Guess I was afraid to tax readers' patience. 



#49
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The length is OK. But the distribution of that length needs some work. More time to establishing stuff, a bit less to the result.


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#50
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