Filius Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Update 11th January: I broadend the Question a little bit. Please see this post within this Thread. Thanks! First thing: I'm not sure, wether this is the right subforum, but as I search an answer on this question as a part of Research for DIYing, I do think, that it might be interesting for other DIYers also. So the question is: Which are the most popular Chapters? I want to know this, to get a feeling for the things, that "work" within the official Chapters, that attract people to them. I also know, that there's no simple answer to this question, because the question is quite unprecise. So first thing I did was take a look at this forum an look for something measurable. Easiest thing ist to take a look an the Number of Topics and Posts in the corresponing subforums. Space Wolves: 10.000 Topics, 172.000 Replies Blood Angels: 5.500 Topics, 104.000 Replies Black Templars: 4.800 Topics, 90.000 Replies Grey Knights: 4.100 Topics, 79.000 Replies Dark Angels: 3.600 Topics, 79.000 Replies, Ultramarines: 1.200 Topics, 30.000 Replies Imperial Fists: 490 Topics, 9.000 Replies Raven Guard: 350 Topics, 6.000 Replies Iron Hands: 300 Topics, 6.000 Replies Salamanders: 220 Topics, 2.500 Replies White Scars: 145 Topics, 1.500 Replies All Numbers are rounded. The numbers quite suprise me. First thing: I wouldn't have thought that the differences are sooo big. For every Space Wolves Reply there's only one on the White Scars. One percent. That's really not so much. Second thing: Judging from the Ammout of Minifigs and Room GW and BL give the Ultramarines, I would have thought, they'd be more popular. Okay. Now to my question: Does anyone now an other Numbers? Like: Black Libaray Novels sold? Games played at Tournaments? But more importantly: What's you're personal impression? Which of the official Chapters attrackt people? Would you say there's something within the Narration of the Chapters, that makes them popular, or is it something different, like the rules? (Backgroundinfo on me: I haven't played 40k Tabletop sind the 90ies, and I am hardly connected to the playing/reading Community. So I assume, that probably everyone around here has a better insight, than me.) As always: Thank you very much in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Yeah, topics and replies isn't a very useful measure. Chapters with their own codex will obviously get more traffic than, say, Ultramarines, where a lot of the generic codex-related discussion will be under the main Codex Space Marines forum. And it doesn't tell you anything about which Chapter they're actually playing, because people talk about Successors in those forums too. Anecdotally, I see a ton of Ultramarines armies among the younger crowd. Walk into any GW store and there'll usually be at least one Ultramarines army in the cabinet and kids painting Space Marines to match the box covers. Whether it's having lots of special characters, an easy colour scheme to paint, the relentless promotion, or simple "blue for boys" bias in a male-dominated hobby, they do seem to be as popular as GW think they are. Space Wolves popularity is well-documented. A D-B has commented on it several times, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I wouldn't put too much weight on this, as you should really be thinking about what you want rather than what is most popular, and what is most popular might not be what you want. For example, Space Wolves top that list, and seem to have the biggest, most proactive group on this forum. But if you look at the Dos and Don'ts of DIYing, which more or less represents the general approach most on this forum have towards DIYs, you can see that the Space Wolves hit almost every Don't. If someone had presented them as a DIY, it would not have been well-received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I picked the Dark Angels because of their background and the Dark Green color scheme. I would look at the backgrounds of all the chapters and see what resonates with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filius Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 @Lucien Eilam: Yeah the posts and replies certainly aren't a good way to measure, but at least an easy one. Thanks though for your personal view, and the Info about the Space Wolves. @Conn Eremon: […] the Space Wolves hit almost every Don't. If someone had presented them as a DIY, it would not have been well-received. Haha! Really? That's superfunny. I'm probably not putting too much weight on that. I'm mostly just curious. I'm more or less just trying to understand myself. I'm constantly drawn to 40k for more than 25 Years now, and I still can't really put the finger on, what it is, that draws me there. So when it comes to thinking of a DIY-IA, and telling my own stories within this universe I first want to understand a bit more about what it makes it so attractive. And when I understand, what draws others to certain Chapters, maybe I understand my own Fascination a bit better. Which then, would make the DIYing a lot easier, or at least the goal, the direction of DIYing for me more clear. Space Wolves are a good example I think. Most Chapter Ideas I have, tend to have a sort of pagan Aspect to them, using Animals, and native european and northamerican believes. Space Wolves do have that topos to. And somehow I would say, I'm not too alone with that, hehe. (But I going to have an own post on the extend of Paganism. ) @Grand Master Belial: I would do so, but the problem is, almost every Chapter resonates quite a lot with me. I more or less read quite a lot on (read the codices, if available, read the Lexicanum and Wikia Entry, and a fair amout of Novels and Shortstories) the main Chapters and I really like pretty much all of them. Currenty I dive into the less known and popular Chapters, like the Mortifactors (totally great Chapter!), Celestial Lions and Hospitaller (great Idea: the Samaritan Killing Machine). But as I am not in a hurry, I'm pretty sure I'll find the Chapter, that best fits to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I wouldn't put too much weight on this, as you should really be thinking about what you want rather than what is most popular, and what is most popular might not be what you want. For example, Space Wolves top that list, and seem to have the biggest, most proactive group on this forum. But if you look at the Dos and Don'ts of DIYing, which more or less represents the general approach most on this forum have towards DIYs, you can see that the Space Wolves hit almost every Don't. If someone had presented them as a DIY, it would not have been well-received. I'm fairly certain that most of the First Founding Chapters would get torn to shreds by Liber, to say nothing of Chapters like the Grey Knights or Black Templars. That might indicate something about either GW's writing ability or Liber's standards. I do personally think that Liber is a bit too...stringent with their guides and standards though. Alot of the ''Don'ts'' seem to be stuff that GW deliberately left open for players to develop their own Chapters. At a certain point it seems more like choking down creativity rather than helping develop a chapter in a constructive way. Like Second Founding Chapters, something that frowned upon generally for homebrew Chapters, yet GW in recent years has spent time retconning the Second Founding to be much bigger than previously thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I think the Second Founding issue was all on us fans, and it's just that it's been made more obvious how wrong that stance was that is finally chipping away at it. And then we got the Legions increasing in size, which I think finally killed it as the mainstream thought on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I do personally think that Liber is a bit too...stringent with their guides and standards though. Alot of the ''Don'ts'' seem to be stuff that GW deliberately left open for players to develop their own Chapters. At a certain point it seems more like choking down creativity rather than helping develop a chapter in a constructive way. Well, it's a very old guide now and, in light of all that's been published since it was written, flat out wrong in places. Most of it is still solid advice though and, like it says at the start, it's a guide not a hard and fast rulebook. You can break a rule or two by all means, just understand what you're doing and that it will need justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filius Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 @Gree I do personally think that Liber is a bit too...stringent with their guides and standards though. Alot of the ''Don'ts'' seem to be stuff that GW deliberately left open for players to develop their own Chapters. At a certain point it seems more like choking down creativity rather than helping develop a chapter in a constructive way. Also I am a noob as noob can be, I would jump to Libers Defence here. Of course … I would break any Rule of any Guide on DIY, if I were convinced of my own idea. Buuut … I'd really prefer to know at least some rules, before I start breaking them. When I take a look at my own Ideas and read across all those DIY-Chapters here, I can't help, but regulary come to a point, where I think "Something in that doesn't work. But I can't put my finger on". And a lot of the "Dos and Dont's" of the Liber just are exactly putting their finger on. More then once, while reading through the Guides, I though "Ah, yeah, that's, that's the point!". Liber just explains a lot of things, that exists within 40k, but are not written down by GW, or BL, or whoever works with the franchise. Also I would say, that 40k changed a lot during the last 10/20 years. If you look at the early stuff, its far more of a wild 70ies weird substances induced dark phantasmaorgy, while today it's tries to be more something like a Anti-Star-Trek. I think within the current 40k there are fewer possibilities of what works coherent within the Universe and what don't. So I would also say, that having more "stringent" rules, is actually more the way 40k develops within the last years. But any way, you're right: Neither Liber, nor GW own Development of the 40k Lore should be choking down anyones creativity. The hidden promise wihtin 40k – that you're always invited to create your own Chapter, to add something – is one of the main Strengths of the whole Franchise, imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Yes, the rules are there for a purpose but, really, all there are are guidelines. Case in point, the community-made chapter over the course of 2013/14: The Sons of Sköll (which, incidentally, is losing it's sticky staus today). The whole point to the chapter was to break two of the usual hurdles regarding DIY chapters - a Space Wolf successor and a Dark/Cursed Founding origin. Generally speaking, these ideas are not advised due to most DIY chapter makers simply falling at the first hurdle and not considering the implications on the character of their creation. The results unfortunately end up being one-trick ponies. If you can write an IA well enough, you can ignore some rules. ^_^ You'll find the initial development thread here if you wish to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yes, the rules are there for a purpose but, really, all there are are guidelines. Yes, there is no strict rule governing the creation of DIY Chapters, and there is no way to really enforce them unless one wants to track somebody down and smash their homebrew models with a hammer. However peer pressure is also a very real thing, and something quite present on internet forums. Even if they might be guidelines, the local community seems to adhere to them quite closely with certain things regarded as taboo by the wider community, even if Games Workshop themselves has done those taboo things in multiple canon chapter. Also I don't think a community project started by popular moderators is comparable to say, a new poster trying to start his own homebrew Space Wolf successor. I would dare say somebody else would face a more uphill battle than your example, if he decided to post up his Space Wolf DIY Chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 A fair point. A new member would indeed have a harder time than the more well-established brothers here (including me) at convincing readers the merit of his ideas. I think the community wisdom in regards to taboos is somewhat of a double-edged sword: On the one hand it helps make outlandish and unbelievable DIY IAs less wild, more coherent. And on the other it may stifle fanciful and original ideas that seemingly venture too far into the left field. For me, the duty is to know which is which and respond accordingly, if possible. That and keeping the Liber active, useful and enjoyable. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filius Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share Posted January 3, 2015 As I AM an new Member, I think I can at least add a bit of my perspective on it. I was on the brink of creating a space-wolves-alike Chapter, just lately. The reasons I decided against it are mostly considerations of my own, but as well the Insights I got from the DIY-Guides, as well as the feedback from Members here. So yes … the Opinion of the Liber towards DIYing does influence the Creation of DIY-Chapter and it definetly goes in a direction that makes the Chapters less fancy and extraordinary. Buuuut … I didn't totally give up the Idea of creating a space-wolves-alike Chapter, and Exampes like the Sons of Sköll even encourage me in keeping this as a possibility. Aaand: The DIY-Guidelines, my respect for the Liber Community (to use another word for "peer pressure" ), and my beliefe, that DIY is – like almost any other form of creative writing – a Craft that has to be learned, step by step, makes me think that is the best way, to get into DIYing. I think I'll comeback to this thread, when my first IA is "finished". :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filius Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Hi everyone, stumbling into this Thread. I am not completely finished with that Topic yet. I'm continually suprised, that almost every bigger Chapters (first founding + the more stuffed out of Later foundings, esp. Crimson Fists, Iron Snakes, Black Templars, Blood Ravens, Celestial Lions and my personal favourites, the Moritfactors) of the Official Games Workshop Lore attracts me. The more time I spend reading about any of these Chapters, more I get to like it. I'm only happy, that I'm not a Tabletop Player: Making a Choice for a Chapter to play, collect and paint would be simply impossible for me. To get to the point: I would like to understand (at least a little bit) better, what makes those Chapters so attractive. In order to find out about that, I am looking for your help, and here comes my Question: Which Chapters do you like most, and (more importantly) why do you like them more than others, or what do you like about them? (The Answers could – of course – contain the whole Spectrum of 40k: Fluff, Rules, Illustrations, Artwork, Novels and Short Stories, other Game Systems or whatever your entry to 40k may be. So this is totally about your personal preferences, opinion and experiences with Chapters.) As always: A thousand Thankyous in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Heh. I could help you, but unfortunately you're just getting onto the boat I've been stowing away on for years. :D I'll still see if I can put up some tidbits later on, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filius Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Heh. I could help you, but unfortunately you're just getting onto the boat I've been stowing away on for years. I'll still see if I can put up some tidbits later on, though. Hehe. :D Some tidbits are totally fine for me. I'm happy about the tiniest hint, story or explanation. And: I'm not in a haste, so there's no need hurry! Thanks already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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