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#51
baldur27

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 As far as I'm aware there is no solid answer for this one. I've heard 4 main theories: 1 the squads being deployed in the rhino's supply the drivers. 2 the drivers come from the reserve companies. 3 the drivers are tech marines from the armory. 4 there are dedicated drivers that fall outside the 1000 man limit. personally I like option 2 or 3 but that's just me.



#52
Lysimachus

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In the Ultras, Sgt Chronus is described as having his own command of tank crews separate from the Company structure.

I think most accept the 1,000 Marine Myth, there are obviously more brethren than that.

10 Marines x 10 squads x 10 companies = 1,000

Capt, Chaplain, Apothecary, Standard Bearer, 3 more vets (for 5 man command squad) x 10 Companies = 60

Chapter HQ:

Chapter Master + honour guard = 11 (ish?)

Apothecaries, Chaplains will have other additional members, including Chief Apothecary and Master of Sanctity = 15 (ish?)

Librarius = Chief Librarian plus Epistolaries, Codicers, Lexicaniums, 25 (ish?)

Armoury = MotF, Techmarines 25 (ish?)



Then you have the Chapter fleet, even if you only put a single Astartes commander and a Techmarine on the Battlebarges/Strike Cruisers that will be another 20 (ish?)

Plus Thunderhawk crews, 2 per 'hawk, assume 30ish hawks per Chapter = 60



Then finally, the place where there is more doubt, back to the Armoury for tanks crews. GW says Chronus has 50 marines under his direct command. Many people feel an even higher number would be more appropriate so you're not stripping the reserve Co.s to man tanks/Stormtalon wings.



So that comes out to around 1,266 (if my maths is right) and is still fairly conservative.


Honestly, the 1,000 Marine limit refers to line squads, not support.
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#53
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Another Question from my side: Where are Adpothecarii trained and do they have a Connection to the Mechanikum? As far as I know, Techmarines are sent to Mars for thirty years of training. If you take a look at all the Duties and Fields of Expertise a Apothecarius has, I wonder if they are sent to Mars to study from the Magos Biologis. Aaaand the other way round: I wonder wether the Magos Biologis might want to use the Apothecarii to gather Intel on the Xenos they meet (and kill).


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#54
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And another One: When is now? :D

I mean … when thinking about an DIY, it is probalby assumed that it will be at the most current "official" events. When is that?

The Lexicanums most recent Event is in 127.M42: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M42


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#55
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As far as I'm aware Apothecaries are trained by the existing Apothecaries in the Chapter. I imagine the Biologis would be grateful for any autopsy reports carried out by Space Marine Apothecaries on rare and unusual xenos species, although it would probably depend on the specific Magos, some of whom would be suspicious of any intelligence collected by someone trained in a different way to them.

Traditionally the 'present day' of 40K is the last peal of midnight on the last day of the last year of M41 (which is actually 40,999). But on the whole any date during the last decade or so of M41 can suffice.
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#56
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I think most accept the 1,000 Marine Myth... So that comes out to around 1,266 (if my maths is right) and is still fairly conservative.
Honestly, the 1,000 Marine limit refers to line squads, not support.


I posted in 2006 (here, post #16) with a post that was eventually incorporated into the Librarium. I posted this in 2011:

The "1000 Marine Myth" article was largely copy-pasted from a post I wrote in April 2006 (you can find it here) - in the thread, I freely admitted it was a tenuous extrapolation, though more so towards the end. It's clearly transparent that Chapters are larger than 1000 Marines, if only because we know that ten Companies of ten squads is 1000, and that's not including Command Squads, Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, the Chapter Master... If you take the argument that all vehicles are driven by Reserve Company Marines, it would mean that the Reserve Company would never actually be able to operate as an independent fighting force (something we know that can happen.)

Still, as a five year-old post, it is showing its age somewhat. Clearly the "1000 Marines" is a rough guideline, and I'm okay with that. It's a rough average of the fighting strength a Chapter can bring to bear, without GW having to be ridiculously specific. I believe that Serfs would have major roles and responsibilities, but regardless, we know that old texts do make reference to Marines rendered incapable of waging war (they don't all end up dead or in dreadnoughts!) serving in non-combat roles "behind the scenes."


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QUOTE (voi shet magir @ May 31 2011, 05:38 AM) 
That is an unexpectedly strong assertion from a dead person.

#57
Conn Eremon

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Aye, most of these posts about Chapters being typically over a thousand Marines is technically correct, but saying that a Chapter is restricted to a thousand Marines is still nominally correct. Exactly how far above a thousand Chapters will go is kind of up in the air, as it's not really all that well delineated in the lore, and likely there are as many in-universe variations as there are theories on the matter. For instance, there are a lot of groups that could be considered to be 'beyond' the core thousand or a part of it. Like the Chapter armour, that might be part of the sixth or seventh Reserve Companies, which are Tactical Reserves where a Marine undergoes armour pilot training. Or maybe the armour is outside of that, as those Reserve Companies are really only shown as 'pilot-heavy' in the sense that they can be fielded entirely with bikes or landspeeders, respectively.

 

But there is also the Chapter fleet. While almost entirely crewed by Chapter serfs with specialized training, we also have the Codex calling the 4th Company Captain as the Master of the Fleet. The 4th Company is a Battle-Company, but is its Captain only an administrative commander of the Chapter's ships, meaning that the 4th Company is no different than the 2nd, 3rd or 5th? Or does the commander's role mean that the 4th Company itself could be seen as a sort of specialized ship-fighting company? If they aren't, is there still a specialized ship-fighting force outside of the 1000-manned companies?

 

Maybe, maybe not. Theories abound, and which one you ascribe to depends entirely on either which ones you like or which ones you feel are most appropriate to your Chapter. For instance, I've always been intrigued by the idea of the 4th Company being a specialized ship-fighting company. Well, I've always been intrigued in that the Captains have specialized titles and duties, and that their Companies may reflect that. In my mind, this subtracts from the number that goes over a thousand, as some of those thousand are more than just Marines of the line. My Chapters reflect that, especially the Codex-adherents (which are almost all of them). Which led me to see one of my Chapters, that focuses on specialized ship-fighting the way the Blood Angels focus on the close and personal, as having a Fourth Captain that would be the equivalent to any other Chapter's First Captain.

 

 

 

As for going over the thousand, in a way that could be determined as Codex deviant, not in the sense that all Chapters have more than just the ten companies of ten squads of ten Marines, the Codex Astartes does allow for a temporary deviancy in the face of a suitable threat. That's something I explored with my Emerald Tigers, who fought a one-on-two brutal war for survival against a couple of my DIY Chaos warbands. The Chapter boosts induction rates to meet the threat, and when they have finally overcome it, they are organizationally 12 companies strong, but in reality under strength. Which brought me to a dilemma. What happens with the extra Marines? I sincerely doubt the Codex Astartes says "And from whence the foe arrived doth it turn back, then shall thee execute thy excess brothers." My assumption is that the excess Marines simply don't factor into the Chapter's total strength, and are therefore not replaced upon their death. I had a Ramilies-class Star Fort plant itself around the planet-sized Warpstorm from which the enemy tends to burst free from, so it seemed fitting that those Marines be stationed there. In a sense, it's a bit :cuss ed up to have the Chapter throw them aside and forget about them, but this is 40k. Everything's more than a bit :cuss ed up. On the other hand, I liked having the potential there. What if the Chapter is called to task for being over-sized, when the threat has been gone and the original thousand are back to their full, yet there sit an additional company or two in languish? Would they not defend their decision, violently if it came down to it? And then there are the excess Marines themselves. Young, rejected, and exiled for the rest of their long lives to stare deep into the heart of corruption and damnation. Maybe my Chapter made a mistake treating them so, and maybe that mistake will come back to bite them when the old threat proves itself hurt, but not dead.

 

 

Another Question from my side: Where are Adpothecarii trained and do they have a Connection to the Mechanikum? As far as I know, Techmarines are sent to Mars for thirty years of training. If you take a look at all the Duties and Fields of Expertise a Apothecarius has, I wonder if they are sent to Mars to study from the Magos Biologis. Aaaand the other way round: I wonder wether the Magos Biologis might want to use the Apothecarii to gather Intel on the Xenos they meet (and kill).

 

Far as I'm aware, the Apothecary does not have a connection to the Mechanicum like the Techmarines do, or the Chaplains the Ecclesiarchy. As TDF said, it's perhaps more likely that Apothecary training is specific and exclusive to the Apothecaries. You must be one to either train or be trained. That said, while it's often seen as a bit too popular, if your Chapter has connections with the Mechanicum in some manner (and almost all Chapters will, in some form or another), then you can potentially use that relationship to fit your idea in.

 

 

And another One: When is now? biggrin.png

I mean … when thinking about an DIY, it is probalby assumed that it will be at the most current "official" events. When is that?

The Lexicanums most recent Event is in 127.M42: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M42

 

The clock has stopped at 999.M41 and has not budged. The date you refer to is likely from the Ciaphas Cain series, which has an after-apocalypse narrator. It's generally seen as the exception to the rule. The clock has stopped three strokes away from midnight, and where the galaxy rests at that point varies from fan to fan. Many see 40k's "end time" as just another terrible struggle that all involved will walk away from like always before, changed but alive. Personally, I don't see that as very fitting to the setting. While there might still exist some sort of Imperial society by 127.M42, it does so nearly a full century after Terra has fallen and the Emperor thrown from his throne. It would be a small, increasingly rare bubble of stability, soon to be snuffed out. But that's my own extrapolation of the timeline's advancement. All we know is that it's 999.M41, and not a minute later.

 

Which means it's generally seen as the "present." Now, whether or not this is your DIY's present or not is up to you. I have a couple Chapters where something in their past is of vastly greater interest to me than their present. Even if not, there absolutely should be a whole suite of interesting events that occurred in your Chapter's past. Even the youngest Chapters are centuries old, and it isn't as if Space Marines are known to twiddle their thumbs for decades to millennia. As an example, the Ultramarines have the Tyranid invasion of Macragge, centuries prior to the "present." But further back, you have the event where the Ultramarines stepped in and literally took over the Imperium for a short period of time while a new High Lord council was elected/selected. Go all the way to the beginning, and you have the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy/Scouring eras, a period of such interest that Forge World has been able to make 30k their 40k.

 

More often than not, I like the sense of hopelessness and despair that the end times bring. I like the idea that the only thing keeping the Imperium running is that the clock ain't ticking forward anymore. So generally, I like to introduce something to my Chapters for this time, something that has the potential to destroy them or remake them. Something that puts the Chapter into a similar position as the Imperium at large, with Abaddon kicking in the Emperor's door, the Tyranids sliding in for the claymore-backstab, and so, so many other threats. In fact, I think the Emerald Tigers is the only Chapter I haven't done that to, as their "present" is after their greatest threat, from which they have come back stronger than ever. It's my only gift to my favorite DIY. Still won't save them, once the clock starts ticking.

 

 

Black Templars have many more than 1000 marines, has anyone read about any tension between the powers that be with them about this?

 

Is anyone aware of just how much gene-seed a Chapter has, out of curiosity?

And the gene tithe is usually how much/ how often?

 

 

The Black Templars were an exception that proved the rule. I say were, because current lore says they're Codex-adherent in size now. But back when they were over-sized, it wasn't very well known at all. No one knew their true strength, and we the readers only knew they went over because of the extra out-of-universe knowledge we got. The Chapter even deliberately orchestrated its Crusades to prevent people from discerning their full size, by making sure no one Crusade was big enough on its own, by making sure the Crusades were well spaced out, and by mixing and matching the Fighting Companies so often that nobody would be able to tell if a separate Crusade is the same as a previous one or not.

 

For the latter two questions, I have no idea if that has ever been addressed. Others on this forum have taken the time to determine exactly how quickly a Chapter could reproduce a set of progenoid glands, though I never took the time to retain that kind of information. In the end, the result was higher than I would have expected, if that's worth anything. For the tithes, I've always assumed a tenth. A tenth of all gene-seed a Chapter has. Now, when or how that tithe is collected, I've always seen as varied, with the average being a centennial Mechanicum run. Still seemed like it would leave enough for the Chapter to explosively outgrow its limits, if it wanted to.

 

Perhaps the Astral Claws could be a case study on this. See how much they are suspected to have grown since they last rejected the tithe. Subtract the number of Marines that could have been made entirely off of progenoids grown during that time and you can see what kind of gene-seed store they might have already had. I would see the Astral Claws as being moderately-high on the list of honored Chapters, though. They're no First Founding, but their position as the head of the Maelstrom Warders certainly means they had more favor than the average joe Chapter. So I would see any results of said case study as being the upper limits of a DIY's potential, as far as my own DIYs would be concerned. 

 

If anyone wants to do that, it would probably provide some useful information regardless of how it goes.


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#58
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The Black Templars have become more closely Codex-Adherent?

 

Could someone please post the source for that one so that I can peruse it.

 

Also, I am not as clued up on the Apocalypse as I should be, and am therefore hesitant to design DIYs as Conn Eremon has done. Could anyone recommend sources to start with as a means of getting to grips with the details?



#59
Lysimachus

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I think most accept the 1,000 Marine Myth... So that comes out to around 1,266 (if my maths is right) and is still fairly conservative.
Honestly, the 1,000 Marine limit refers to line squads, not support.


I posted in 2006 (here, post #16) with a post that was eventually incorporated into the Librarium. I posted this in 2011:

The "1000 Marine Myth" article was largely copy-pasted from a post I wrote in April 2006 (you can find it here) - in the thread, I freely admitted it was a tenuous extrapolation, though more so towards the end. It's clearly transparent that Chapters are larger than 1000 Marines, if only because we know that ten Companies of ten squads is 1000, and that's not including Command Squads, Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Techmarines, the Chapter Master... If you take the argument that all vehicles are driven by Reserve Company Marines, it would mean that the Reserve Company would never actually be able to operate as an independent fighting force (something we know that can happen.)
Still, as a five year-old post, it is showing its age somewhat. Clearly the "1000 Marines" is a rough guideline, and I'm okay with that. It's a rough average of the fighting strength a Chapter can bring to bear, without GW having to be ridiculously specific. I believe that Serfs would have major roles and responsibilities, but regardless, we know that old texts do make reference to Marines rendered incapable of waging war (they don't all end up dead or in dreadnoughts!) serving in non-combat roles "behind the scenes."




Thanks Mol, I knew the article was in Librarium (but not available) so I went looking for the post to quote but couldn't find it!

#60
Filius

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Another Question from my side: Where are Adpothecarii trained and do they have a Connection to the Mechanikum? As far as I know, Techmarines are sent to Mars for thirty years of training. If you take a look at all the Duties and Fields of Expertise a Apothecarius has, I wonder if they are sent to Mars to study from the Magos Biologis. Aaaand the other way round: I wonder wether the Magos Biologis might want to use the Apothecarii to gather Intel on the Xenos they meet (and kill).

 
Far as I'm aware, the Apothecary does not have a connection to the Mechanicum like the Techmarines do, or the Chaplains the Ecclesiarchy. As TDF said, it's perhaps more likely that Apothecary training is specific and exclusive to the Apothecaries. You must be one to either train or be trained. That said, while it's often seen as a bit too popular, if your Chapter has connections with the Mechanicum in some manner (and almost all Chapters will, in some form or another), then you can potentially use that relationship to fit your idea in.

 

 
Uh. Ahm. That's sad somehow. Having something like an Central Biological Intelligence Agency would pretty cool. And as far as I understood, the Strategic Collective is pretty much an Non-Astartes thing, right?

http://wh40k.lexican...egic_Collective

 

 

After a few minutes thinking about it: Ah. That's not too bad. It forces me, to put the Actions and Connection between the Apothecarion of my Chapter either into the Chapter or between my Chapter and other Chapters Apothecarions. In both ways it's even better than using the Magos Biologis, as it adds the tension of the forbidden, and puts more conflict potential within the Chapter. biggrin.png

Nice.

Though I have to rewrite parts of my IA and my Shortstories now. :D
 

 

And another One: When is now? biggrin.png
I mean … when thinking about an DIY, it is probalby assumed that it will be at the most current "official" events. When is that?
The Lexicanums most recent Event is in 127.M42: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M42

 
The clock has stopped at 999.M41 and has not budged. The date you refer to is likely from the Ciaphas Cain series, which has an after-apocalypse narrator. It's generally seen as the exception to the rule. The clock has stopped three strokes away from midnight, and where the galaxy rests at that point varies from fan to fan. Many see 40k's "end time" as just another terrible struggle that all involved will walk away from like always before, changed but alive. Personally, I don't see that as very fitting to the setting. While there might still exist some sort of Imperial society by 127.M42, it does so nearly a full century after Terra has fallen and the Emperor thrown from his throne. It would be a small, increasingly rare bubble of stability, soon to be snuffed out. But that's my own extrapolation of the timeline's advancement. All we know is that it's 999.M41, and not a minute later.
 
Which means it's generally seen as the "present." Now, whether or not this is your DIY's present or not is up to you. I have a couple Chapters where something in their past is of vastly greater interest to me than their present. Even if not, there absolutely should be a whole suite of interesting events that occurred in your Chapter's past. Even the youngest Chapters are centuries old, and it isn't as if Space Marines are known to twiddle their thumbs for decades to millennia. As an example, the Ultramarines have the Tyranid invasion of Macragge, centuries prior to the "present." But further back, you have the event where the Ultramarines stepped in and literally took over the Imperium for a short period of time while a new High Lord council was elected/selected. Go all the way to the beginning, and you have the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy/Scouring eras, a period of such interest that Forge World has been able to make 30k their 40k.
 
More often than not, I like the sense of hopelessness and despair that the end times bring. I like the idea that the only thing keeping the Imperium running is that the clock ain't ticking forward anymore. So generally, I like to introduce something to my Chapters for this time, something that has the potential to destroy them or remake them. Something that puts the Chapter into a similar position as the Imperium at large, with Abaddon kicking in the Emperor's door, the Tyranids sliding in for the claymore-backstab, and so, so many other threats. In fact, I think the Emerald Tigers is the only Chapter I haven't done that to, as their "present" is after their greatest threat, from which they have come back stronger than ever. It's my only gift to my favorite DIY. Still won't save them, once the clock starts ticking.

 

What the … ?! I really hadn't noticed that by now. There are so many Events in the Timeline, that I didn't notice stuff like "The Great Awakening" and "The light of the Astronomican grows dim". That's weird. Although … Patrick O'Brian (not sure who's also an Aubrey and Maturon Readers are around here) had the Problem that he had to "invent extra years", in order to continue his tale. With the Endtime, you don't have that problem. biggrin.png

 

What is the best thing to read, if you want to know more about the End-Time?

 

And: Do I understand that correct, that all Events that are currently invented, take place "somehwhen in the past", like this currently published "Shield of Baal" Campaign? So as a DIYer and writer of Fanfiction, you just choose any moment in 40ks past, and start storytelling there, right?

 

By the way: I was really suprised to see all those 30k Minis over at Forge World. Although it's only coherent after the unpreceeded success of the Novels, I just don't like them. Just don't like the Helmets and Armour of the Heresy Aera.  But I have to admit, that having the Primarchs as Protagonists/Antagonists, actually is pretty appealing.

 

Not to myself: That puts the "Battles of the Space Marines" Series into a totally new light. biggrin.png

… few minutes later …

Oh my gods, I will never get know how the Tyrandis hit the Galaxy with full strength!


Edited by Filius, 14 January 2015 - 09:05 AM.

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#61
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#62
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Perhaps the Astral Claws could be a case study on this. See how much they are suspected to have grown since they last rejected the tithe. Subtract the number of Marines that could have been made entirely off of progenoids grown during that time and you can see what kind of gene-seed store they might have already had. I would see the Astral Claws as being moderately-high on the list of honored Chapters, though. They're no First Founding, but their position as the head of the Maelstrom Warders certainly means they had more favor than the average joe Chapter. So I would see any results of said case study as being the upper limits of a DIY's potential, as far as my own DIYs would be concerned.

As an addendum, towards the later stages of the Badab War the Astral Claws were having to replace their losses with any geneseed they could find including that of fallen enemies.

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#63
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And another Question: Which loyal Chapter would plausibly break the ban to study Xenos and do research on the Tyranids?

 

I did some research on that question myself and considered a few candidates:

  • The Scythes of the Emperor, have pretty good reason, and abandonded the Codex Astartes to a small degree, but they are mentioned as very loyal to the codex, which is a strong hint -imho- that they wouldn't act against the ban.
  • The Blood Ravens seek Knowledge and are known to do uncommon things. But they don't really seem to be interested in Tyranids too much.
  • The Mortifactors claim themselves to be strict to the Codex, although other would dispute that.
  • The Lamenters also have reason enough, but might be to "frightend" to challange the Inquisition with such actions.
  • The White Scars do have a tradition of Knowledge Exchange and don't care too much for the Codex, but they dont seem to be the Resarch-Kind-of Guys.
  • Same goes for the Space Wolves.
  • The Ultramarines have proven that their Hate on the Tyranids is stronger than their Trust in the Codex. And they are wise enough to do research, plus they have the standing to not fear the Inquisition or the Mechanikum.
  • Iron Hands don't give too much for the Codex and Rules of others, and they hate Xenos, especially all-meaty-ones, but somehow they don't seem to be too much interested in Tyranids.
  • The Raven Guard has the correct Mindset for that kind of Action, although they burned their fingers once, when doing too much research.
  • Iron Snakes have enought Apothecarii to find some among them and they don't care too much for the Codex and Rules of others.

Edited by Filius, 14 January 2015 - 11:38 AM.

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#64
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There was a mention somewhere of a Brother Corben Nayle (I think) from the Novamarines who conducted research on xenos with naturally evolved weapons, hoping to hone combats styles to counter them. That sounds as though it would include a heavy study of Tynarids.

 

Can't remember the source though. Will see if I can find it.


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#65
Conn Eremon

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From Warhammer wiki, uncited:

Brother Corben Nayle - Brother Nayle was an accomplished Battle-Brother before his arrival at Watch Fortress Erioch, and his skills in fighting xenos have only improved during his stay. Prior to his secondment, the Space Marine participated in a 20-year-long expedition through the star systems on the galactic rim, near the Ultima Segmentum. As part of his tactical reviews, he began to carefully study different techniques by which various xenoforms employ their natural weapons. He requested an assignment with the Deathwatch immediately after his successful and honourable return from that expedition. Since his arrival within the Jericho Reach, Brother Nayle has constantly studied xenos during his missions and those under containment at the Watch Fortress. The central focus of his studies is to identify a universally applicable approach to melee encounters with xenos that responds appropriately to the various forms of natural weapons. As he continues to expand his studies, he often requests that other Astartes provide any available information to him that they uncover through the course of their missions. While he has shown little sign of completing his treatise, it is clear that he has become a very capable melee combatant against xenos forces.


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#66
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I would like to echo brother Filius' questoin on recommended sources for the End Times.


From Warhammer wiki, uncited:
 

Brother Corben Nayle - Brother Nayle was an accomplished Battle-Brother before his arrival at Watch Fortress Erioch, and his skills in fighting xenos have only improved during his stay. Prior to his secondment, the Space Marine participated in a 20-year-long expedition through the star systems on the galactic rim, near the Ultima Segmentum. As part of his tactical reviews, he began to carefully study different techniques by which various xenoforms employ their natural weapons. He requested an assignment with the Deathwatch immediately after his successful and honourable return from that expedition. Since his arrival within the Jericho Reach, Brother Nayle has constantly studied xenos during his missions and those under containment at the Watch Fortress. The central focus of his studies is to identify a universally applicable approach to melee encounters with xenos that responds appropriately to the various forms of natural weapons. As he continues to expand his studies, he often requests that other Astartes provide any available information to him that they uncover through the course of their missions. While he has shown little sign of completing his treatise, it is clear that he has become a very capable melee combatant against xenos forces.

 

 

That's the one. 


Edited by Welcheren, 14 January 2015 - 03:28 PM.


#67
Welcheren

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Just read through what the wiki has on the End Times (at http://warhammer40k....40,000_Universe) and if it is no too far off, we can proceed to other participants' questions, if you like.



#68
Conn Eremon

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You should use Lexicanum over that one, only because it tends to cite more and better, however both have their flaws. My workday is beginning, so I won't answer in full. Lexicanum should give you an idea, even if not fully accurate.
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#69
Filius

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Lexicanums Page on the Time of Ending is quite short, but it exists: http://wh40k.lexican.../Time_of_Ending


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#70
Filius

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And by the Way: Corben Nayle is one of two "Noteable Novamerines in the Jericho Reach" in the Book "Honour the Chapter" page 75 of the Deathwatch Roleplaying Game from Fantasy Flight Games, 2012. And after reading the Novamarines Lexicanum Article I can see, why the guys over at the lexicanum might not want to add him to the wiki: The Novamarines are even more Hardliners than the Ultramarines. I really don't see Astartes who think that "deviation from Imperial norms is considered anathema, with a particular disgust saved for xenos life-form" breaking the ban on doing research about xenos.


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#71
TDF

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There's no-one at Lexicanum deciding what is canon and what isn't. If that guy isn't on the Lexicanum it's just because no-one's bothered to put him up there yet. Not many people want to sit with a GW book and paraphrase it on to the website and not everyone who does has access to any particular book.

The Lexicanum article for Novamarines contains the bit from Index Astartes ten/fifteen years ago talking about how Novamarine Librarians are consider unusual and none-codex, even though later books (IA9 in particular) describing them as hard-line Codex adherents.

Personally I don't consider it contradictory for a Novamarine to study xenos anatomy to find out how to kill them better. It would be pretty remiss if the Codex Astartes didn't contain useful treatises on how to fight orks, eldar etc, but not all xenos species were known to the Imperium when Guilliman wrote the codex.
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Thanks for the source. thanks.gif

 

That is one interpretation, and seems perfectly valid; though I much prefer Guy Haley's depiction of them in Death of Integrity. There we Novamarines veterans quite capable of showing a degree of respect for genestealer intelligence.

 

Moreover, Haley indicates that as much as the Novas consider themselves as the inheritors of Ultramarine culture they have, nevertheless, drifted from it in some areas. They may very well claim to support the Codex to the hilt, but just as the Ultras slide away in seemingly small ways for practical reasons, so may at least a few of the Novas.

 

I think it's not entirely impossible that someone like brother Nayle suspects the benefits this will have for his chapter and the Imperium. The Novas are noted to be experienced in fighting xenos and the value of taking more than a casual interest might well occur to some. Perhaps this is a reason why brother Nayle requests information from other Astartes among the Deathwatch for info - perhaps he questions those whom he believes might be more willing to respond.  



#73
Conn Eremon

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Remember, even the Ultramarines have a "Tyranid Hunter" formation. It is noted as being a deviancy, but its very existence gives credence to the Novamarines having an interest. Especially since the Codex Astartes is meant to be a living document, constantly updated with insights and stratagems. Who better to update the Codex Astartes with intel on an entirely new xenos race than the Ultramarines, or the Novamarines?


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#74
Gree

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There is a difference between studying xenos and developing tactics against them, as opposed to specializing to an certain extreme in order to fight special breeds of xenos. That's what the Tyranid War Hunters are, Ultramarines specialising against Tyranids. I.e, developing specialist formations to the chapter organization are opposed to merely developing tactics against them.

Really, it's quite the piece of hypocrisy on the part of the Ultramarines, to proudly proclaim adherence to the Codex Astartes and then deviate from it when they get angry enough at some xenos. Especially when they cast out some of their own Captains for deviating from the Codex.

#75
Beta galactosidase

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we also have the Codex calling the 4th Company Captain as the Master of the Fleet. The 4th Company is a Battle-Company, but is its Captain only an administrative commander of the Chapter's ships, meaning that the 4th Company is no different than the 2nd, 3rd or 5th? Or does the commander's role mean that the 4th Company itself could be seen as a sort of specialized ship-fighting company? If they aren't, is there still a specialized ship-fighting force outside of the 1000-manned companies?
 
Maybe, maybe not. Theories abound, and which one you ascribe to depends entirely on either which ones you like or which ones you feel are most appropriate to your Chapter. For instance, I've always been intrigued by the idea of the 4th Company being a specialized ship-fighting company.

 
Have you seen this thread? Pay attention to this quote from Fanatic magazine: "In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleet's own company who provide these Marines, with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area within that same vessel. In other cases, squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in just the same way as a Space Marine battleforce may be made up of squads drawn from several companies across the Chapter under the battle-command of a single, nominated force commander." 
 
 

Another Question from my side: Where are Adpothecarii trained and do they have a Connection to the Mechanikum? As far as I know, Techmarines are sent to Mars for thirty years of training. If you take a look at all the Duties and Fields of Expertise a Apothecarius has, I wonder if they are sent to Mars to study from the Magos Biologis. Aaaand the other way round: I wonder wether the Magos Biologis might want to use the Apothecarii to gather Intel on the Xenos they meet (and kill).


It is not as useful as you could think. Apothecaries' jobs are primarily related to geneseed, and the Emperor created geneseed on Terra, without the Mechanicu(m). While the Adeptus Mechanicus are in charge of geneseed banks and foundings, they are not as expert in it as they are in STC, since the Mechanicum was built specifically around the STC-era technology.
 
It's not just being trained, Techmarines become tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Apothecaries don't.


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