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The Liber Surgery Liber Q&A

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#1976
Bishoujo

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Would secutarii (or some similar category of skitarii) be realistic as Knight House infantry, if the house was bonded to the Mechanicum?

 

Both the Mechanicum and the Knight Houses are groups that seem to operate on a system of vows, favors and promises, rather than a standardized chain of command that you'd see elsewhere in the Imperium.

 

I don't think it would be particularly weird for a Knight House and a Forgeworld to have close ties, with the Forgeworld deploying a number of Skitarii troops to serve as a Knight House's infantry support, in return for a Knight House's honor-bound pledge to support that Forgeworld.

 

A smaller Forgeworld wouldn't necessarily have a particularly massive Titan Legion stationed there, so having the support of a nearby Knight House would make a lot of sense for them.

 

I'm no expert, but I think you can definitely make your idea work and (in my opinion) it should fit into the universe just fine.

 

EDIT: Stupid Typos...


Edited by Bishoujo, 11 May 2018 - 01:17 PM.

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#1977
Qkhitai

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Would secutarii (or some similar category of skitarii) be realistic as Knight House infantry, if the house was bonded to the Mechanicum?

 

Both the Mechanicum and the Knight Houses are groups that seem to operate on a system of vows, favors and promises, rather than a standardized chain of command that you'd see elsewhere in the Imperium.

 

I don't think it would be particularly weird for a Knight House and a Forgeworld to have close ties, with the Forgeworld deploying a number of Skitarii troops to serve as a Knight House's infantry support, in return for a Knight House's honor-bound pledge to support that Forgeworld.

 

A smaller Forgeworld wouldn't necessarily have a particularly massive Titan Legion stationed there, so having the support of a nearby Knight House would make a lot of sense for them.

 

I'm no expert, but I think you can definitely make your idea work and (in my opinion) it should fit into the universe just fine.

 

EDIT: Stupid Typos...

 

 

Thanks! happy.png I think that's a nice way forward. I brushed up a bit on some fluff and I like the idea of a 'thrall-house' that's indentured to a small Mechanicum forge world. That way I can have skitarii from the forge world along side some knights, instead of having them being subservient or men-at-arms.


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#1978
Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch

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So, I’ve had an idea based on something that came up here, about thousand sons that weren’t on prospero when it burned and were still loyal to the Imperium, about a group that became an ultramarine successor in all but geneline after the heresy.

Can geneseed be hybridized? Could you mix two geneseeds to make a single source of generic material?

Is it possible to mix ultramarines and thousand sons, or would the hypotheicical chapter I envision end up split between UM and 1k Son genelines, and the 1ksons line dying out eventually?

I don’t know if I’ll end up doing anything with this idea but it seemed like a mildly fun one.

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#1979
Felix Antipodes

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If you do proceed with this idea, you may want to come up with a reason why they weren't affected by the rubric of Ahriman when it was enacted.
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#1980
Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch

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Good point. Maybe that could be a side effect of the hybridization? There is too much UM geneseed in the younger marines that they aren't hit by the rubric. The older marines mutate and become the dust golems the rubric produces, and the lone librarian or two left is able to direct them, barely. He passes the burden on to a single marine that he chooses, who passes it down in secret, the rubricae to be called out only in times of grave need, much like dreadnoughts.

 

 

Of course, this all relies on geneseed hybridization actually being possible.


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Dosjeska: But then again we are Iron Hands, we will use a hammer as a scalpel. Ace Debonair: Loyalists bow to The Emperor, Heretics bow to their Dark Gods, but everybody bows to Captain Semper.

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There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. -anon [][] Laus Alit Artes-Praise Nourishes the Arts

ETL_Medal_01.gifETL_VI_Banner_03_Custos_Fidei_03_.jpggallery_77459_13226_2824.pnggallery_4664_12529_16642.jpgDawn Blades Iron Gauntlet

Dawn Blades: W/L/D: 1/7/1

Naculan Dynasty: W/L/D: 0/0/0


#1981
Lord Thørn

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I'd say hybridization could be possible, but only for the Cursed founding, and we all know how that turned out. It *may* also be possible with the Ultima Founding but I don't think that would really fit the bill either. However, I always feel I need to say that geneseed hybridisation should never be explicitly confirmed - there is some canon confirmation that it was attempted, but none about it succeeding.

On the other hand, nothing says that the Rubrik could not be attempted later by someone other than ahriman, so there is little need for the hybridisation in the first place - if some characters of the chapter are deceived into thinking this ritual could bring about the redemption of their chapter and they decide to go on a quest to find the scrolls explaining the "recipe", only to find to their horror what the Rubrik *really* does, that would be a far more compelling story (imo)

In that case, the entire chapter (apart from the Librarium) should be affected, and they are declared effectively defunct - only when the Chapter is reinforced by the Primaris are they bought back up to strength.
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#1982
Beta galactosidase

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The straight forward method for hybrid gene seed is simple in concept, and in a less conspicuous form it happens all the time. Marines have a separate zygote for each organ, and a hybrid marine is just made by using zygotes from one donor marine for some of their organs and zygotes from a different marine for the others. "When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine. Once removed by surgery, the progenoid must be carefully prepared, its individual gene-seeds checked for mutation, and sound gene-seeds stored."

 

The type case is Honsou the half-breed. He is an iron warrior with some gene seed from the imperial fists. Each organ is grown in a lab from its zygote, and at this point, especially for the iron warriors who are based on the daemon planet medrengard, that some of those organs will not be viable due to mutation. So, when making a marine it may be necessary to have some back-up organs ready for implantation, so it's possible that due to the number of back-ups required, stolen imperial fists gene seed could be used.

 

It must be more common, however, for the back-up implant to come from a marine of the same chapter/legion. So if a single Ultramarine's progenoid is harvested, and all its zygotes cultured to be implanted into an aspirant, that somewhere along that process of zygote to culturing to implantation, one or two organs will fail, and need to be replaced by one from another ultramarine. This seems routine, and results in an unremarkably "hybrid" marine.

 

Then there is a slightly more noticeable form of hybrid. Say the mechanicus were making a successor to the Black Dragons. Some of the black dragons have bone blades projecting from their bodies, which we can assume come from a mutation in the ossmodula. Perhaps however their other organs are exceptionally pure and a chapter is being made to exploit those organs. Regardless of which primarch is theirs, supposedly it's Vulkan, we know that none of the first founding legions have bone blades, so there exists a normally functioning ossmodula that the black dragons' ossmodula is descended from. If the dragons are descended from the Salamanders, it should be simple to implant an aspirant with eighteen Black Dragon organs and one Salamander ossmodula, creating a definitely "hybrid" marine, since we know from the mutation that black dragon geneseed is identifiably different from salamander geneseed, but they have been combined in one body.

 

This is also how hybrid chapters are made, since the gene seed for a new chapter always comes from a single, hybridized marine, even if it is the Ultramarine/Ultramarine type of hybrid describe above. “A single suitable gene- seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test slaves.... From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenolds and so on. it takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs.“  From this it is indicated that when  making a thousand sons successor, they may not find functioning Thousand Sons zygotes for, say, six of the organs. Ultramarine organs can be used instead, the full set of 12:6 Thousand Sons:Ultras organs can be implanted in a test slave, and then that ratio will be reproduced into 1000 marines' worth of organs.

 

Lost loyalist thousand sons who have appropriated some Ultramarine geneseed to keep their implantation rates up may have a more complicated issue if they choose to use the ultra zygotes on an as-needed basis and therefore have different levels of hybridization in each marine. However, I think it likely that if they have the opportunity they will experiment to find the most stable combination, since ad-hoc hybridization probably leads to greater levels of mutation down the road, as successive generations of TS progenoids have to reproduce random instances of Ultra organs.


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#1983
Lord Thørn

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The type case is Honsou the half-breed. He is an iron warrior with some gene seed from the imperial fists. Each organ is grown in a lab from its zygote, and at this point, especially for the iron warriors who are based on the daemon planet medrengard, that some of those organs will not be viable due to mutation. So, when making a marine it may be necessary to have some back-up organs ready for implantation, so it's possible that due to the number of back-ups required, stolen imperial fists gene seed could be used.

While I still haven't read Storm of Iron (a travesty for an Iron Warriors player I know), Lexicanum has this to say about Honsou:

Spoiler

This tells me that Honsou is far from a case type.

 

Further, if gene-seed hybridisation were so common or easy as you make out, loyalist chapters would likely have no geneseed deficiencies, yet we know that even first founding chapters develop deficiencies (Raven Guard and Imperial Fist ones being particularly famous examples). The fact that hybridisation has rarely, if at all, been mentioned in official GW/BL/FW publications is further indication that it's not all that common.



#1984
Kelborn

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Hey guys,

 

It's been a while but I need your advice on something. :)

 

Because of the latest release of Knights + codex, etc. I'm currently intending to revise my ol' House Valcorian and expand upon them.

 

Some of you might remember the Grail Wardens project a couple of years ago, in which several Space Marine chapter, etc. were guarding an artifact, which held a rift in check and so on.

 

In order to honor this, I'm thinking of reusing said idea and implement it into House Valcorian's fluff. As I'm reading Watchers of the Throne and afterwards, Master of Mankind, I'm leaning on including another faction (most likely Custodes) as a main ally in the Dark Imperium setting.

 

Idea:

Grail is crucial in establishing sigils, which keep a warp rift (within an ancient temple) in check. Said sigils were broken and thus, the grail is required again. It was kept safe on either Terra or another location but was lost during the events of the Opening of the Rift, etc.

As House Valcorian participated in the original crusade to seal the rift, they proclaim a quest of recovering the grail.

 

Problem is that while brainstorming, following constellations popped up and I honestly can't decide which to pick or rather, which grouping would be the most interesting / potential one:

 

- Imperial Knights (Valcorian) & Adeptus Custodes (shield company of Shadowkeepers and temporary guardians of the grail)

- Imperial Knights & Grey Knights (foresaw that the grail was recovered by chaos forces, which want to use several new rifts / storms)

- Imperial Knigts & a new Space Marine chapter (possibly a Thousand Sons successor; basically WoW Demonhunters in Speezz), which operates close to the rift in secrecy; if the rift is left unchecked, it will expand and cause several new ones, turning an entire sector into a realm of chaos

 

I'd definitely want to work on some mortal forces and make them the main faction. Only their sidekick is something I'm struggling with. sweat.gif


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#1985
No Foes Remain

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I have a question in regards to Chapters turning rogue/renegade but not turning to chaos. Basically, what would be good enough reason to cause a chapter to go "censored.gif it, we're done"? I was toying with the idea of the sub-sector that the chapter is based in suffered from a large ork Waaaagh and the chapter bore the brunt of it, causing critial damage to their home world, fortress, chapter and fleet then called up as to why they didn't help out with the Waaagh in the rest of the sub-sector. Maybe throw in some damage to shrine worlds whose leaders then bitched to the sector commanders about the chapter.

 

Would this be feasable or would it need work/refinement if so in what areas?


Formerly known as Cpt Ventris                                                  Legions/Chapters/Armies/Forces/Whatever:

30k: 141st Expeditionary Fleet 'Legion of Terra' - XIIIth Legion Detachment 'Warborn'

40k: SM: Astral Claws 3rd company; Warrior's of Truth

BA Successor: Crimson Saints

DA Successor: Void Angels

Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard: 83rd Tyrant's Legion; Warrior's of Truth Milita and Auxilia

Renegade Astartes: Black Legion - The Unbroken Brotherhood

True-Scale: The Legion ofBlackshields


#1986
WarriorFish

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Sounds more than plausible to me. Much depends on the Chapter itself in how it approaches and views things, and there could be events leading up to this that make them a little disgruntled with how things are/they are treated which cause this to be the metaphorical final straw. Taking damage to core Chapter assets is a good way to rile Marines and if this is compounded by some ungrateful bureaucrats (who the Marines would easily see as having no authority to question their actions) they could be pushed to breaking point.

 

The interesting thing about rogue Marines is that their betrayal is more complex. They could still fight for humanity, and the Emperor etc but it's the Imperium they turn their back on (or more accurately, some parts of the management?).


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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#1987
No Foes Remain

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Sounds more than plausible to me. Much depends on the Chapter itself in how it approaches and views things, and there could be events leading up to this that make them a little disgruntled with how things are/they are treated which cause this to be the metaphorical final straw. Taking damage to core Chapter assets is a good way to rile Marines and if this is compounded by some ungrateful bureaucrats (who the Marines would easily see as having no authority to question their actions) they could be pushed to breaking point.

 

The interesting thing about rogue Marines is that their betrayal is more complex. They could still fight for humanity, and the Emperor etc but it's the Imperium they turn their back on (or more accurately, some parts of the management?).

 

That was pretty much my thought. I am now thinking of having them based in the Pacificus so they would have had to deal with the Nova Terra Interregnum and the Macharian Heresy as well as the Age of Apostasy on top of that would end up with them having a low regard to the Imperial Creed and on top of that with the Ecclesiarchy having a large presence at the Segmentum command at Hydraphur would have an affect/effect(? can never remember which one it is) as well. Leading to them leaving the Imperium then heading for the outer rim and finding some forgotten worlds to protect and recruit from. Still loyal to the Emperor but disgusted at what the Imperium has become and seeing it as a perversion of His views.

 

So with the reasons and actions to them leaving fesable how would they go about resupplying after they leave? I can see them squeezing out everything they can from their supply lines while they take what their can from their fortress and the homeworld, including whatever is left of the population, before disappearing. That still leaves them with problems after leaving in terms of weapons, power armour, vehicles, aircraft and ships.

 

In regards to their chapter organisation, table top wise I may use the Space Wolf codex for them, they won't be adhearing much to the codex after leaving the Imperium proper.


Formerly known as Cpt Ventris                                                  Legions/Chapters/Armies/Forces/Whatever:

30k: 141st Expeditionary Fleet 'Legion of Terra' - XIIIth Legion Detachment 'Warborn'

40k: SM: Astral Claws 3rd company; Warrior's of Truth

BA Successor: Crimson Saints

DA Successor: Void Angels

Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard: 83rd Tyrant's Legion; Warrior's of Truth Milita and Auxilia

Renegade Astartes: Black Legion - The Unbroken Brotherhood

True-Scale: The Legion ofBlackshields


#1988
WarriorFish

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Chapter forges can do much, so it's easy enough to have them maintain what they have. For more significant resupply they'd need to get a bit creative, there's the more direct taking but also trade and bargaining. Perhaps if they find a suitable new home they can source things there? Finding a cache might help a bit too. Their journey is as difficult as you make it :)


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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#1989
bloodhound23

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Sounds more than plausible to me. Much depends on the Chapter itself in how it approaches and views things, and there could be events leading up to this that make them a little disgruntled with how things are/they are treated which cause this to be the metaphorical final straw. Taking damage to core Chapter assets is a good way to rile Marines and if this is compounded by some ungrateful bureaucrats (who the Marines would easily see as having no authority to question their actions) they could be pushed to breaking point.

 

The interesting thing about rogue Marines is that their betrayal is more complex. They could still fight for humanity, and the Emperor etc but it's the Imperium they turn their back on (or more accurately, some parts of the management?).

 

That was pretty much my thought. I am now thinking of having them based in the Pacificus so they would have had to deal with the Nova Terra Interregnum and the Macharian Heresy as well as the Age of Apostasy on top of that would end up with them having a low regard to the Imperial Creed and on top of that with the Ecclesiarchy having a large presence at the Segmentum command at Hydraphur would have an affect/effect(? can never remember which one it is) as well. Leading to them leaving the Imperium then heading for the outer rim and finding some forgotten worlds to protect and recruit from. Still loyal to the Emperor but disgusted at what the Imperium has become and seeing it as a perversion of His views.

 

So with the reasons and actions to them leaving fesable how would they go about resupplying after they leave? I can see them squeezing out everything they can from their supply lines while they take what their can from their fortress and the homeworld, including whatever is left of the population, before disappearing. That still leaves them with problems after leaving in terms of weapons, power armour, vehicles, aircraft and ships.

 

In regards to their chapter organisation, table top wise I may use the Space Wolf codex for them, they won't be adhearing much to the codex after leaving the Imperium proper.

 

I did a bunch of these, minus the still loyal to the Emperor part. 



#1990
Servant of Dante

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So, in looking around for major conflicts in and around Dimmamar (a Cardinal world and homeworld of Saint Sebastian Thor), I found the page about the Aschen War. I really don't know the context of this, the wiki page only refers to Baddab War Book 2 by forge world, which I obviously don't own. So, rather than *ahem* finding the book somewhere, I thought I'd come to this thread.

 

The wiki page mentions that the Order of the Valorous Heart is involved. I know that the source is a Marine focused supplement, but what is the extent of the Sisters' involvement? Dimmamar is a rather significant cardinal world, since Thor is, to put it lightly, a rather significant Saint. What does the book in question say about the Sisters? Are there any numbers (as in how many sisters were present)? Any notes on the battles they fought? Is there any mention of any other Orders, militant or otherwise? 

 

Also, a bit of wider context about the Aschen War itself would be helpful. I assume it's part of the Baddab War in general, although I know basically nothing about that either. I don't need a page write up :D but keep in mind I don't know any of this stuff.

 

Thanks for the help! (I'm contributing! yay! :P )



#1991
No Foes Remain

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Does it give a page number at all?


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Formerly known as Cpt Ventris                                                  Legions/Chapters/Armies/Forces/Whatever:

30k: 141st Expeditionary Fleet 'Legion of Terra' - XIIIth Legion Detachment 'Warborn'

40k: SM: Astral Claws 3rd company; Warrior's of Truth

BA Successor: Crimson Saints

DA Successor: Void Angels

Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard: 83rd Tyrant's Legion; Warrior's of Truth Milita and Auxilia

Renegade Astartes: Black Legion - The Unbroken Brotherhood

True-Scale: The Legion ofBlackshields


#1992
Servant of Dante

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Ah, yes I should have been more specific.

Here’s the wiki article I was referring to:
http://warhammer40k....wiki/Aschen_War

And here’s the only reference in the article’s reference section:
Imperial Armour Volume Ten - The Badab War - Part Two, pg. 126

#1993
No Foes Remain

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Great, now going to have a look now.

 

 

Edit:

 

The Vanquishing of the Horned God, the Aschen War [307.M40]

 

In 300.M40, after a bloody cult-inspired revolt on the caridnal world of Dimmamar expose how overstretched Imperial control over the supprounding region had become, a series of brushfire revolts and incursions erupted acrossed the sub-sector which would later become known as the Aschen War. Slowly stripped of much of its defences over the course of several generations to provide for the needs of other pressing conflics nearby, this border region was ill-eqipped to stave off catastrophe when it came.  Very rapidly a three-way war developled between the beleaguered Imperal Protectors, Chaos worshipping cults who had subsumed several planetary defence garrisons to their cause and Ork marauders pouring across the boarder from the ajacent Blood-Maw Cluster. The Imperial counter-invasio was led by the combined forces of two Space Marine Chapters - the Exorcists and the Dark Hands, backed by the Necromundan 54th and 60th Imperial Guard Rifles and the Battle Sisters of the Order of the Valorous Heart. The Exorcists quickly realise that one of the keys to victory would be locating and destoying the single dark master of the many names that lurked behind the divergent Chaos cults in the region, a daemonic creature on Dimmamar was known as the Horned God. A thing of shadow and malice, the Horned God was a master of the helish pacts that engorged on the souls of its servants had slaughtered. When the Exorcists finally cornered the Daemon Prince in the maze-like pre-human ruins of the dead world of Belphago, it was atteneded by a guard of thousands of its fanatical followers and several warbands of the Night Lords Chaos Space Marines it had bound to its will.

 

What followed was one of the hardest fought and costly actions in the Chapter's history, as the Exorcists with the aid of a hastily composed Ordo Malleus strike team fought their way through suicidal attack waves of cultists and the skillful ambushes and vicious assault of the Night Lords before confronting the blackly-burning daemon that served the Horned God. In the final, titanic struggle amid the fallen ruins of a temple the dark gods older than the history of Man, the Exorcist Enochian Guard and a handful of surviving Inquisitors and their agents confronted the Lord of Shadows in all its blasphemous and unholy glory Shurgging of shot, shell and energy blast, the darkling beast slashed throgh the Exorcists' ranks, shearing Terminator-clad warriors in half with contemptous ease and ripping asunder the Daemonhosts of Inquisitor Grey before devouring their master whole. The Exorcists refused to retreat from the horror that confronted them despite their losses , and slowly the weight of their attacks began to take their toll. The turning point of the battle came when one of the Chapter's Dreadnoughts, the Venerable Sybra, sacraficed himself to rip a great chunk of the Daemon's smouldering body away and exposed its blazing heart. This noble act allowed the Exorcists to press their attack while the daemon reeled in agony. With a daring lunge Librarian Malachite pierced the fould heart with his force spear, and with the upmost exerton of his powers and adamant will through the weapon severed the Daemon's connection with the mortal plane, finally vanquishing it.

 

As the arch-Daemon's cries of rage and frustration echoed into eternity, all across the Aschen sub-sector, those who had bartered their souls for a measure of the Horned-God's power paid the price and were consumed by black flames, shattering the power of the Chaos revolt. Fully a third of the Exorcists Chapter had perished, but the tide of the war was now in the Imperium's favour, and within a year, the sub-sector was brought back under Imperial Control.

 

 

And thats all he wrote. Straight from the book itself.


Edited by No Foes Remain, 15 July 2018 - 07:45 PM.

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Formerly known as Cpt Ventris                                                  Legions/Chapters/Armies/Forces/Whatever:

30k: 141st Expeditionary Fleet 'Legion of Terra' - XIIIth Legion Detachment 'Warborn'

40k: SM: Astral Claws 3rd company; Warrior's of Truth

BA Successor: Crimson Saints

DA Successor: Void Angels

Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard: 83rd Tyrant's Legion; Warrior's of Truth Milita and Auxilia

Renegade Astartes: Black Legion - The Unbroken Brotherhood

True-Scale: The Legion ofBlackshields


#1994
Servant of Dante

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Thanks! As I kinda expected it was a throw-away line, but good to know none the less.Also important to note the daemon himself was not on Dimmamar itself. This will actually affect the fluff I write about the Sororitas in general in the Dark Imperium. I had kinda arbitrarily decided the Order of the Ebon Chalice has a Preceptory on Dimmamar, since it's very important and the Ebon Chalice is kinda "sisters original" but the mention of the Valorous Heart and not the Ebon Chalice makes that less believable.


Edited by Servant of Dante, 15 July 2018 - 11:38 PM.


#1995
Minigiant

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I know talking about a Xenos Index is more uncommon here but, I would love some help brainstorming.

 

I am going to be converting a Necron Knight army and I would love your thoughts as to the background of it.

 

1) I dont want it to be a household that succumbs to brainscarabs

 

2) I want to go the route that the Necrons built these machines of war

 

So why? What would drive them to diverge so greatly from the mode of operation that is common place among the dynasties



#1996
Chaplain Dosjetka

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Exiled dynasty that is forced to use Imperial methods/technologies meshed with whatever they could salvage/bring them as they fled annihilation to develop an army to help them take back what is rightfully theirs?
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"Suffer not the Heretic to live."

 

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#1997
Chaplain Dosjetka

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No Foes Remain: also, remember that it's not because your Chapter is on bad terms with the Ecclesiarchy that they're on bad terms with all the constituent parts of the Imperium. The Imperium is not a large monolithic entity; it is fragmented and often the various parts are in conflict with each other over power, influence, wealth, ressources, etc.
The Administratum can be considered a rival of the Imperial Church (ref. prelude to the Age of Apostasy) so they would perhaps seek to benefit from the situation. Likewise, the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't exactly friends with the Ecclesiarchy so I'm sure they would be happy to keep supplying your Chapter... for a fair price. ;)

Food for thought. :tu:

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"Suffer not the Heretic to live."

 

Black Templars - W:4 L:1 D:0


#1998
Minigiant

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Exiled dynasty that is forced to use Imperial methods/technologies meshed with whatever they could salvage/bring them as they fled annihilation to develop an army to help them take back what is rightfully theirs?

 

It wont be imperial tech for sure.

 

But bringing back something that is rightfully theirs is something.

 

My current train of thought is pairing a catastrophe for which they want to reclaim they place with a god-killing complex. So the crypteks are ordered to build bodies that can do both!


Edited by Minigiant, 07 August 2018 - 07:02 AM.






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