Drippy Waffler Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hey all, I figure, because Horus Heresy stuff is expensive, we should come up with a cost effecient army list - basically min maxing. Not points though - money. So on this thread, lets make a generic 30k Legion list as a basis for expansion. For example, instead of having a termie squad with a heavy flamer and a power fist (requires 2 different sets) pick one or the other. Right now I have a list that is about 2 points per New Zealand dollar, which is where I come from, or 4 points per pound, or 2 points per 85ish cents US. This is not mean to be competitive but rather as a starting point for a fluffy or competitive army. Allies are fine but this will be a Legion army. (No unbound either) Right now I have... A praetor with artificer armour, digital lasers, iron halo and master crafted paragon blade. (HQ are good for this as you can pack a bunch of points into a couple models. + a command squad with various states of gear. 365 points. 2x 10 breachers or assualt marines, depending on fluff, or one of each. Assault is particularly good as you can get the bundle with weapons for your command squad. Around 30£ per 5 men, these start off at 250 points as opposed to the tactical squads 150. Add gear as needed. Contempter mortis - cheaper points wise but it does mean you have some anti air - 50£ ish Termies + special weapons set 50£ ish Artillery tank - 60£ 1500 points. 400£ give or take. Since I'm rolling Death Guard I'll take a basilisk, 5 breachers, model the command squad with the shields, and have cataphractiis with a heavy flamer. Tl;dr - try and make the cheapest money list possible for a legion, forge world only. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonite Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Forge World only, cost effective? Firstly, unless your going to use a Rite of War, a Praetor is a waste of time, give it a skull head and call it a Chaplain if you can. Saves you points If you DO use the Praetor though, don't both with breachers and take the Rite of War: Pride of the Legion. This lets you take any Elite Terminators as Troops. That's not just the regular Termi sets, but the slightly more expensive money wise but not so much points wise Deathshroud (for Death Guard), or other types of Elite Terminators depending on the legion. In addition, while the Artilary tank is a nice choice, taking the likes of a Spartan eats up 300 odd points but comes out realiively good value for money as a result and safely transports the likes of Deathshroud. Keep in mind that as well as being Troops under PotL, Deathshroud are Command Squads too. Contemptor Morti still fit in an all Terminator list too, and the Spartan allows for anti-tank weapons that you might not have on the Terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Good stuff Leonite, but at 1500 would a pride of the legion list have enough numbers? A 5 man termie squad I got was 250 points using the special weapons kit, so if you were to allocate 500 points for the spartan and mortis thats only 20 infantry total, including IC's. Also I went for praetor to spend points, not save 'em ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloroutofspace Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Why do you limit that to FW-only models? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 By Forge World only I mean not 40k Tactical Squad conversions etc. But for things like Drop Pods that will obviously need to be GW and of course, you could convert and add bits but when I had this idea I was think 90% Forge World. Also, this is a staeting point for personal customisation of units. Also Leonite, I had a look at a pride of the legion army and a praetor, 4 x 5 man terminater squads and a couple contemptors are around 1500 so thats a really good option, considering a termie squad is 46£ (with weapons) and a contemptor is 50£ish. Any more ideas folks? Keep 'im coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Legion Praetor -Terminator Armor, Combibolter, Paragon Blade, Iron Halo -Rite of War: Pride of the Legion 155 Legion Dreadnought Talon -2 Dreadnoughts, each with plasmacannon, DCCW with built in combibolter 270 Legion Terminator Squad -Sergeant and 9 Marines, Indomitus Plate, 5x combimelta, 5x combiplasma, 1x power sword, 8x powerfist, 1x chainfist 445 points Legion Terminator Squad -Sergeant and 8 Marines, Indomitus Plate, 4x combimelta, 5x combiplasma, 1x power sword, 7x powerfist, 1x chainfist 403 points Legion Predator Strike Armoured Squadron -2 Predators with Autocannon/Lascannon Sponsons 230 points This army requires: 2 GW Predators ($92.40) 4 GW Terminator boxes ($160) 2 GW Venerable Dreadnoughts ($74) 2 FW Legion Combiweapon sets ($44) (Praetor constructed from leftover terminator) Minor Conversion Necessary: Removing Crux Terminatus from 20 shoulderpads Total: $370.40, 1503 points 4 points per dollar. 6 hull points of AV13, 6 hull points of AV12, 4 lascannons, (equivalent of) 4 autocannons, 2 plasmacannons, 10 combiplasmas, 9 combimeltas, and 20 terminators at 1500 points. It's not the best list, but I think it'll have a fighting chance, and I don't think you can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Oh to live in a world where terminators are 40 USD :) In New Zealand Forge World is only about 20% more expensive than GW. A terminator set is 70 USD - the same as Forge World. In other news, that list looks pretty solid... Probably the ironclad dread would be the best to replicate 30k... Also, I didn't realise you could have 40k terminators in 30k. Intersting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You can usually count on finding a 20% discount online for GW stuff here in the US. That list would benefit from Salamanders or IH legion rules, either for the leadership rerolls of the former or the durability increase of the latter. The Venerable Dread models are probably a bit overdressed for the Heresy, but they come with plasmacannons, and the AP2 blast will help with some crowd control in the list. 40k Ironclad models don't really do anything to replicate 30k Dreadnoughts - hurricane bolter isn't an option, and I don't think you can afford to have double DCCW dreads in a list that's already slow and short ranged. Gotta have the heavy firepower in there. Staying strictly FW... I'd probably ditch the Predators and Dreadnoughts, go for Contemptors instead of either of those. Tartaros terminators instead. Just buy Legion Combiweapon sets and the Tartaros powerfist sets - you'll have a bunch of combibolters and combiflamers leftover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonite Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Good stuff Leonite, but at 1500 would a pride of the legion list have enough numbers? A 5 man termie squad I got was 250 points using the special weapons kit, so if you were to allocate 500 points for the spartan and mortis thats only 20 infantry total, including IC's. Also I went for praetor to spend points, not save 'em Oh, you wouldn't be winning on Numbers, no, but a Termi squad, especially in a spartan, can be much harder to remove when in the Heresy, Capatchii having 4++, Spartans to carry the more normal ones like Deathshroud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amazarak Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So, I'm just going to throw this out there; there are incredibly inexpensive standard dreads available on ebay. Such deals (assault on black reach dreads, poorly painted dreads, etc) can easily be used to flesh out a 30k force rather cheaply. Additionally, dreads seem rather effective (BS5 in the crusade book) as you can kit out a talon for a nearly any battlefield role. I personally acquired three for next to nothing on craigslist and ebay, and redid them with magnetized puppets war arms for a more 30k look. I'm also adding CSM havoc launchers to their shoulders (from ebay) for more glorious dakka. What started out as a cheap $ source of 30k points has become a much more expensive labor of love over the past 2 years, but my initial point still stands. You could probably do 3 dreads at 330 points for 30 bucks or less to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Ezekyle Abaddon + Loken (legal Pre Heresy); 390pts £57 = ~£0.15/pt (Abaddon+Loken) Justaerin Terminator Squad, 2 Additional Justaerin, Multi-melta = 295pts, £99 = ~£0.34/pt Justaerin Terminator Squad, 2 Additional Justaerin, Multi-melta = 295pts, £99 = ~£0.34/pt Spartan Assault Tank, Auxiliary Drive, Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield, Frag Assault Launchers = 360pts, £101 = ~£0.28/pt (Spartan Tank) Legion Basilisk, Auxiliary Drive, Extra Armour = 160pts, £61 = ~£0.39/pt Horus; 500pts, £62 = £0.13/pt (Horus) = 2000pts, £479, ~£0.24 Around 24p per point for a 2K list. Not exactly the most effective against a competent player, but for the sheer, HOLY GOD factor of having a Spartan and Horus in your deployment zone turn 2 is enough. Plus, a Basilisk, because a S8 Pie Plate is always fun to put on Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Ezekyle Abaddon + Loken (legal Pre Heresy); 390pts £57 = ~£0.15/pt (Abaddon+Loken) Justaerin Terminator Squad, 2 Additional Justaerin, Multi-melta = 295pts, £99 = ~£0.34/pt Justaerin Terminator Squad, 2 Additional Justaerin, Multi-melta = 295pts, £99 = ~£0.34/pt Spartan Assault Tank, Auxiliary Drive, Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield, Frag Assault Launchers = 360pts, £101 = ~£0.28/pt (Spartan Tank) Legion Basilisk, Auxiliary Drive, Extra Armour = 160pts, £61 = ~£0.39/pt Horus; 500pts, £62 = £0.13/pt (Horus) = 2000pts, £479, ~£0.24 Around 24p per point for a 2K list. Not exactly the most effective against a competent player, but for the sheer, HOLY GOD factor of having a Spartan and Horus in your deployment zone turn 2 is enough. Plus, a Basilisk, because a S8 Pie Plate is always fun to put on Marines. Thats a good starting point in theory but I was think of a list that could be used by any legion. If anyone could use these ideas to put a list together that would be awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think I have got it.... Terminator Praetor Relic of your choice Digital Lasers Mastercrafted Weapon Whatever CQC and ranged weapons you want. 200-250 depending on how you kit it out - paragon blade and charger (praetor set) 227 Points Troops 2 x 10 breachers/assualt - 500 points + upgrades Heavy Support 10 Lascannons + Scanner - 440 - 450 is you add artificer armour 10 caviliers + Scanner - 340 - 350 if you add artificer armour. You probably won't need arty armour on heavy support but if you have the spare points... Also if you took breachers you can swap the archeotech pistol for a shield and have a badass breacher sgt., Or sell him and make some cash back. Also, like I said at the start the assualt squads bundle has the pwer weapon as well so if you were to add some tac or breacher squads you have upgrades already. £300 for 1500 points or £0.20 per point. Can this be improved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonite Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think I have got it.... Terminator Praetor Relic of your choice Digital Lasers Mastercrafted Weapon Whatever CQC and ranged weapons you want. 200-250 depending on how you kit it out - paragon blade and charger (praetor set) 227 Points Troops 2 x 10 breachers/assualt - 500 points + upgrades Heavy Support 10 Lascannons + Scanner - 440 - 450 is you add artificer armour 10 caviliers + Scanner - 340 - 350 if you add artificer armour. You probably won't need arty armour on heavy support but if you have the spare points... Also if you took breachers you can swap the archeotech pistol for a shield and have a badass breacher sgt., Or sell him and make some cash back. Also, like I said at the start the assualt squads bundle has the pwer weapon as well so if you were to add some tac or breacher squads you have upgrades already. £300 for 1500 points or £0.20 per point. Can this be improved? Why take Terminator armor and a Praetor? If you take the armor, take a unit for him to join. Again, this can vary based on Legion, but the Red Butchers, the Deathshroud, the Phoenix Spears, the Justarian, whatever Alpha Legion have, Fire Drakes... almost every legion has one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Thats a good point - for some reason in my head I was invisioning a super kitted out praetor with the tellyport relic buzzing all over the place, then I remembered that you can't assault and deep strike on the same turn :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Praetor Relic of your choice Digital Lasers Mastercrafted Weapon Whatever CQC and ranged weapons you want. 200-250 depending on how you kit him out Troops 2 x 10 breachers/assualt - 500 points + upgrades Heavy Support 10 Lascannons + Scanner - 440 - 450 is you add artificer armour 10 caviliers + Scanner - 340 - 350 if you add artificer armour. 1500 points for £300, £0.20 a point. After that you could add some stuff to get to 2000 - Stormblade 2 x contemptors/mortis Assorted tanks Styrix knight (not sure how many points these are but if they are the same as the other £110 titan it would be 390 points) plus a castellax or 2, or some tarantulas. PRIMARCH!!!! Legion specific stuff. Thanks for all the help guys and gals. This seems like a solid foundation for any legion list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Thanks for all the help guys and gals. This seems like a solid foundation for any legion list... It's not. It's a foundation for losing every game you play. 1. A 200-250 point Praetor is universally awful, and he is even worse in a 1500 point list. He is dead weight without a transport. He loses to a 5 man terminator squad with powerfists. 2. Heavy Support Squads are just about the worst lascannon carriers. 3. 10 man breacher squads are terrible value. Just taking these alone is enough to kneecap your list before anything else. 4. Heavy Support squads can't take Volkite Calivers - I assume you meant Culverins. 30k isn't cheap, that much is for certain. Trying to get the most points for your money is certainly a worthwhile goal. But if you focus on that above all else you will end up with a list that cannot win games, and I don't care about what anyone says about being a fluff gamer and not being WAAC - getting your face beat in every single time you play will get old, it will get old quickly, and you will regret your purchases. You gotta have some kind of chance at winning, even if it's not 50/50. Drippy Waffler, your list loses on turn 2 to any list that brings a Whirlwind Scorpius. That tank is capable of slaughtering marines without even breaking a sweat. As soon as your lascannon squad is gone, you're down 33% of your list, have no anti-vehicle, and will have your other heavy support squad on the chopping block immediately after. Once those are safely cleaned up, you have a useless, overgeared Praetor and 20 Breachers vs a possibly untouched enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 First of all, yes, I meant culverins :) I hadn't even considered a scorpius as I didn't think of putting them in the list - a fatal mistake that Im glad you pointed out. In terms of anti tank, I figure a possibility is dropping the lascannon squad and replacing it with either melta bombs for breachers or an... anti-tank tank? I was think of Spartans when I added the lascannons. What suggestions do you have decent AV 14 + destuction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonite Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The Spartan Assualt Tank is AP 14 all around, can be upgraded to not be harmed by the special rules of Melta's and lances, and carries a whole tone of Las Cannons. If you would rather go fast, Javelin Land Speeders can also do that job, but the Spartan has the added effect of being something to carry an Egg Squad. Now firstly, drop the Relic, at this many points it's not worth it, and you might be best picking from several legions first. Then, if you still want cost effectiveness, take Pride of the Legion and one of the Elite Terminator squads, generics if you must, but the various special terminators most legions have are generally much better in their assigned roles, although that's usually Close Combat of some variety, with Death Guard's Deathshroud (in lower numbers they say) and Red Butchers from the World Eaters being some of the premier close Combat ones for ripping lots of smaller people to shreds, whereas the likes of Salamander Firedrakes are more for elite and tank hunting. Seriously though, choose one or a few of the legions. Look into the bundle kits that Forgeworld do, they're life and money savers. Consider if you want a special unit or not. And keep in mind that even at this low level of points, a Primarch simply isn't worth it until you get higher up, and some would insist the same of a Praetor. I myself only have one in my list to take both The Reaping Rite of War and to take a Deathshroud Squad. Otherwise, if you aren't going to use a Rite of War or some other reason like that, don't bother with a Praetor and take something more fitting, a Chaplain usually fits in an assault squad like a 20 man Despoiler (CCW and Bolt Pistol) Tactical Marines or the likes of a Red Butcher Squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, lascannons aren't even all that great at taking down Spartans - a Pride of the Legion list with a big squad of terminators in a spartan + praetor + primus medicae would do a pretty nasty number on this list as well. With Flare Shield, the Lascannons are effectively s8 vs the front arc of the Spartan and can only glance on 6's, and with only one squad you can't create any opportunities for flanking fire with the lascannons. The opponent could always keep their Spartan's front arc toward you. Most of the best options for dealing with a Spartan are melee ones - meltabombs, chainfists, DCCW. Sicarans and Sicaran Venators can also be useful, the former for rending and the latter for S10 AP1. Lightnings with Kraken missiles. If you're looking for AV14+ killers on the cheap, though, the first three are probably your best bet both point and $-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonite Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, lascannons aren't even all that great at taking down Spartans - a Pride of the Legion list with a big squad of terminators in a spartan + praetor + primus medicae would do a pretty nasty number on this list as well. With Flare Shield, the Lascannons are effectively s8 vs the front arc of the Spartan and can only glance on 6's, and with only one squad you can't create any opportunities for flanking fire with the lascannons. The opponent could always keep their Spartan's front arc toward you. Most of the best options for dealing with a Spartan are melee ones - meltabombs, chainfists, DCCW. Sicarans and Sicaran Venators can also be useful, the former for rending and the latter for S10 AP1. Lightnings with Kraken missiles. If you're looking for AV14+ killers on the cheap, though, the first three are probably your best bet both point and $-wise. This advice is sound. Although you will need a second squad, a small Terminator Squad or a larger one of Veterans is easy to do on the cheap. Besides, you have the likes of Red Butchers (who's champion can take dual Chain Fists), Deathshroud (Melta Bombs), Fire Drakes (can all be armed with Thunder Hammers, which while not a 14 killer, is going to hurt at any size), and so on. I personally plan to use an army, with or without the Spartan, that at the least has a Sicaran or a Land Raider, and all my squads armed with Melta Bombs (although anyone will buy the Armored Ceremite if they can spare the points, so keep an eye out) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drippy Waffler Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 What I'm think after reading all this is that this almost needs to be reduced to 1000 points if this will be a good starting template. 100 point centurion (unsure of what consul) 2 x breachers/assualt - 500 Contemptor - chainfist, grav, kheres - 225 175 points left over. Basilisk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloroutofspace Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Ok, so I'll digress, but I'm in the process of creating a spreadsheet, that calculates point per GBP (or any other currency) spent. I'm halfway through, and so far the winning unit is... Destroyers. It's 68 pounds for a 10-man squad with jump packs, and in terms of points that could give you 405, meaning 6 pts per pound spent :) A FW Recon Squad is a close second. Outside of strictly FW range, a GW Dread gives an even better value.The worst you could do is buing a FW or GW Rhino, or a Javelin Speeder :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Is your spreadsheet going by GW list prices, or does it include the usual 20% online discount for GW plastics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloroutofspace Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 GW website prices, didn't know they were giving a discount, haven't bought a model directly from GW in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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