Necrons and Ghost Arks

[sparti67]

I ran into two ghost arks and a command barge.  I took care of the barge but waisted half my troops against it.  What would be the most affective troops in a scenario involving ghost ark spam?  Also he had a annihilation barge sniping me.

[Prot]

Just pen them. Doesn't matter how... drop pods, melta... just pen them and the Quantum shields are down which makes a world of difference.

 

This Friday it might change though.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Wait for the new codex. Annihilation Barges are going up in price (thank Throne) so he can't just auto-include them anymore. 

 

Against Necrons I'd use Darkfire Castellax against his mech. S7 AP2 Lance with -1 to his cover saves (really helps against Jink) is very strong at causing pen hits, which is how you drop their stupid underpriced AV13 shield. Once that is down, it's a lot easier to cause damage to their normal AV11. 

 

Thanatars vape their infantry just fine. You'll have problems against Wraiths though, they've recieved buffs in the new codex as well (T5...wth). I'd probably take Ursarax to deal with Wraiths, nothing else you have is good in melee. 

[Nehekhare]

stupid underpriced AV13 shield.

 

a predator is 3/5ths the points ;)

[Morticon]

stupid underpriced AV13 shield.

a predator is 3/5ths the points

and has 11 side armour....

[Nehekhare]

stupid underpriced AV13 shield.

a predator is 3/5ths the points

and has 11 side armour....

barge has 11 all around, pred never loses his front armor.

[sparti67]

I have a sicaran I am bringing out.  

[bebe]

This is the squad that :cuss ...

 

TR: Mechanicum Thallax Cohort (6) - 360
-4x Lightning guns, 2x Photon Thrusters, 6x Heavy Chainblade, Destructor

 

It handles anything Necrons can bring.

[Nehekhare]

*brings 360pts of wraiths* ;)

[abraxus]

I was under the impression that "lance" reduces an AV value of over 12 to 12; thus in the case of an ark it would reduce the AV of 11 to 11 and then add 2 for the shield. In other words, no effect.

[Nehekhare]

actually, that is a good question!

 

Lance: "count vehicle Armor Values that are higher than 12 as 12" (set value modifier)

Quantum Shielding: "counts all of its Front and Sider Armour Values as 13" (set value modifier)

[Prot]

I can't remember where but I was told it was counted as AV12 after applying the lance rule. I've always allowed my opponents to use their lances that way.

[Nehekhare]

sounds reasonable, but isn't there a rule to back that up?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Lance would override. It always checks the AV value of the target at the time you shoot it. The stupid shielding boosts them to AV13, but then Lance lowers it back down to 12. Hence, Darkfire cannons still rek Necron vehicles. 

 

I'd really recommend Ursarax. New Wraiths are absurd, you won't kill them with shooting and they tear Thallax to shreds without even trying. Even Castellax don't wanna tangle with them, their low attack output means you'll be Rended to death eventually. Ursarax re-roll to wound due to their lightning claws, and their 5+ FNP means they'll stick around longer. They're also fast enough to intercept an assault, all other Mechanicum stuff is too slow. 

[Nehekhare]

Ok, you're paraphrasing. That doesn't answer the question for rules backup.

 

See, otherwise I could just argue:

 

stupid shielding

 

cannot be ever destroyed because:

 

Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain (Isaac Asimov)

 

;)

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Lance would override. It always checks the AV value of the target at the time you shoot it. The stupid shielding boosts them to AV13, but then Lance lowers it back down to 12. Hence, Darkfire cannons still rek Necron vehicles. 

 

I'd really recommend Ursarax. New Wraiths are absurd, you won't kill them with shooting and they tear Thallax to shreds without even trying. Even Castellax don't wanna tangle with them, their low attack output means you'll be Rended to death eventually. Ursarax re-roll to wound due to their lightning claws, and their 5+ FNP means they'll stick around longer. They're also fast enough to intercept an assault, all other Mechanicum stuff is too slow. 

 

wouldn't taking the powerfist be REALLY worth it against Wraith? Str10 instant kills them once the wound goes through...

4 attacks each on the charge all with str10 is fairly bonkers.

 

Speaking of...does anyone know why you would ever use the volkite incinerator in CC? I can't think of a single thing it would be more useful for.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

wouldn't taking the powerfist be REALLY worth it against Wraith? Str10 instant kills them once the wound goes through...

4 attacks each on the charge all with str10 is fairly bonkers.

 

Assuming they fail their 3+ invul. It's also a 10pt upgrade per Ursarax, who aren't cheap to begin with. Your lightning claws are usually going to be enough, wounding on 4's with re-rolls is pretty reliable, and there is nothing worse than rolling a 1 with a powerfist to wound. 

 

Also, in the new formation with the Spyder and Scarabs, they get Reanimation Protocols for free. So, even if you do insta-gib with the powerfist, they get back up on a 4+. This is after they failed a 3+ invul too :( 

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

mywords

Assuming they fail their 3+ invul. It's also a 10pt upgrade per Ursarax, who aren't cheap to begin with. Your lightning claws are usually going to be enough, wounding on 4's with re-rolls is pretty reliable, and there is nothing worse than rolling a 1 with a powerfist to wound.

Also, in the new formation with the Spyder and Scarabs, they get Reanimation Protocols for free. So, even if you do insta-gib with the powerfist, they get back up on a 4+. This is after they failed a 3+ invul too

Well insta-gib means Minus 1 to those reanimations...and I think in the formation they are 5+ (per normal necron reanimation without a cryptek) so that would force reanimations to a 6.

And yeah statwise they will fail those +3 once every three rolls. with roughly 2 instant death wounds forcing saves on wraiths per usarax, a squad of 3 with power fists should take down 2-3 wraiths pretty reliably the turn they charge right?

Sounds better than causing the same number of the same number of wounds (because even a 4+to wound re-roll 75% is not as good as 2+ without re-rolls 83%)

Well worth the points in my book! But to each their own to their lists!

As far as ghost arks though....ursarax with fists would punch it dead but the best thing is that gnarly Krios battle tanks with the pulsar fusil. (CAN I PLEASE GET THAT GUN ON A KNIGHT!??)

36" on a fast tank? 4 shots of Ordanance? Ap2 against open top so +2? Yeah they will wreck a ghost ark a turn without good cover/jink.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well insta-gib means Minus 1 to those reanimations...and I think in the formation they are 5+ (per normal necron reanimation without a cryptek) so that would force reanimations to a 6.

 

Yeah, forgot about that. Instant Death does apply a -1 penalty. However, you're wrong about the base roll. Decurion grants 4+ Rez rolls by default, you never need Crypteks lol. So, against an Ursarax powerfist, a Wraith has to fail a 3+ invul, and then gets back up on a 5+. Also, if there is an Overlord nearby, he can re-roll the Rez roll if he rolls a 1. ;)

And yeah statwise they will fail those +3 once every three rolls. with roughly 2 instant death wounds forcing saves on wraiths per usarax, a squad of 3 with power fists should take down 2-3 wraiths pretty reliably the turn they charge right?

 

Should do. Remember, 3+ saves don't always fail the way you want them too. Marine syndrome is real. Sometimes you opponent will pass a bunch of 3+ saves in a row no problem. Other times they roll triple 1's lol. 

Sounds better than causing the same number of the same number of wounds (because even a 4+to wound re-roll  75% is not as good as 2+ without re-rolls 83%)

 

Well worth the points in my book! But to each their own to their lists!

 

No I'm actually in agreement. I think powerfists are a very worthwhile investment. Unwieldy doesn't matter, Wraiths will have lash whips to ensure they go at I5 anyway (so they go first regardless). 

As far as ghost arks though....ursarax with fists would punch it dead but the best thing is that gnarly Krios battle tanks with the pulsar fusil. (CAN I PLEASE GET THAT GUN ON A KNIGHT!??)

 

Yeah Ursarax with powerfists will rip any tank to shreds. Pretty good against Necrons too, in that you will fight a lot of AV13/14 stuff. 

 

Krios Venator wouldn't be good dude, because gauss reks tanks. Flare shielding doesn't save you, gauss auto-glances on a 6 to damage :( its like super-Haywire now. 

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Well insta-gib means Minus 1 to those reanimations...and I think in the formation they are 5+ (per normal necron reanimation without a cryptek) so that would force reanimations to a 6.

Yeah, forgot about that. Instant Death does apply a -1 penalty. However, you're wrong about the base roll. Decurion grants 4+ Rez rolls by default, you never need Crypteks lol. So, against an Ursarax powerfist, a Wraith has to fail a 3+ invul, and then gets back up on a 5+. Also, if there is an Overlord nearby, he can re-roll the Rez roll if he rolls a 1.

And yeah statwise they will fail those +3 once every three rolls. with roughly 2 instant death wounds forcing saves on wraiths per usarax, a squad of 3 with power fists should take down 2-3 wraiths pretty reliably the turn they charge right?

Should do. Remember, 3+ saves don't always fail the way you want them too. Marine syndrome is real. Sometimes you opponent will pass a bunch of 3+ saves in a row no problem. Other times they roll triple 1's lol.

Sounds better than causing the same number of the same number of wounds (because even a 4+to wound re-roll 75% is not as good as 2+ without re-rolls 83%)

Well worth the points in my book! But to each their own to their lists!

No I'm actually in agreement. I think powerfists are a very worthwhile investment. Unwieldy doesn't matter, Wraiths will have lash whips to ensure they go at I5 anyway (so they go first regardless).

As far as ghost arks though....ursarax with fists would punch it dead but the best thing is that gnarly Krios battle tanks with the pulsar fusil. (CAN I PLEASE GET THAT GUN ON A KNIGHT!??)

Yeah Ursarax with powerfists will rip any tank to shreds. Pretty good against Necrons too, in that you will fight a lot of AV13/14 stuff.

Krios Venator wouldn't be good dude, because gauss reks tanks. Flare shielding doesn't save you, gauss auto-glances on a 6 to damage its like super-Haywire now.

Eh even with a full ark firing if they are not in rapid fire range I am not nervous. The krios is faster. You will get to shoot first. Likely murdering an Ark and positioning yourself to at least take partial cover from return.

[Prot]

Well insta-gib means Minus 1 to those reanimations...and I think in the formation they are 5+ (per normal necron reanimation without a cryptek) so that would force reanimations to a 6.

Yeah, forgot about that. Instant Death does apply a -1 penalty. However, you're wrong about the base roll. Decurion grants 4+ Rez rolls by default, you never need Crypteks lol. So, against an Ursarax powerfist, a Wraith has to fail a 3+ invul, and then gets back up on a 5+. Also, if there is an Overlord nearby, he can re-roll the Rez roll if he rolls a 1.

Not unless you are using something I'm unaware of the Wraith is not part of the Reclamation Legion and thus will not benefit from the 12" command rule of the Overlord.

Again, I keep repeating this all over the forum there are mini-Necron discussions but my Necrons definitely struggle most against numerous Marine armies that aren't going the 'elite' route.

The more elite in general an army is, the more it plays into Necrons' hands.

Just remember several of the formations have an anchor point that gives the rules. So in the case of the Canoptek Formation (FnP on the Canoptek formation). Remember at the beggining of the turn only units within 12" of the Spyder get those special rules. Most importantly as written, it can only be 1 Spyder in the formation (NOT a squad) and if you just kill the spyder, the formation is essentially broken.

[sparti67]

I play them again this week in my league its 1550 pts. (I get an extra 50 for winning two league matches).   Some great ideas here, I will post my new list for critique before the weekend.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Eh even with a full ark firing if they are not in rapid fire range I am not nervous. The krios is faster. You will get to shoot first. Likely murdering an Ark and positioning yourself to at least take partial cover from return. 

 

Ghost Arks now get a Salvo 20 gauss flayer on both sides. So yeah, I'd worry. Because the Warriors inside can shoot as well. Trust me, Necrons have zero issue removing vehicles. Robots are better, you'll shrug off more damage by being T7/8 and having an armour save. 

Not unless you are using something I'm unaware of the Wraith is not part of the Reclamation Legion and thus will not benefit from the 12" command rule of the Overlord.

 

Ah good catch. Still, 4+ Rez. 

Just remember several of the formations have an anchor point that gives the rules. So in the case of the Canoptek Formation (FnP on the Canoptek formation). Remember at the beggining of the turn only units within 12" of the Spyder get those special rules. Most importantly as written, it can only be 1 Spyder in the formation (NOT a squad) and if you just kill the spyder, the formation is essentially broken.

 

The Canoptek Harvest Formation doesn't grant FNP. it grants Reanimation Protocols (or Shred, or Fleet). Which, due to being in a Decurion, means it's also 4+ Rez rolls. 

 

If you focus on the Spyder, by definition you're not shooting the Wraiths, so effectively the Spyder has done it's job anyway. Also, good luck keeping it dead. T6 3 wounds and 3+ save, with a 4+ Rez roll on top of that. 

[Kristoff]

Lance would override. It always checks the AV value of the target at the time you shoot it. The stupid shielding boosts them to AV13, but then Lance lowers it back down to 12. Hence, Darkfire cannons still rek Necron vehicles.

 

If only that's how Modifiers worked, you would be correct.

 

Ghost Arks now get a Salvo 20 gauss flayer on both sides. So yeah, I'd worry. Because the Warriors inside can shoot as well. Trust me, Necrons have zero issue removing vehicles. Robots are better, you'll shrug off more damage by being T7/8 and having an armour save.

Salvo 10. Unless you are folded around the Ghost Ark to be shot by both sides, they can only generate 10 Hits on a unit at the most. That may have been what you meant, but it sounded like you were saying it was Salvo 20 on each individual side.

 

The Canoptek Harvest Formation doesn't grant FNP. it grants Reanimation Protocols (or Shred, or Fleet). Which, due to being in a Decurion, means it's also 4+ Rez rolls.

Also keep in mind that the RP isn't the only rule that the Spyder can grant, just the one that will be used the most.

[sparti67]

Having a real hard time with the list.  I am trying to take away the glance advantage and being shot by a million warriors from the ghost arks.  So far I have:

 

Magos Prime - Cortex controller, cyber familiar, powerfist, myrmidax, two plasma fusels and a jet pack

 

Magos Dominus - Vanilla

 

Myrmidon Secutors - graviton guns Bunker, escape hatch

 

Thallax Cohort 3 - Plasma fusels heavy chain blades destructor

 

Adseculoris Covenant 20 - right of pure thought

 

4 Castellax - mauler bolt canons, enhanced targeting

 

Thanatar siege enhanced targeting array, paragon of metal.

 

I can't decide if I should worry about air.  If I do I was thinking about adding a quad gun to the bunker or bringing an aegis defense line with a quad gun and an assassin to man it.