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XIth: Wardens of Light - Destined to be forgotten


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#526
Doctor Perils

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Perhaps, but it's certainly a more defensive weapon than a sword

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#527
MikhalLeNoir

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Found a nice article about the weapons origin although I put their origin to indonesian maetial arts like kali etc.

The Tonfa is generally considered as an Okinawan martial arts weapon. However, exactly where the origin of the Tonfa comes from is not certain, but the expert s believe it originated from somewhere within either China or possibly Indonesia.
These Chinese and Southern Asian martial arts both used this form of weapon and it is thought that it was brought to the Japanese island of Okinawa through their initial influences.
The Chinese, however, believe that the Tonfa was a development and also a adaptation of the crutch and were brought about by the restrictions placed on the use of weapons during the reign of the ruler ShoShin in order to to stabilise the country after a long and bitter period of civil wars.
These restrictions brought about the development of some very unconventional weapons developed from various farming and agricultural tools. It is said the Tonfa was the development of a wooden handle from a millstone, which was a common tool at the time.
This is the considered opinion as to the origin of the Tonfa and is probably quite true given the evidence we have today on this weapon.
In modern times the Tonfa itself is considered to be the basis for the PR-24 side handle police baton, which is used by police forces the world over. However, the police combat application is considered different as it is more for crowd control rather than a weapon as such.


The Tonfa has always been traditionally made from red oak wood and always made in pairs for use as a double handed weapon of self defence.
Although primarily used for self defence the Tonfa makes a formidable offensive attacking weapon.


Once mastered this very versatile martial arts weapon lends itself to a series of many different attacking combinations that will render an opponent quite useless with just a single blow.
There is also know to be a similar weapon called the mai sun sawk and is used in krabi krabong, itself an ancient martial art. Without doubt there are similarities between the two weapons and the Mai Sun Sawk could very easily of been the predecessor the Tonfa itself.
Effectively a Tonfa is a stick with a handle, which, over the centuries, has been turned into a formidable martial arts weapon. In my informational websiteTonfa.org you can find out additional information about this martial arts weapon including Tonfatechniques and training methods.
The Tonfa is also know by various other names:
Tonfa
Tonfa sticks
Tonfa baton
Tonfa sword
Tonfa lightsaber


So Sanguinius response is mostly right. I know them also primarily as weapon to counter attacks for self defense.

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#528
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To be fair, I've had more experience of swords used defensively and tonfas offensively than the opposite. But then all my experiences with weapons are pretty nonstandard.



#529
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Found a nice article about the weapons origin although I put their origin to indonesian maetial arts like kali etc.
 

The Tonfa is generally considered as an Okinawan martial arts weapon. However, exactly where the origin of the Tonfa comes from is not certain, but the expert s believe it originated from somewhere within either China or possibly Indonesia.
These Chinese and Southern Asian martial arts both used this form of weapon and it is thought that it was brought to the Japanese island of Okinawa through their initial influences.
The Chinese, however, believe that the Tonfa was a development and also a adaptation of the crutch and were brought about by the restrictions placed on the use of weapons during the reign of the ruler ShoShin in order to to stabilise the country after a long and bitter period of civil wars.
These restrictions brought about the development of some very unconventional weapons developed from various farming and agricultural tools. It is said the Tonfa was the development of a wooden handle from a millstone, which was a common tool at the time.
This is the considered opinion as to the origin of the Tonfa and is probably quite true given the evidence we have today on this weapon.
In modern times the Tonfa itself is considered to be the basis for the PR-24 side handle police baton, which is used by police forces the world over. However, the police combat application is considered different as it is more for crowd control rather than a weapon as such.


The Tonfa has always been traditionally made from red oak wood and always made in pairs for use as a double handed weapon of self defence.
Although primarily used for self defence the Tonfa makes a formidable offensive attacking weapon.


Once mastered this very versatile martial arts weapon lends itself to a series of many different attacking combinations that will render an opponent quite useless with just a single blow.
There is also know to be a similar weapon called the mai sun sawk and is used in krabi krabong, itself an ancient martial art. Without doubt there are similarities between the two weapons and the Mai Sun Sawk could very easily of been the predecessor the Tonfa itself.
Effectively a Tonfa is a stick with a handle, which, over the centuries, has been turned into a formidable martial arts weapon. In my informational websiteTonfa.org you can find out additional information about this martial arts weapon including Tonfatechniques and training methods.
The Tonfa is also know by various other names:
Tonfa
Tonfa sticks
Tonfa baton
Tonfa sword
Tonfa lightsaber
 


So Sanguinius response is mostly right. I know them also primarily as weapon to counter attacks for self defense.

 

That's quite interesting, however, I don't know how that would make them more defensive than a sword? I really don't know that much about asian weapons like that - however, I do know that a lot of them have received hype in western pop cultures from Samurai, Ninja and warrior-monks, that they don't always deserve in full (looking at you, armour-cutting Katana...) I had a quick look at that tonfa.org site and on wikipedia, as well as a hyper-fast-google-fu, but I couldn't find any weapon comparisons (I know that it isn't possible to say one weapon is better than another in all circumstances, but some differences can be made)


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#530
MikhalLeNoir

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Well in indonesian kali the tonfas are used to deflect strikes primarily. If you usually block with ypur arm, then the block is strengthend by the structure of the tonfa. You deflect the blow and then counter ( thanks to the weapon structure you can whirl it around very fast). You have different patterns where you block the blow, twist the stick and attack the swordhand/ weaponhand of your enemy to disarm him. A sword is primarily an attacking weapon. Built to kill. If you aim for the enemy you usually intend to hurt him really bad. Disarming works to, but in my experience ( medieval swordfight it is easier to hurt him badly, and we fight with protection) Although you can use it to defend yourself too it is not primarily created for defensive maneuvers. Ever tried to block a swift strike with a bidenhaender? Not so easy.

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#531
Sigismund229

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Well in indonesian kali the tonfas are used to deflect strikes primarily. If you usually block with ypur arm, then the block is strengthend by the structure of the tonfa. You deflect the blow and then counter ( thanks to the weapon structure you can whirl it around very fast). You have different patterns where you block the blow, twist the stick and attack the swordhand/ weaponhand of your enemy to disarm him. A sword is primarily an attacking weapon. Built to kill. If you aim for the enemy you usually intend to hurt him really bad. Disarming works to, but in my experience ( medieval swordfight it is easier to hurt him badly, and we fight with protection) Although you can use it to defend yourself too it is not primarily created for defensive maneuvers. Ever tried to block a swift strike with a bidenhaender? Not so easy.

Never having tried Asian forms of martial art in any particular depth I wouldn't know how good tonfas are for defence but swords are actually quite well rounded weapons and quite easy to block with. I've never practiced with a bidenhaender/zweihander but I have practiced with a Highland great sword which is a similar sort of weapon and I didn't find it to be too difficult to defend with, even if your only defence was being able to keep your distance. 

 

If you want a weapon that's really only designed for attack try blocking with a Dane axe. 


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#532
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That all might be right but you agree with me that swords are created to attack, right?

Tonfas originated with the defense in mind. We can argue 100 pages in this thread ( maybe we should, would boost the numbers of repkies and i am an attention whore^^)

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#533
Sigismund229

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Actually I'd say swords were designed to be well balanced weapons capable of boh attack and defence.
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#534
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In the hands of a well trained man. A daresay that an intrained man could attack but has problems to attack. While a untrained man with tonfas cpuld better defend due to the natural movement but will have big problems to attack.

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#535
Sigismund229

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In the hands of a well trained man. A daresay that an intrained man could attack but has problems to attack. While a untrained man with tonfas cpuld better defend due to the natural movement but will have big problems to attack.


That's assuming an untrained man would be using a sword. Generally, an untrained man would use a spear or axe while swords were reserved for the "warrior" class, precisely because an untrained man wouldn't use it properly. Although point taken, it's more natural to use a sword to attack msn-wink.gif


Edited by Sigismund229, 10 September 2016 - 07:56 PM.

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#536
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Vae victis!!! ^^

Edited by MikhalLeNoir, 10 September 2016 - 09:15 PM.

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#537
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Aye, I studied eastern martial arts for 15 years before I took up HEMA and Tonfas were super easy to use for defense right away. I actually prefer them to bucklers or defensive daggers.
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#538
Doctor Perils

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*Feth, I hit previous without posting :'( *

 

Don't forget that swords will have more reach than a tonfa (when held by the "cross-piece handle"), and many european and middle-eastern european designs have cross-guards, so when you parry a blow, the opponent's weapon will be further from the body (including hands and arms), and (I suppose) you will have more control over the opponent's weapon (thanks to the crossguard)

 

Aye, I studied eastern martial arts for 15 years before I took up HEMA and Tonfas were super easy to use for defense right away. I actually prefer them to bucklers or defensive daggers.

They may be easier to block blows for a beginner, but would you say they are "better" at defense? (keeping in mind Space Marines aren't beginners)

 

Also, do Tonfas provide any better protection when parrying blows then plate-armour would (not considering power-weapons - I'm interested from a personal culture aspect :) As I said, I really know very little about asian weapons, I pretty much just have some ten year old basics in Judo and Jiu-Jitsu)

 

 

 

Regardless, I may generally prefer designs that are rooted in reality/historical designs (and I don't know quite how historically accurate tonfa-blades are), I do think your tonfa-blades are very cool, both in concept and realisation :)


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#539
MikhalLeNoir

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Well the tonfa blades/ swords exists but you should be really good or else you hurt yourself^^. My designs are more warhammerstyle and i don't think that they would be practical without a power armor^^. But what was more common where the tonfas who had a curved blade or a thorn on the end of the grip. This allowed a more direct "answer"


A normal tonfa is from very hard wood with a smooth surface. Swords from Indonesia were more like machetes or big knivea with one sharp edge. A hack weapon, not to trust. So if the sword hit the smooth surface on an angle it was deflected. And the tonfa-user could whirl the stick around hitten the swordhand or the head. To increase the range you can use the tinfas reversed but that robs you of your balance. Imho morw practical would be to have a pair of tonfas. Ine for defensive matters in the traditional grip and the other in the reverse manner so that you have range and use it more like a club.

A weapon is only a tool. Better or not always depends on the wielder.

A cross guard has its advantages.

Edited by MikhalLeNoir, 11 September 2016 - 08:03 PM.

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#540
Doctor Perils

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A weapon is only a tool. Better or not always depends on the wielder.

A cross guard has its advantages.

Very true.

To me it seems the cross guard has so many advantages that I'm surprised why it don't come into being in other cultures (especially those that didn't use shields much)


Anyway, thanks for the discussion, I'll let you get back to the topic now :)
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#541
MikhalLeNoir

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I can only answer this for the wudang swordstyle. Big motions but the swordforms were mostly aimed to pierce, or deflect the others blade and quickly thrust. So the crossguard was very very small. Don't know about the more bigger chineae swords as I trained only that style in my glorious youth

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#542
MikhalLeNoir

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Hah!!! In my recent correspondence with blunt I realized, that I might have missed ( or it vanished in the general discussio. Thread) the outline what happens to the wardens after the day of revelation^^

So tadaa:
My thought outline:


- After the wardens return to caerbannog they send a diatress call having all wardens fleets return.
- gwal is badly hurt physically and mentally by the quarith drugs and torture travier has done to him. The wardens, whose leader is tgerefore absent argue what to do. There arw the ones like scorpion who want to take action and the ones who want to follow the wishes of their primarch not to fight their brethren. That revenge is bad etc.
- refugee ships arrive on caerbannog and tge wardens try to at least pacify a corridor so that tge ships can travel safely if they reach the corridor. But often those ships are target to raiders lile the jackals but i can see too that imperial troops stop them too to take the men and let them fight in the militia. Well the wardens who often see ghost ships with only dead refugees on board question the ways. -> of those some could become knights errant.
- captain kylan who found one ship too much beeing raided by the jackals gathers his men and hunt down the jackals who were responsible ( about blood crusade time i assume) . he kills them to the last but loses quite alot of men in the attempt. When he returns the circle of wardens ( or the table like in arthurian legend) has to trial over him. An argue between those who want an active role and those who stay neutral occurs over the fate of kylan and his men. It is then that Gwal shows up for the first time in recent years. Still not fully healed ( atm i am argueing with myself if i should give him a few bionic implants)
- he sees that even among his legion a twist has come and makes a salomonian decission. Je sents kylan and his men to tge nightguard. Some of the activist like scorpion join them.
- while on duty at the nightguard they see the whole scale of treachery and when they return they try to convince gwal to take action, but he can't bring himself to fight against his brotgers. Even if they backstabbed him, they are his brothers. It is not his fight.
-scorpiom rallies then about half of the wardens and leave for terra (about 25th year of the insurrection).
- with his men gone, gwal rethinks all. Meditates on the problem etc and comes to a decission, that he can't stay neutral. The war has reached his legion as well even if he don't want to admit it. So he heads with the rest of the wardens for terra, reaching it just in time of the insurrection.
- terra siege
- gwal is depressed over the deaths of his brothers and can't forgive himself because he believes that if he had taken an active role earlier he could have averted tge deaths of alex and tge crippling of tge emperor. So he vanishes to find a cure for the emperor.

Open for Comissions, just PM me. The Wardens of Light were like golden blades, cutting down their enemies scarring the darkness.

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#543
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Wow! Im loving the legion mate! cant wait to see more! by the way who does your artwork and how much does it cost generally?


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#544
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While I echo everyone's praise for Truescale Twin Tonfa Dude, I'm way more interested to know what that big old plastic thingamajig is behind him, my powers of divination say... Land Speeder Illuminator?

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#545
MikhalLeNoir

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While I echo everyone's praise for Truescale Twin Tonfa Dude, I'm way more interested to know what that big old plastic thingamajig is behind him, my powers of divination say... Land Speeder Illuminator?

You Sir, Mr. Max SCHRECK, you are correct. But it is still an early built.and not fit to be shown in full to the public.


And thx for the praise. That makes the dude.veeeeeery happy

Edited by MikhalLeNoir, 08 October 2016 - 07:56 AM.

Open for Comissions, just PM me. The Wardens of Light were like golden blades, cutting down their enemies scarring the darkness.

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#546
MikhalLeNoir

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"In Light there is Dark, and in Dark there is Light"

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Edited by MikhalLeNoir, 09 October 2016 - 09:19 AM.

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Open for Comissions, just PM me. The Wardens of Light were like golden blades, cutting down their enemies scarring the darkness.

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#547
Kelborn

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Took a while but I'm seeing Gwal now ^^

Edited by Kelborn, 09 October 2016 - 11:16 AM.

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#548
MikhalLeNoir

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Lol^^

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#549
AlphariusOmegon108

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"In the end, death comes for us all"

 

13082016_warhammer30kmichaeleisenhart_by

 

Our (Mikhail and myself) commisioned piece of Alexos' last fight with Gwal on Terra itself, this amazing piece was created by the talented Aituarmanas

 

let us know what you think!


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#550
MikhalLeNoir

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And here in high res. Lot of details were cut off in low res


Spoiler

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