Captain Coolpants Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Title says it all! I've never faced then before, but a friend of mine is starting space wolves, I've been ultra mega slowly rebuilding my wolves army (without his knowledge) for a while now, so Im considering selling my thunderwolves to him. But... Before I do that! How would I counter them? Because 2 wounds with a 12" ignoring cover movement, toughness 5, a 3++ and strength 10 in combat is crazy good. So I want to cheat and have an upper hand before I eeeeven give then to him haha. And if you're wondering why I'd rather sell them to him instead of each having a wolf army, is because he's planning on pretty much starting the exact same army as me, so that's just boring, and he probably wouldn't even have considered them if I wasn't keeping it a secret lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Multiple Dreadknights counter-charging him. No point shooting them, and Terminators will get Rended/powerfisted to death. You don't need 'Force' which is good (S10 already ID's them), you just need 'Sanctuary' up to stop their powerfists auto-killing you. At least you go first with DK's, so you can risk them. I'd send at least 2 into the TWC unit, 3-4 if you can manage (that way you seal the deal and they will at best kill 2 DK's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Thaaat doesn't sound like a very cost effective counter haha Plus I only have 2 dreadknights, and that's where I'm staying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 normally the thunderwolves would just die against us. But the hammer sheild really mess things up, especially with 4 attacks each! Tis the reason I was slowly building then up, to then include an overcosted tank of a wolf Lord with enough attacks on the charge to make Khârn blush Which I can imagine him doing too. So I'm lost as how to counter them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I just told you. You need 2x DK's minimum, preferably 3 or 4. Nothing else will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Luck Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Thunderwolves with stormshields fall all the same to massed fire. Gatlings should be fairly effective as they are massed fire with force - although by fairly effective, I mean a 30-shot purgatation squad will kill ~2 a shooting phase. Unfortunately Grey Knights can't really put out massive dakka without allies, thus allied Grav Cents are, as always, a good option too. Kaldor Draigo would also prove potent with str 9 ap 2 insta-death at init 5 - stick him in a squad of something and issue a challenge, which if the SW is playing CoF (and they really should be) they'll have to accept; wipe out whoever they put on deaths row from the (relative) safety of a challenge and possibly catch a few with excess wounds, then wipe out whatever is left. You're probably going to lose the squad you stick him in however unless it is allied hammernators, who with the benefits of hammerhand would be fairly even vs TWC just with less attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?401123-Beating-a-Thunderwolf-Lord-and-Thunderwolf-Cavalry Don't sell them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Thunderwolves with stormshields fall all the same to massed fire. Gatlings should be fairly effective as they are massed fire with force - although by fairly effective, I mean a 30-shot purgatation squad will kill ~2 a shooting phase. Unfortunately Grey Knights can't really put out massive dakka without allies, thus allied Grav Cents are, as always, a good option too. Grav Centurions are actually really bad against TWC. You only wound on 3's (re-rolls but still), and they get a 3+ invul save anyway. Gatling suffer the same issue, you wound on 5's, and rely on failed 3+ armour saves (or 2+ if they can get the Wolf Lord to tank with his runic armour). Honestly, shoot the TWC with every psycannon you have, then multi-assault with Dreadknights. Nothing else you have stands a chance. Even Draigo will die to mass Rending/thunderhammer wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Meh! I could always just try and predict when he's using them and spam fire with my eldar... But that's just unsporting and kinda douchey. Plus this is for my knights! You guys think it'll be worth throwing 10+ falchion welding guys with force and hammerhand? Half will hit, half of that will wound, then half of that again will insta kill. Only like 2/3 wounds... But they'll be 2/3 models. Just seems hopeless without mass dreadknights! Which I don't want lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I'd erased them with Psilencers combo ... 30 Force shoots is a plenty of saves to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Luck Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Grav Centurions are actually really bad against TWC. You only wound on 3's (re-rolls but still), and they get a 3+ invul save anyway. Gatling suffer the same issue, you wound on 5's, and rely on failed 3+ armour saves (or 2+ if they can get the Wolf Lord to tank with his runic armour). Honestly, shoot the TWC with every psycannon you have, then multi-assault with Dreadknights. Nothing else you have stands a chance. Even Draigo will die to mass Rending/thunderhammer wounds. Fair point, but with a bare bones Grav Cent squad that is still ~1-2 dead TWC per shooting phase, which is about as good as most things can manage vs a T5 3++ 2W model. And sure, Draigo will. But he's more durable than a Dreadknight for similar points being hit on 5s vs 4s and saving on 3++ (2++ if you can get a sanctuary on him) vs 4/5++, and just as capable of hurting the TWC back. Just seems hopeless without mass dreadknights! Which I don't want lol. Nothing is hopeless. It is important to remember your enemy is paying 85 pts per model for the suggested loadout, with an additional 200-250ish pts for the HQ. Each of which you can kill with a single unsaved wound from a Force weapon/Dreadknight. So 650-700 pts without any pets or iron priests for a 6 man unit. At that amount of points it screams "focus fire me", and doing so is exactly what'll bring said enemy down or soften it up enough any of your units can at least threaten the unit in melee. As a former SW player gone GKs for fluff reasons, TWC are incredibly dangerous but definitely being over-hyped here. Only the TH/SS loadout suggested really counters GKs, which are basically a hard counter to base-TWC due to army-wide AP3 and Force, and yet they aren't that much more dangerous than base TH/SS terminators who trade T5 3+ for T4 2+, cost almost half as much and thus can take twice the amount giving you twice the number of wounds to chew througha nd +0.5 attacks per model on the charge. And for the pts saved off a TWL said assault terminators would get a landraider, thus are highly likely to make it to CCQ unharmed whereas TWC are weakest vs massed firepower (which land raiders generally shrug off). As such, treat TWC with respect but don't give up against them. You just have to know their strengths and weaknesses. Dreadknights are definitely a good option (as always), but they aren't the only one. Lay into them first with as much shooting as possible then try to get the charge yourself, as they have no over-watch and whilst they'll still counter attack for the extra +1A each you'll want your bonus attacks too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Thaaat doesn't sound like a very cost effective counter haha Plus I only have 2 dreadknights, and that's where I'm staying. Like RD said its the best option. If TWC did have a good counter they wouldn't be the best assault unit in the game. I would still shoot them though, preferably from an angle to dodge his tanking lord/ironpriests/hounds/biker rp's. If hes not running all the support pieces you can get that angle pretty easily. Pour fire into them then assault with sanctuary up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Thanks for all the replies guys! Tis definitely food for thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Iapetus Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 No doubt about it, they are a tough squad to deal with - especially if they are seen in number (6/8/10 man squads). I'm in agreement with the rest of my battle brothers that the DK is the best way to go. But if you're forced to face them down with infantry, hammerhand & force are what I would fall back on. Wound on 3's and instakill. Some other ideas: * preferably you've got a full squad attempting the engagement, not a 5 man squad * you want to try and bleed of a few wounds prior to assault via shooting or cleansing flame * you want to charge them, not be charged (getting the extra attacks in round 1 before they get to strike helps a bunch) * I run a mix of halberds, which means wounding on a 2+ if you get hammerhand off * if you've got a ML2 character that can kick off prescience also this also makes a real difference * IMO draigo is stronger here than previously mentioned as he can't be instakilled. he's also WS6, mastercrafted and is always wounding on 2s regardless of hammerhand. Plus, if you can pull off the charge, he let's you get in, whittle down some wolves and hopefully survive to gate out the next turn and leave a greatly weakened squad for somebody else to contend with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Gatling suffer the same issue, you wound on 5's, and rely on failed 3+ armour saves (or 2+ if they can get the Wolf Lord to tank with his runic armour). Gatling psilencer Dreadknights are close to a hardcounter for Thunderwolves: -The Wolf Lord can actually not tank them, because they will kill him the instant he rolls a 1. (Well, maybe the SW player is crazy/ballsy and does it nonetheless lol) -Stormshields don't matter, you don't ignore their armour in the first place with Ap- -You can get multiple rounds of shooting off if you place yourself between 23" and 24", he'll need a 12 to charge you. (small odds) -You can finish them off in assault, which not many units can, including being able to challenge their Lord (they run I1 weapons quite often) -Yes you kill on average roughly 1 TWC with 1 gatling, but that's actually really good considering the cost and the all of the above. There is also massive potential for when dice go your way and not much loss when they don't. Yeah no, I'd hate to face these guys as a TWC spammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goshawk Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Depends on the configuration of the unit, it's size, and how many of them there are. I know I prefer to run my Berzerker Juggernaut Cavalry- I mean Thunderwolves- as a 5 man with 5 Storm Shields, 4 Wolf Claws and a Thunderhammer. Of course this unit comes in at almost 400 points- and gets outrageously expensive when a Wolf Lord is added. This particular unit eats high strength, low AP shots but dies to massed small arms. Unfortunately Grey Knights have neither of these things. The only means I can think of other than #DreadKnight is either sacrificing a unit (not an attractive option) or hitting them with pychic powers. Unfortunately this will more likely than not be a Warp Charge 3 power with a pretty short range. Bottom line is, something is going to need to be given up- whether it be a unit or a few warp charge points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 You guys think it'll be worth throwing 10+ falchion welding guys with force and hammerhand? Half will hit, half of that will wound, then half of that again will insta kill. Then he passes a bunch of 3+ invul saves, and you cry. Plus, the rest of the SW force can always just shoot the legs off whatever Interceptor unit you send against them. That's why DK's are you best bet, they won't die except to lots of AP2, and you don't need 'Force' in melee (even 'Sanctuary' is optional really). I'd erased them with Psilencers combo ... 30 Force shoots is a plenty of saves to take. Even with 'Prescience' and the miracle of getting them into 24" of TWC without getting shot to death or charged first...on average you kill 2-3 TWC. The survivors charge you and rip you to shreds anyway. Fair point, but with a bare bones Grav Cent squad that is still ~1-2 dead TWC per shooting phase, which is about as good as most things can manage vs a T5 3++ 2W model. And sure, Draigo will. But he's more durable than a Dreadknight for similar points being hit on 5s vs 4s and saving on 3++ (2++ if you can get a sanctuary on him) vs 4/5++, and just as capable of hurting the TWC back. Oh yeah, but Draigo first has to kill the Wolf Lord, then kill the remaining TWC as well. Not easy, and like I said while his Eternal Warrior and 4 wounds means he'll stick around longer, he can still be dragged down with mass AP2 hits. The problem for Grav-Centurions is 1-2 TWC isn't enough to even tip melee in your favour, much less serve as a hard-counter. It's the same problem against Wraiths, you only wound on 3's, and they potentially have 4+ Rez as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 This sounds like it's a real problem for us! Thought it was just me not being tactical enough! So I shall use that tactical thinking outside the game! And not tell him I have them or sell them to him until the last minute! Mwuahahaha #douchery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I will second on volume of fire, although in contradiction to statistics , it has worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Not a massive contradiction. But like Necron Wraiths, they're absurdly good at tanking massed anti-infantry AND low AP shooting. Which is why they're broken. Most units in the game are susceptible to at least one of those types of attacks (if not both, assuming they're chaff or something else weak). In-context (as Allies change things), our best options are to hammer them with all the psycannon we have, plus some gatling psilencer with 'Force', then jam Dreadknights down their throat. It's messy, and still not without risk (good saving rolls could mean the SW still comes out ahead). But any other strategy is doomed to failure. Regarding Allies, anything that can bring masses of S5-7 shooting is ideal. Heavy bolters, autocannons, multi-laser...it's why AM are one of our strongest Ally options. They bring oodles of firepower, which is exactly what we lack. I'm currently testing out 30k Mechanicum (our League is allowing 30k to be used). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 You guys think it'll be worth throwing 10+ falchion welding guys with force and hammerhand? Half will hit, half of that will wound, then half of that again will insta kill. Then he passes a bunch of 3+ invul saves, and you cry. Plus, the rest of the SW force can always just shoot the legs off whatever Interceptor unit you send against them. That's why DK's are you best bet, they won't die except to lots of AP2, and you don't need 'Force' in melee (even 'Sanctuary' is optional really). I'd erased them with Psilencers combo ... 30 Force shoots is a plenty of saves to take. Even with 'Prescience' and the miracle of getting them into 24" of TWC without getting shot to death or charged first...on average you kill 2-3 TWC. The survivors charge you and rip you to shreds anyway. We are talking of a unit of 150pts plus a brother captain that should survive. (you can even do some damage without the brother captain) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I think we have still other options to DK's however they might be very situational due to TWC 12" move etc. Slow but sure answer to TWC (getting delivery system might be an option): Stern(or betting on libby roling Sanctuary) + TH/SS-nators. This combo its like you dont care about rends with 2+/2++ thus lock them in CC; for long enough to smash them with hammer-handed S10 hammers (don't have my codex at work, but I think its caster + unit) PS. Preferably you should take BA 4TH/SS+1 LC termies, taken from Baal Strike Force, makes them +1S+1I, in addition to hammerhand, you might be looking at S7,I5 LC that might force few puppies to roll the 3++ before they can even strike back. PS2. Not to mention BA priest (HQ Tax) can give our palies (w.ever) FNP much better than our Aphotecary, because of the +1 WS ~ BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Stern(or betting on libby roling Sanctuary) + TH/SS-nators. This combo its like you dont care about rends with 2+/2++ thus lock them in CC; for long enough to smash them with hammer-handed S10 hammers (don't have my codex at work, but I think its caster + unit) Nah, Draigo+Stormhammers is better. He can 'Gate' them into position faster, and you don't need 'Sanctuary' (a 3+ invul is fine). Yes, 'Hammerhand' will put them at S10 (and Draigo at S9, due to his Titansword). PS. Preferably you should take BA 4TH/SS+1 LC termies, taken from Baal Strike Force, makes them +1S+1I, in addition to hammerhand, you might be looking at S7,I5 LC that might force few puppies to roll the 3++ before they can even strike back. Nah. You won't do enough wounds, also they're T5 and 2 wounds each, they'll outlast you. You need instant-death wounds and as many as possible. That's why Stormhammers with Draigo is better (and why DK's are better as a pure answer). PS2. Not to mention BA priest (HQ Tax) can give our palies (w.ever) FNP much better than our Aphotecary, because of the +1 WS The Narthecium is nice, but it's not essential. Draigo would appreciate it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Yeah any form of feel no pain would be useless unless you take draigo. Strength 10 hammers will just insta wreak you. But something that's really stopping me from using dreadknights are the massed attacks with concussive.. Yeah if I'm lucky, the first round I might survive, but the second round I'll 100% be striking at initiative 1. And that could very well be the difference from killing the squad or killing enough to render them semi useless. Now that I've stepped back and thought about these thunderwolfs as an enemy instead of an ally. It's glaringly clear that they're waaaay over the top. Yeah you pay a premium for the hammer/shield combo,but they're way worse than wraiths by a long shot. They wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have 4 attacks each standard! That's as much as a chapter master or a grand master or equivalent. They're only 6pts more than a paladin with a psycannon and falchions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I've been saying that from the start. Wraiths are TWC-lite. That said I don't consider them ott. They are dedicated solely to assault (no ranged presence) and cost quite a bit when equipped correctly (all shields + some hammers min). There are scarier things around, our draigo-centurions being one but heck even orks can throw down some balls out serious assaults. If you've ever had your entire army wiped away by a tide of boyz and klaws you know what I'm talking about. Anyway if your dipping into allies then it really doesn't get better than invisible gating cents as far as counters go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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