What's Really Behind a Chapter?

[Julgolax]

I've had dozens, if not more, ideas about my own homegrown custom chapters AND warbands but I've never realized them because the idea always fell apart. The main reason behind that is my lack of cash to actually buy and paint some miniatures but also because I've never really felt at peace with my ideas. This has really shown through with my other faction forces in the past as well, such as my old Tau cadre, Eldar strikeforce, and Tyranid swarm, so this has been an ongoing issue for me.

 

For me to feel confident about my idea enough to purchase miniatures, I've always stood by the premise that I should be sure of my starting point before I commit, and when I commit I should develop further. The thing is, I've always gotten cold feet right at the last minute or even earlier. With Space Marine Chapters specifically, I'm not sure how far to take my background INTO the lore of a traditional space marine chapter such as the Ultramarines and their successors, nor even a less traditional chapter like the Space Wolves, Iron Hands, White Scars, and their respective successors.

 

One idea that I was particularly thrilled about some time ago was my idea for a Salamanders successor, the Ashbringers. This chapter was my take on sons of Vulkan and I even had a decent outline of their background. The thing is, the feedback I received for the idea basically led me to feel like they were too much like the Salamanders and the Fire Lords whom I sort of based them on. That idea was scrapped. Then I tried to think of something more exotic and i came up with an idea inspired from the Silver Skulls and Blood Ravens, with a chapter I fond in the Lexicanum wiki called the Crimson Shades. I wanted to play on the idea that Librarians could be revered by the chapter as prophets of the Emperor and leaders of the chapter as a whole. So the entire chapter is secretive, monastic, and forboding with a well hidden homeworld with an unnaturally high turnout of psychics.

 

The thing is, I scrapped that idea after some thought because it didn't jive with the lore whatsoever. A chapter with a high turnout of psychics would simply be impossible to hide and the Inquisition would have something to say about it, at the end of a flamethrower. So here I am, thinking of another idea, and then another, but I'm going to ask the question now. What's really behind a Chapter?

 

I know how chapters can recruit, I have a vague idea of how they are created in the first place, and I have read much of what's stored on Lexicanum about space marines but my question refers to the clockwork of a chapter's planetside and starside life. What happens on a chapter's homeworld exactly? If they're a fleet-based chapter, what do their recruiting worlds function like when their sky gods or what have you aren't around chuckling at us mortals? What does the chapter do in times between campaigns? There has to be times of peace on a space marine homeworld or recruiting worlds after all.

 

Basically, can you tell me what the soul of a chapter is, like what makes up such fantastic lore for chapters like the Mortifactors, Flesh Tearers, and Black Templars as the second founding, third founding, and so on? How do they eventually separate and grow from their parent chapters after their conception by the Explorator fleet?

 

Edit: Also as a side note, I'd like for someone to tell me if my idea for the Crimson Shades is in fact too out there or if there's a way I could make it work.

[Commissar Molotov]

Whilst the Liber is a place where people come for help and advice, it seems to me that you place too much emphasis on the opinions of others. It's important to ensure that your Chapter meshes well with the established 40k background, but you shouldn't let other people force you to abandon ideas, particularly if you still cherish them as it seems you do with your Ashbringers. 

 

There are Chapters known to recruit from populations with high proportions of psykers - the Blood Ravens, Silver Skulls and Relictors were all labelled as doing so. In this thread Brother Tyler suggests an interesting idea based around the use of Grey Knights squads to represent squads of Librarians, a battle-conclave of sort. 

 

Is such a Chapter going to raise the interest of the Inquisition? Possibly. Potentially. But so what? That's the sort of thing that makes a Chapter interesting - how it interacts with the wider Imperium. Your Chapter might just as easily gain allies amongst the Inquisition, such as the Thorians who could easily make the suggestion that your Chapter's ascendant warrior-psykers are true embodiments of the power of the Emperor. 

 

It really depends how you flesh out your Chapter - a psyker-heavy Chapter could be anywhere from the holiest of holy ascendant warriors to secretive and twisted wretches. They might be the glorious lords of a prosperous sector, or a rag-tag collection of renegades hiding from the Imperium as a whole. The Imperium, and the 40k setting, are rich and robust enough to accomodate all those ideas and more. 

 

Find the core of a concept that really appeals to you, and run with it.

 

 

 

I know how chapters can recruit, I have a vague idea of how they are created in the first place, and I have read much of what's stored on Lexicanum about space marines but my question refers to the clockwork of a chapter's planetside and starside life. What happens on a chapter's homeworld exactly? If they're a fleet-based chapter, what do their recruiting worlds function like when their sky gods or what have you aren't around chuckling at us mortals? What does the chapter do in times between campaigns? There has to be times of peace on a space marine homeworld or recruiting worlds after all.

 

Basically, can you tell me what the soul of a chapter is, like what makes up such fantastic lore for chapters like the Mortifactors, Flesh Tearers, and Black Templars as the second founding, third founding, and so on? How do they eventually separate and grow from their parent chapters after their conception by the Explorator fleet?

 

 

It's difficult to give you a concrete one-size-fits-all answer here, because there isn't one. In many cases, Space Marine Chapters become the ultimate overlords of their homeworlds, and as such the planet is free from many of the restrictions placed upon it by the Imperium (such as the tithe, or even the requirement to worship in an Ecclesiarchally-sanctioned manner.) It would depend on the manner of the world your Marines recruit from as to what their daily lives would be like. Your Chapter may be distant and uncaring lords, taking recruits and refusing to aid their subjects - or even forcing them to remain in a state of perpetual war in order to strengthen them. On the other hand, your Chapter may have a close and guiding hand, believing it is their duty to act as stewards and guardians. 

 

Equally, your Chapter may remain locked in prayer, penance and meditation, endless combat drills, ritualised hunts... 

 

If you think of the classic ndex Astartes format, perhaps the most unique and important section would be "Beliefs" - who are the warriors of your Chapter, what do they care about, and why do they do the things they do? These are questions that would have knock-on implications on the rest of your background. 

 

As I said earlier, coming up with the key core concepts of your Chapter is an important way of deciding where to go. That way, if things aren't working out, or you get lost or confused, you can come back to those three or four key words, and strip things away as necessary. My Castigators, for example, could perhaps be expressed as "Purity in All Things." What are the implications of that? What does it mean to live in the grim darkness of the far future with those as your key words? 

[Grand Master Belial]

As a follow on, I am currently running a competition about creating your own Dark Angels Successor (links in signature).

 

I look at several things when making a new chapter: style of combat, the world or ships they are from and its culture, how close to the parent or how much they deviate from them and so on.

 

Here is a synopsis of a few

Saints of the Angels - Unforgiven in bright white armor that embraces the Inquisition in an effort to throw them off from questioning the Unforgiven as a whole. As such they managed to get a few Inquisitors to keep an eye on the Inquisition and how many are on to the secret shame.

 

Raptors of Caliban - a quick reaction force that blends in White Scar elements in that the chapter is fully mounted in vehicles.

 

Questing Brothers - A chapter recruited from convicts on an artisan world, even so far as to use convict orange as their armor color. Using the monastic nature of the Unforgiven, they turn their convict ways into serving the imperium as warriors. They do not know of the Fallen because of their own personal shame.

 

I would agree that confidence seems an issue. But once that is overcome, there are several forums that would be glad to help you flesh out some DIY chapters and could offer some suggestions and constructive criticisms to make it better, but the rule will always stand. It is your chapter, you make the final decision.

[paulJam]

For me to feel confident about my idea enough to purchase miniatures,
it seems to me that plenty of chapters presented here are theoretical only. why get hung up on the models?
 
I've always stood by the premise that I should be sure of my starting point before I commit, and when I commit I should develop further. The thing is, I've always gotten cold feet right at the  last minute or even earlier.
it may take several drafts to get get something you're comfortable with. if you get stuck leave it and come back to it later. even if you scrap the whole idea it may inspire better ideas. conversely you may write something now that you think is swill in a week.
 
The thing is, I scrapped that idea after some thought because it didn't jive with the lore whatsoever. A chapter with a high turnout of psychics would simply be impossible to hide and the
Inquisition would have something to say about it, at the end of a flamethrower.
from another perspective that just adds character and plot twists.
working out how the story comes together is part of the challenge.
in my thinking (only) the story probably should have some ties to in-universe physics (otherwise just write general some fiction), but when developing the story is as important to...
a ) have fun writing your fluff (make it challenging by throwing yourself curve balls),
b ) make sure your fluff carries internal logic (if you can justify the existence of a librarian/psycher chapter then haven't you succeeded? someone did it for GKnights)
 
the people writing 'official' fluff are probably going to be coping flack for their interpretation as well. don't get hung up on other people's opinions. they are just opinion. this is fiction, and it's yours to do what you want with it.
 
I know how chapters can recruit, I have a vague idea of how they are created in the first place, and I have read much of what's stored on Lexicanum about space marines but my
question refers to the clockwork of a chapter's planetside and starside life.
what do you want your chapter to do?
 
What happens on a chapter's homeworld exactly?
what do you want to happen on their homeworld?
i hear they train a lot. how they train might depend on the homeworld itself...
"Daily rituals of a Space Marine'      (link to other site was removed by editor... l e x i c a n u m)
(representing someone elses version)
 
Basically, can you tell me what the soul of a chapter is, like what makes up such fantastic lore for chapters like the Mortifactors, Flesh Tearers, and Black Templars as the second
founding, third founding, and so on? How do they eventually separate and grow from their parent chapters after their conception by the Explorator fleet?
the official fluff writers are are telling their story and it is gels with (some) people. their interpretation isn't necessarily more valid than yours. it's just 'as sanctioned by' gw or whomever.
back your story, even if everyone hates it.
 
Edit: Also as a side note, I'd like for someone to tell me if my idea for the Crimson Shades is in fact too out there or if there's a way I could make it work.
can you tell the story to make it work?
if not try adjusting your parameters (start/origins, ending, characters, events, planet type, enemy faced, timespan), maybe you'll think of something different but as compelling.
 
i started my chapter as a black templar force, models and all.
i then thought 'wouldn't it be cool to get the dark vengeance box. i like that small rule book'.
i then discovered i had a librarian that didn't fit with the templars but still wanted to use him.
which is why i'm writing a DIY based around the above points.
maybe my story works, maybe it doesn't. that's the challenge and it's fun for me, if no one else likes it too bad.
work the story.
 
opinion only... may be wrong

 

 

[edit] seeing the stories, chapter ideas etc presented by everyone else has provided me with entertainment and inspiration. though our efforts might not be rare shiny gems if no one presents their ideas it would be a pretty slim topic.

[Ace Debonair]

Basically, can you tell me what the soul of a chapter is, like what makes up such fantastic lore for chapters like the Mortifactors, Flesh Tearers, and Black Templars as the second founding, third founding, and so on? How do they eventually separate and grow from their parent chapters after their conception by the Explorator fleet?

Well, I couldn't possibly guess how the folks at GW come up with their Chapters, but nearly all of mine have started with the same question.

"What if you had Space Marines who [iNSERT IDEA HERE]? How could that work? What would that change?"

So my Infinity Knights in their current form came about mostly because I asked "What if you had Space Marines who shun bionics completely and use organic replacement limbs? How could that work? What would that change?" The Stonebound were largely the result of me asking "What if you had Space Marines who were based on Dwarves instead of a real-world culture? How could that work? What would that change?" and the Aetheric Swords came from the question "What if you had Space Marines who use their voices as a weapon? How could that work? What would that change?"

Of course, expanding on those questions takes a lot of work. Some even more so than others - I still haven't finished the Stonebound, for example.

The other approach I've used is with the Chapter I actually paint, the White Hawks.

With them I just went ahead and painted some stuff I thought looked cool, and left the history and backstory for later.

When the time came to write about them I pretty much just bolted together traits from everything I like (quite a long list) and said it all comes from the homeworld.

Of course, the challenge then is coming with a homeworld that supplies all the desired traits, but nobody ever said it was an effortless process!

And yes, the Crimson Shades could work just fine.

Chapters with more than the usual number of psykers aren't unheard of, after all.

Nor are Chapters who really value their Librarians - Octavulg's Bronze Prophets are a very good example, and the Aetheric Swords are a much, much worse one.

Just ask yourself: "What if you had Space Marines who actively venerated their Librarians and put them in positions of power? How could that work? What would that change?" And see what answers come to you.

[Julgolax]

Well, I would like to take another look at my Salamanders chapter successor. I was quite enthusiastic about that one because I think Space Marines and heat weapons are a match made in perfection. The 2 problems I had with it before is the visual theme and the name. I thought a name having to do with "ash" would be a good idea because of the undertones of fire and victory, but I got a lot of questions and some negative feedback which killed the vibe. I mean really, how many ways can you spin the "fire" theme before it gets burned out? The same with the color scheme. I had a fiery orange and charcoal black scheme in mind which I really liked, but it wasn't exactly unique or appealing.

 

When I see chapters like the Flesh Tearers, Iron Snakes, Salamanders, and Black Templars, I see unique names and color schemes that one can immediately identify and understand. Flesh Tearers, a gore-soaked assault strike force colored in gory red and sinister black. The Iron Snakes, a gleaming silver and shining white Grecian-style assault force. The Salamanders, a draconian, pyro-fanatical force colored in firedrake green and charred black. The Black Templars, a medieval crusading knight chapter, about as badass as they come.

 

There are a lot of choices out there for one to mull over, but add to that the opportunity to make my own chapter? Ugh, the frustration, the creativity, the painful joy of it all!

 

I feel like an artist with no fingers when it comes to my ideas. :(

[Olis]

I think that the appeal of a DIY Chapter lies in the choices you make to shape it, rather than any super-unique aspect. It sounds like your Ashbringers would share a lot in common with my Conflagrators. The main colour is the same, the focus on heat weaponry is the same and the gene-seed is the same. But do they share the same theme or character? Probably not. With my Chapter, I deliberately went with a theme leagues away from being subtle. All I wanted was something that had a strong character to it and damn the consequences. From that starting point the Chapter has somewhat been refined but still has a way to go before it can be considered finished. 

 

My advice would be to go for ideas that fit what you want whether they are obvious takes on something or not. The refinement can come later. Put in what you like, leave what you don't. You say you think Space Marines and heat weaponry are a perfect match. Maybe you could make this an opinion of the Chapter. It provides immediate character and it's something you can build off of with relative ease. 

 

Just don't be afraid of being unoriginal. Keep refining what you have and it'll become it's own thing, no matter how derivative the first iteration felt. That is where it'll begin to feel unique. All those little elements that have been tweaked or had a knock-on effect to the overall character and outlook will separate them from the crowd. Take baby-steps and they'll soon add up to big strides. ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

Creating a chapter isn't easy. Often, when I start helping people, I try to get them to ditch 90% of their concept, and strip it back to its barest bones. People often get ridiculously attached to little things, and the process of creating a chapter can be painful, or awkward. But so can any creative process. The hoary old veterans of the Liber have dozens of Chapters (or half-formed approximations of Chapters) lying around. But the joy of the (often very organic) process of creating a Chapter and seeing something start to come to life is very rewarding. 

 

I mean really, how many ways can you spin the "fire" theme before it gets burned out?

 

Part of the issue here, as I said before, is in the feedback you've received. Yours may be the eight hundredth Chapter I've seen of super-secret forbidden Second Legion female Space Marine gene-seed. I might be jaded and bitter because of that. But it's also your first (and, possibly, only) Chapter. That's sometimes why it's important to take the internet's advice with a pinch of salt. If you want Marines that use a lot of flame weapons, go for it. It's down to you. 

 

But the archetypes you're talking about are multi-faceted. I've mentioned before that the Blood Angels successors tend to exaggerate and explore specific aspects of Sanguinius's personality. That's part of what stops you from saying that all Blood Angels successors are the same. Similarly, Space Marine DIYs tend to explore specific parts of the Space Marine archetype. That might be Space Marines as warrior-monks, Space Marines are heroic knights, Space Marines as brutal and efficient killers. 

 

Similarly, flame weapons (and the idea of flame itself) can be explored in many ways.

 

Is fire...

• A way of destroying the enemy and scattering his ashes to the wind?
• Or a way of purifying the unholy?
• The only true way to cleanse the sins of the enemy?  
• The heat of a star?
• The breath of a Warrior-God that can never be sated?

 

Are your Space Marines...

• Meditative warriors who - like a brief and guttering candle - attempt to hold out against the darkness?
• Zealous worshippers of the Ecclesiarchy, burning the unclean? 
• Horrifically scarred due to rites of flame that show dedication, nerve-endings long since seared away? 
• Bringing the purifying light of the Emperor to the Imperium? 

 

Could the fire... 

• Represent the fire inside a stout warrior's heart? 
• Represent the vengeance of the Imperium, scouring all trace of its foes? 
• Represent the dedication of the Astartes?

 

Do your warriors...

• Meditate quietly before a flame?
• Stoke huge pyres upon which their enemies are thrown? 
• Carry a small lantern about their person? 
• Launch horrific artillery strikes in which incendiaries burn away the enemy's cover, before stalking through the smouldering ruins? 
• Reach into the flames during arcane rites to prove their loyaty?
• Brand themselves?
• Breathe fire?

 

 

All of that comes before the fact that you consider your Chapter potentially draws lineage from the Salamanders - you have the concepts of Vulkan and the Promethean Cult to bear in mind. Does your Chapter similarly operate as craftsmen? Fire is the secret to forging and reforging anew the Astartes. Is your Chapter similarly "humane" and "humanitarian" like the Salamanders are considered to be? 

 

Plenty for you to think about...

[paulJam]

When I see chapters like the Flesh Tearers, Iron Snakes, Salamanders, and Black Templars, I see unique names and color schemes that one can immediately identify and understand

imperial fists... yellow

salamanders... green

ultramarines... blue... they weren't even trying on that name... they just looked at the paint pot label.

 

it's the stories that build the coolness.

[Grand Master Belial]

I am honestly curious to see what the paint scheme for the Ashbringers you had in mind. Perhaps use the SM Painter to show us what you had in mind.

 

Let me use my template for the Brotherhood of the Angels campaign and see what we have so far...

 

ASHBRINGERS

 

▪ GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR):- Salamanders
▪ FOUNDING:- ???
▪ CHAPTER MASTER:- ???
▪ CHAPTER WORLD:-  ???
▪ FORTRESS MONASTERY:- ???
▪ MAIN COLOURS:- Fiery Orange and Charcoal Black
▪ SPECIALITY:- Heat Weapons
▪ BATTLE CRY:- ???
▪ CURRENT STRENGTH:- ???
▪ KNOWN DESCENDANTS:- ???
 
Origins: Include Founding if it is known; What made that Chapter come into being; Are they a Successor of a Successor?
 
Chapter Home World: Description of the home world along with an image, if possible
 
Present Activities: Narrative about the Chapter at the dawn of the 41st Millennium
 
Battle Honors: Short descriptions of famous battles and outcomes in chapter history
 
Chapter Organization: The way the chapter is made up, where they differ from Codex Astartes? 
 
Fleet Assets: Description of the chapters fleet strength, vessel names and any significant fleet action based conflicts.
 
Recruitment: How neophytes are recruited.
 
Chapter Colors: Livery/color schemes (Include Space Marine Painter images)
 
Battle Standards or Chapter Banners (Optional):
 
Battle Honors/relics/decorations/awards: Description of specific awards, honorariums and honors.
 
Combat Doctrine: How they fight. Armor Heavy? Specializations? Intolerances?
 
Battle Cry: "Poke 'em in the eye!" or "All is ash before us!"
 
Home World or Home Fleet (if Fleet based)
 
Local rituals: Any rituals in their home world/base.
 
Beliefs: Unique beliefs and practices.
 
Gene-Seed: Description of origin and current status
 
Champions of the Chapter: Special characters (As many as you wish)

 

Plenty of room to develop a chapter according to an Index Astartes template. While I require a lot in my DA-based competition, you don't need to fill out everything and heck it can be a simple guide to ponder in the future. Perhaps you play some games and one of your models just takes everything and keeps on kicking. Write a short story about him and that game and you have some history and a Champion of the Chapter.

 

Even filing out a line with a simple note may be all you need to start the process to refine further. The Ashbringers sounds like a chapter that can be brought to fruition and sounds like a good chapter to model, paint and call your own. I would encourage you to write more about it and use Molotov's ideas about Fire to think how it can mould your chapter into something unique and yours. Even if it shares a few similarities with other chapters. 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

I've had dozens, if not more, ideas about my own homegrown custom chapters AND warbands but I've never realized them because the idea always fell apart. The main reason behind that is my lack of cash to actually buy and paint some miniatures but also because I've never really felt at peace with my ideas. This has really shown through with my other faction forces in the past as well, such as my old Tau cadre, Eldar strikeforce, and Tyranid swarm, so this has been an ongoing issue for me.

I felt that way too I have tried a few different ideas, from Chaos Warbands to Tau.

My advice? Space Marine Chapter? Start with a founding, as a Veteran Ultramarines player I fancied something different so I went Dark Angels soon after I started the Blades of Altena (as they were at the time) I wanted something different so I painted them Red, my biggest issue was not the money side but my skills as a Modeller and Painter. My GS skills suck ass

For me to feel confident about my idea enough to purchase miniatures, I've always stood by the premise that I should be sure of my starting point before I commit, and when I commit I should develop further. The thing is, I've always gotten cold feet right at the last minute or even earlier. With Space Marine Chapters specifically, I'm not sure how far to take my background INTO the lore of a traditional space marine chapter such as the Ultramarines and their successors, nor even a less traditional chapter like the Space Wolves, Iron Hands, White Scars, and their respective successors.

Take the background as far as you can It starts with one line of fluff thats how the BoA started, now its over 18 pages of Origin, Recruitment, Ancient Heroes etc.

The great thing about DIY is its your playground, you could make them anything you want. There is nothing stopping you. my wall is modelling stuff like Chapter symbols so I usually take an established one I can buy pads for.

One idea that I was particularly thrilled about some time ago was my idea for a Salamanders successor, the Ashbringers. This chapter was my take on sons of Vulkan and I even had a decent outline of their background. The thing is, the feedback I received for the idea basically led me to feel like they were too much like the Salamanders and the Fire Lords whom I sort of based them on. That idea was scrapped. Then I tried to think of something more exotic and i came up with an idea inspired from the Silver Skulls and Blood Ravens, with a chapter I fond in the Lexicanum wiki called the Crimson Shades. I wanted to play on the idea that Librarians could be revered by the chapter as prophets of the Emperor and leaders of the chapter as a whole. So the entire chapter is secretive, monastic, and forboding with a well hidden homeworld with an unnaturally high turnout of psychics.

I fell into that trap too, my Chapter are part of the Unforgiven and hunt Fallen, Have Deathwing and Ravenwing equivalents. But then I started to pose restrictions at first like denying Death & Ravenwing Knights. Trying to make your lore more unique is one of the harder things to do as you can be sure for the most part its been done before. The only thing you can do is add ideas, asking for help etc. I have asked GMB for advice in the past and he never fails to deliver.

I like the idea of the Crimson Shades.

The thing is, I scrapped that idea after some thought because it didn't jive with the lore whatsoever. A chapter with a high turnout of psychics would simply be impossible to hide and the Inquisition would have something to say about it, at the end of a flamethrower. So here I am, thinking of another idea, and then another, but I'm going to ask the question now. What's really behind a Chapter?

I know how chapters can recruit, I have a vague idea of how they are created in the first place, and I have read much of what's stored on Lexicanum about space marines but my question refers to the clockwork of a chapter's planetside and starside life. What happens on a chapter's homeworld exactly? If they're a fleet-based chapter, what do their recruiting worlds function like when their sky gods or what have you aren't around chuckling at us mortals? What does the chapter do in times between campaigns? There has to be times of peace on a space marine homeworld or recruiting worlds after all.

Well I will try my best to give my opinion ...

What happens on a Homeworld?

Well thats pretty subjective depends what do you want them to do? Salamanders iirc mingle with their people, Space Wolves keep more of a distance, mine only interact when needed although I might develope it more. If civilized would the Father of a son picked to became an Angel of Death feel honoured his son was chosen? We know this to be true for the Ultramarines.

Fleet Based?

Well I think its more common for Chapters to recruit from Primitive/Death Worlds it breeds survivors so perfect cantidates, this is not to say a more civilised world cant produce good Marines. I had one idea i used for a Chapter I called Sons of Thanatos, they recruit from a Primative World that worships death and as such the culture slowly took over the Chapter till they are a Death Cult so to speak.

Down Time?

From what I recall a Space Marine does not get much downtime but again this would vary to the people they recruit from more spiritual Chapters might have more solitude to pray etc.

Most Space Marine homeworlds will be at peace majority of the time with a few exceptions which you probably know ie Fenris, Macragge & Rynns World there is nothing to say your homeworld cant be peaceful.

Basically, can you tell me what the soul of a chapter is, like what makes up such fantastic lore for chapters like the Mortifactors, Flesh Tearers, and Black Templars as the second founding, third founding, and so on? How do they eventually separate and grow from their parent chapters after their conception by the Explorator fleet?

Edit: Also as a side note, I'd like for someone to tell me if my idea for the Crimson Shades is in fact too out there or if there's a way I could make it work.

OK for me that was maybe the easy part . I like germanic culture, Teutonic Orders etc, I had originally tried to write the Blades as Ancient Irish taking on some of the Legends in the form of myths etc. But I felt I sold my self out by not going Germanic because the Black Templar are prefer close to the Teutonic Knights and Germanic Names, but I thought to myself I can make them more, yes my names are Germanic but I feel I have went the opposite direction to Black Templars.

Soul of the Chapter? I am not sure when i found the Soul, I just knew I had a good idea and ran with it, I have rewritten so much for the Brotherhood of Angels 2015 compared to the last time.

Start with an origin, is there a culture in our history you really like that you could start with as a nucleus? Its how all the Chapters I have wrote have started

I hope I have helped in some way if not I'll report to cell 42

Regarding the Crimson Shades. I like the idea you can go with the idea they have a high number of Librarians, which could lead to cursed founding in turn Thousand Sons Geneseed or even Blood Ravens but you could also what to avoid all that in total :)

[Julgolax]

I'm working on a new idea presently. I'll show you what I've got in due time. This idea's REALLY exciting!

[Grand Master Belial]

Good! Keep running with it!

[Julgolax]

Why do some chapters get away with using visually similar iconography and color schemes? Hawk Lords and their yellow Raven Guard icon, Novamarines, Aurora Chapter, and a few others with the 12 pointed star icon. And lets not forget how many predominantly red colored chapters and warbands out there.

 

Myself, I'm concerned the chapter I'm working on and it's many iterations and themes I've been mulling over, might come out looking too much like another chapter. I've always been a fan of certain colors and paint patterns on armor. One of my favorite chapters, in both theme and appearance, is the Flesh Tearers. Like the Black Templars (another favorite of mine) and many other chapters, the Flesh Tearers are all about the shock assault and bloody efficiency of melee but they also do it in style. The unique iconography of the Flesh Tearers has really left an image of uniqueness in my mind. And of course, look no further than the Space Wolves for uniqueness. Who'd have thought that Shadow Grey/Space Wolves Grey and Bad Moon Yellow / Golden Yellow would ever look so great together? And they take "viking" and "wolf" to a new degree, sometimes overboard, in the grimdark!

 

It's interesting to see what has come from the minds of GW's original developers over the years!

[Grand Master Belial]

The answer to your first question is that it is easy to reuse symbols for other chapters if they are for simple development. The Raptors and Mentors I believe have the same symbol but in different colors along with different colored armor. Yet they are rarely discussed as chapters. Same for the Red Templars and the Black Templars. Only the Black Templars got fleshed out, but the Red Templars have hardly a mention in the Space Marine Codex except that they were from the Ultramarines Second Founding. 

 

In my sig was my simple efforts to bulk out the DA KNOWN successors to give them some individual character and it has helped a few to expand their armies to include them and have a little more to work with. But getting back to your first question, is it really that big of a deal? If you would want a truly unique army, then break out some green stuff and model on something that would give them the individualization like the Space Wolves. You can borrow a paint scheme and switch the colors around to be something unique. Take a chapter badge and add a simple variation (color, direction, new object) to make it a new one (You can look to medieval history and all the banners of that era to see that so many banners were variations of another). I was just reading a story about the Swastika and how it was much more widely used and that it implied good fortune. It was tipped 45 degrees and now it is a symbol of past terror and anger. 

 

Someone from GW righted the Omega symbol (Ultramarines) to make his Sons of Orar with a simple color change to red and white if I recall. I guess, until we see more of your designs and ideas for your chapter. We can't help you make it different even if it looks similar until we have something to work with and offer suggestions. We are not here to bring you down. We are here to encourage you and help you stand up and show us your ideas.  

 

There is more to the soul of an chapter than a symbol and paint. Just like there is more to a person than skin, hair and eye color. Their background, culture and past history all have significant impacts on a person's life. So it is with a fictional chapter. The good part about the fiction is that it can be made up and doesn't have to be complete and yet already show the results.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

To add to GMB.

The thing is more the most part your symbol and colour scheme might be the most unique. But when it comes to the background you will come across so many used ideas I am not sure if creating a new chapter will not include something that has already been done,

For example,

Mysterious founding - Done

Lost in the Warp - Done

High number of Librarians - Done

etc

One of the most unique ideas I have seen is the 2 Chapter Masters one its used by one chapter.

It is very hard to get something unique and I speak from the experience of creating maybe 7 or 8 chapters all of them have different backgrounds but I can guarantee the idea has probably been used. Another example I created a chapter (Zealots of the Emperor) Chaplain Heavy even the Chapter Master is also one, but I bet the idea has also been used.

The thing is making your chapter unique and like no other is going to be a hard thing do to you will end up using something you might have read years ago and think wow nobody ever used that ...

But its possible. I have done a few things with my Blades that are unique to Dark Angels (and Successors), I also painted them Red, I have not seen another DA Successor Chapter thats Red.

I just had a horrible idea that I cant even type in open forums ....

[Grand Master Belial]

 But its possible. I have done a few things with my Blades that are unique to Dark Angels (and Successors), I also painted them Red, I have not seen another DA Successor Chapter thats Red.

 

The fear of Christmas Angels had a strong influence on that front, but you did pull it off beautifully. It is a shame the only photo is your avatar. And while their armor is not red, the Guardians of the Covenant have Red Robes.

 

But the idea of bucking the common trend to create a new chapter, while not new, is a good way to explore a new path of something old into something new. The Imperial Fists and Black Templars are both Sons of Dorn but are near polar opposites.

[Commissar Molotov]

Why do some chapters get away with using visually similar iconography and color schemes? Hawk Lords and their yellow Raven Guard icon, Novamarines, Aurora Chapter, and a few others with the 12 pointed star icon. And lets not forget how many predominantly red colored chapters and warbands out there.

 

Myself, I'm concerned the chapter I'm working on and it's many iterations and themes I've been mulling over, might come out looking too much like another chapter. I've always been a fan of certain colors and paint patterns on armor. One of my favorite chapters, in both theme and appearance, is the Flesh Tearers. Like the Black Templars (another favorite of mine) and many other chapters, the Flesh Tearers are all about the shock assault and bloody efficiency of melee but they also do it in style. The unique iconography of the Flesh Tearers has really left an image of uniqueness in my mind. And of course, look no further than the Space Wolves for uniqueness. Who'd have thought that Shadow Grey/Space Wolves Grey and Bad Moon Yellow / Golden Yellow would ever look so great together? And they take "viking" and "wolf" to a new degree, sometimes overboard, in the grimdark!

 

It's interesting to see what has come from the minds of GW's original developers over the years!

 

Well, there are multiple reasons, in- and out-of-universe. It makes it easier for modellers to use bits and pieces that have iconography sculpted on, or to use and combine transfer sheets. But also, Chapters are likely to pay tribute to those that have gone before. Tradition and legacy is very important to the Imperium. 

 

Again, as I've mentioned before, I think you're over-thinking it. You're also putting far too much emphasis on the colour scheme of your Chapter. That's fine if your primary and initial objective is painting an army, but in the Liber we're interested in the history, culture and "feel" of the Chapter just as much as anything else. Plus, consider that your Chapter may have had multiple colour schemes in the past (there are examples of Chapters changing their colour scheme) or that specific units in the Chapter might have differing schemes (like the Deathwing, Death Company or Ravenwing, for example.) 

 

This in itself allows you to consider that you might have a number of differing schemes. Perhaps the most useful thing for us in the Liber is for you to give us what you have so far for your Chapter, and you can receive some useful feedback. The challenge for you lies in not just accepting that feedback unquestioningly! 

[Julgolax]

OKAY! Here's my big idea! It took a lot of thought and some inspiration, but I think I have a solid concept in the works! REMEMBER, IT'S A WORK IN PROGRESS! I want your feedback to make sure I'm focused :P

GARGOYLES

▪ GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR):- Sanguinius, (Blood Angels)

▪ FOUNDING:- 25^th, 679.M39

▪ CHAPTER MASTER:- Dorias Electo

▪ CHAPTER WORLD:- Feldren’s World

▪ FORTRESS MONASTERY:- The Grimholdt

▪ MAIN COLOURS:- Stone Gray and Dark Crimson

▪ SPECIALITY:- Planetstrikes, Orbital Assaults

▪ BATTLE CRY:- Fidelis Ad Mortem! (Loyalty Unto Death!)

▪ CURRENT STRENGTH:- 10 Companies

▪ KNOWN DESCENDANTS:- None

Origins: The Gargoyles chapter was founded during the Time of Waning when the enemies of the Imperium began to close in on more vital positions within imperial space. They were created initially as a chapter to watch over the Maelstrom but that role quickly changed during their first few centuries. They eventually took an oath to protect worlds of particular religious significance from the predations of Chaos, literally as a safeguard to the faith of the Imperium. This task regularly sees the chapter fighting far from their homeworld as they protect the pilgrims who flock in their millions to shrine worlds and cardinal worlds throughout Segmentum Solar and around the Maelstrom. The chapter has existed for nearly 4000 years and in that time the Gargoyles have proven themselves worthy successors to their mighty heritage.

It must be noted that the chapter does in fact suffer the effects of the Flaw such as the Black Rage, but it is kept hidden from outsiders and is a delicate, internal affair within the chapter. To retain spiritual purity and combat the effects of the Flaw, the chapter’s Sanguinary Priests, Librarians and Chaplains supervise and enforce a strict regimen of treatments as part of the chapter’s daily rituals when not in combat. Each day the chapter’s brothers engage in prayer while their hands are shackled to a special Exsanguinator which drains them almost entirely of blood which is cleaned by a blessed dialysisium and returned to their bodies clean of impurities.

Chapter Home World: Feldren’s World has had a long history, dating back to the time of Saint Feldren who fell while protecting thousands of imperial citizens on his world. Governor Feldren was a devout follower of the Imperial Creed and despite heavy opposition from the wealthier elite of his world’s society, created a sanctuary for imperial citizens on their pilgrimage to holy Terra. Feldren fell in battle against an invading mutant horde that infiltrated the planet’s hive city and tried to slaughter the population. The mutants were eventually put down by the planet’s PDF and Feldren was canonized by the Adeptus Ministorium for his great deeds in the name of the god-emperor.

After that time, the planet had been made a shrine world and placed under the care of the Ministorium’s agents. For a thousand years it served as a site of sanctuary for pilgrims, and a place of pilgrimage in its own right for Saint Feldren, a champion of the people. Later, when the world came under siege from a splinter warband of Word Bearers under a Dark Apostle known as Gelphegor, seeking to cast down and destroy the holy shrine of Feldren and corrupt the people, the Blood Angels 8^th Company appeared. The 8^th Company under the command of Zedrenael, Lord of Skyfall, descended upon the Word Bearers like vengeful angels. The company of assault marines did battle with the Word Bearers in the skies around the hive spires and then vanquished the remainder of the warband trying to defend the shrine complex they desecrated.

Eventually, the stain of chaos was burned clean by the fires of orbital bombardment and though the shrine was mostly destroyed, the people rebuilt the shrine. A century later the Blood Angels were called upon to provide a tithe of gene-seed for the creation a chapter to guard the maelstrom from further chaos incursions and protect Feldren’s World.

Present Activities: The Gargoyles presently are deployed among several systems to patrol and combat recent resurgences in mutant and rebel uprisings that threaten to erupt into war.

Battle Honors: (WIP)

Chapter Organization: The Gargoyles chapter is organized in relatively the same manner as its parent chapter, with several exceptions to their tactical usage. The chapter possesses only 6 Tactical Dreadnaughts and a single relic Daredo Dreadnought in the 9^th Company. The chapter has an abundance of assault marines which are taken in place of Devastators in their battle companies and tactical reserve companies.

The 9^th Company is the only company with Devastators and Terminator suits and is unique in that it is permanently stationed upon Feldren’s World to defend it from attack. A large majority of the chapter’s Whirlwinds, Stalkers, Hunters and Vindicators are also attached to the 9^th Company to aid in their duty making it the largest company of the chapter. The 9^th Company also has tactical command of the planet’s militia forces which act as a proxy PDF in lieu of reinforcements from other companies. It is led by a squad of Terminator armored officers and possesses a unique gift from their parent chapter, Honored Brother Valedictum, former captain of the 9^th Company, who occupies a relic Daredo Dreadnought.

The chapter unfortunately suffers from their inherent flaws such as the Black Rage and Red Thirst, but this occurrence is thankfully rare considering the incredibly harsh treatments each member undergoes to cleanse their bodies and minds. The chapter has roughly 12 brothers at any given time who have fallen to the Flaw and are under the care of an assigned chaplain and deemed suitable to end their suffering in battle rather than by the chaplain’s own hand.

Fleet Assets: Description of the chapters fleet strength, vessel names and any significant fleet action based conflicts.

Recruitment: (WIP)

Chapter Colors: Stone Gray armor, Dark Crimson shoulder plates.

Battle Standards or Chapter Banners (Optional): (WIP)

Battle Honors/relics/decorations/awards: (WIP)

Combat Doctrine: (WIP)

Battle Cry: Fidelis Ad Mortem!

Home World or Home Fleet (if Fleet based)

Local rituals: (WIP)

Beliefs: (WIP)

Gene-Seed: (WIP)

Champions of the Chapter: (WIP)

[paulJam]

So the Chapter functions as a gargoyle to ward off chaos/daemons from sacred sites?

Seems like the basis for some good stories, and (if correct) worth emphasising more in their bio.

 

The only thing i'd add (personal opinion only) is some reference to the grotesque nature of gargoyles.

Otherwise how are they different to paladins, crusaders or other warrior monk types...

[Lysimachus]

Hmm, interesting start. Has the Chapter itself become more religious due the time spent protecting shrines/pilgrims, or do they stick to the 'standard' Astartes beliefs of the Emperor as a man not a God?

 

Perhaps as BA Successors, it could be possible that they'd come to view things differently, especially given the veneration their Primarch has already been given by the Ecclesiarchy (I think I'm right in saying that Sanguinius was the only Primarch made an Imperial Saint? Not to mention getting his own day, the Sanguinala!)

 

As to the BA curse, I wouldn't be too specific as to how well their treatments affect the rage/thirst (or if it even is a proper success? Or rather just something they feel helps so they keep doing it?). I'm pretty sure that if they'd found a definitive way to get it down to a dozen-ish Marines at one time, they'd have told the BA and all the other Successors about it.

[Olis]

I think this:

▪ FOUNDING:- 25^th, 679.M39

And this:

The chapter has existed for nearly 4000 years and in that time the Gargoyles have proven themselves worthy successors to their mighty heritage.

Needs to be reconciled. One or the other must change, obviously.

Anyway. The colours are good - nothing too garish or unusual in the scheme as shown. Very down to earth and believable. I also echo LySiMachus in wondering if the Chapter, saturated in the Imperial Creed, worship the Emperor (and Sanguinius). I think it may be interesting to see the Chapter be devoted as such.

One last thing: I think you are putting too much on the 9th company's plate. Make them the de facto Defenders of Feldren, sure, but don't hand them all the toys too. This Chapter operates in a risky region of space, so grounding assets to their homeworld is not a strategically flexible decision.

[Julgolax]

All great questions so far! I'm a little unsure where to put certain pieces of information in my IA article though. I have this chapter pretty thought out, just not where to put things for a good read.

I was inspired by the gargoyles from the movie I, Frankenstein and combined that interesting take on gargoyles with the Blood Angels. I wanted to give them a reason for having a gargoyle's mentality so the protection of religious worlds within the Imperium as well as acting somewhat like an Astartes Praesus chapter for the Maelstrom seemed natural. The chapter is a unique mixture of Imperial aesthetics and ideology with a flair of what I would call "brutal regal-ness".

I think the chapter would indeed end up revering the Emperor as a divine being because that is what the Imperial Cult is about, but it isn't because of their duties, rather it is because of their limited knowledge of the events of the Emperor's death. They knew he was once an extraordinary mortal man with great powers but, like Jesus, his divinity was released upon the death of his mortal body, or so they were told. And they also believe that Sanguinius was indeed the Emperor's closest son so they suffer no insult to their primarch's honor from anyone, which has caused them to nearly come to blows on several occasions with some Imperial commanders.

And as for their management of the Flaw, I boil it down to the chapter's youth really. Their treatments are on a spiritual as well as physical level, even the Blood Angels don't spend as much time in prayer nor do they subject their brothers to such a harsh regimen of blood treatments. The Gargoyles Sanguinary Priests not only treat the bodies of the marines but also the chapter's chaplains and librarians often minister their brothers during these treatments to help with the process. I was told that I could go as far as I wanted to with these guys and I don't think it's completely out of the realm that a Blood Angels successor could make a daily, non-combat ritual out of this treatment process. Besides, it's not like they don't have their psychological issues when operating for extended times away from their treatment. They do in fact have an unfortunate few who succumb amid their campaigns and when they do, it is so catastrophic that they are usually given the final rites then and there if they aren't killed in battle. The dozen or so Death Company marines are those who are still fit to do battle, but there are so few of them because of how severe their lapses can be. Think of it like this, you can only tell someone something so many times before they completely snap and go nuts. Those who don't "go full retard" so to speak, are kept alive so they may face honorable ends in battle rather than execution like some kind of heretic.

My question now is, would it be too far out of the realm for a chapter to embrace the Imperial Cult while eschewing more traditional beliefs of their parent chapter? I recall there WAS another chapter at some point who believe strongly in the Imperial Cult. The Fire Angels are written as such on the Lexicanum.

Also, I am trying to play up the fact that this chapter is still quite young compared to the second founding and other early foundings, so they may see fit to operate in their own way which is why I wanted to really play on the idea of the chapter being most assault marines with a single devastator-centric company. This duty IS what the 9th company are usually assigned for right? Taking and holding fixed positions? And I just had to put in a Daredo Dreadnought, those things are mightily badass.

EDIT: Also, yeah, I finished this up at almost 2:00 AM, I wasn't exactly thinking straight with my math there. :P 1400 years maybe, definitely not 4000 XD haha

[Olis]

What particular traditional beliefs of the BA are you considering dropping? Having the chapter strongly follow the Imperial Creed, to me, is perfectly viable. Especially considering Feldren harbours a strong Cult following.

[Julgolax]

Well, I mean more of the beliefs like the Emperor isn't a deity and things that most chapters deny from the Imperial Cult.

 

(On a side note... ugh, I hate that word "Cult", I just happened to watch a special on the history channel yesterday about the dangers of real world cults... creepy stuff.)