Conscripts rules help

[CommissarZac]

Been looking at the Codex and I can't find where it used to say Conscripts can ONLY be used as part of an Infantry platoon.  Does this mean that now I can take Conscripts without taking an infantry platoon?

[WarriorFish]

Try looking at the first paragraph bits for the Platoon entry, it should say there :)

[CommissarZac]

I have reread both the Fluff and Force org text for Infantry platoons, and I cannot find the disclaimer that was in the prior dex, that states

 

*Note the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually - only as part of an infantry platoon.

[SW1]

So your saying you can take random special or heavy weapons squads outside of an infantry platoon?

 

It says:

 

Conscripts - each infantry platoon may include one squad of conscripts.

[CommissarZac]

Exactly.  It says 
Each infantry platoon MAY include one squad of conscripts.  Not that Conscripts may only be used in infantry platoons like in the previous dex.  No Errata either.

[SW1]

All different unit options have their own separate entry in the codex between pages 30 - 59. The only place the units that make up the infantry platoon are mentioned are as options for the infantry platoon. If you want to have just conscripts play unbound.

[CommissarZac]

While I like the option of unbound, I still wonder what happened to the disclaimer that was in the former Dex.

[SW1]

It wasn't needed, the two pages are giving the option for the infantry platoon. If you check out the top it says whatever options you choose in an infantry platoon the combined lot class as a single troops selection. Those options don't have the option to just select a conscript unit.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Exactly.  It says 

Each infantry platoon MAY include one squad of conscripts.  Not that Conscripts may only be used in infantry platoons like in the previous dex.  No Errata either.

 

Right. Individual unit entries also say things like "x may take items from the melee weapons and/or ranged weapons lists" ... doesn't mean you can take a plasma gun on its own, even though you will not find an entry anywhere stating that meltaguns may only be used on specified models.

[WarriorFish]

Here's another question, can you even take conscripts by themselves as unbound? They're part of a Platoon and that's the only way they work, I understand unbound as taking units themselves as you like rather than the specifics of units?

[CommissarZac]

I have taken to writing GW for clarification.

Hello,

    I am writing in regards to Conscripts and Heavy weapon/special weapon squads in the Astra Militarum Codex.  In the previous codex there was a disclaimer *-The units on these two pages may not be chosen individually, only as part of an infantry platoon.

Does this disclaimer still stand or may we take Conscripts and heavy weapon/special weapons squads individually now?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

-Zac

[Jacinda]

Ask them if you can take Chimeras on their own, too.

 

OK, that was cheap, but I really don't think unit upgrades can be taken as stand alone units, even if they act that way once you add them to the main unit.

 

[eta]

Don't forget, the rules are also permissive. Just because it never says you can't does not mean you can. You have to be given permission to do anything before you can actually can.

[CommissarZac]

LOL And again with the wording.  I see no text saying Dedicated Transports MUST take troops embarked on them.  Agreed with the permission, but I just want to know for my own sake.

[Jacinda]

/nod

 

I understand.

GW's email response rate is not like it once was, but I hope you get your answer.

[varchilde]

The Dedicated Transport rules in the Rule Book state that they are bought as an option with a unit.

 

WF: I think you can take conscripts outside of a platoon in an unbound list; Unbound says "simply use whichever units from your collection you want". An Infantry Platoon is a Single Force Org Slot Troop choice composed of multiple units.

 

And I agree with the general concensus: in a Battle Forged list, a conscript squad has to be taken as part of an infantry platoon, it isn't an independent troop choice in its own right.

[CommissarZac]

@Varchilde:  True but it doesn't limit how many you can take :eg 1 squad of vets with 10 chimera, 1 for each vet.  Just some of the particulars I wish to know.

I don't mean to doubt everyone, but I just have a nagging feeling about the wording and I would rather just know straight from the horses mouth, lest someone else use this tactic against me.

[varchilde]

@Varchilde:  True but it doesn't limit how many you can take :eg 1 squad of vets with 10 chimera, 1 for each vet.  Just some of the particulars I wish to know.

 

CommissarZac: Well, the Veteran/Chimera example is limited since it says "the squad may take a chimera".

 

Transports do get confusing in 7th ed codexes, where they seem to get a FOC entry, as well as being a dedicated transport option. Alas for the guard it's dedicated transports all the way.

 

I do agree though, it's good to get everything clear to avoid confusion mid-game.

[march10k]

Um...even unbound lists, as far as I can tell, don't allow conscripts outside of a platoon...that would be as legal as fielding a squad of three termies or fielding a five man tactical squad with las/plas...you still have to follow everything except FOC, IIRC.  So, because the conscripts only exist in the context of an infantry platoon....?  If they were a separate entry, but required an infantry platoon to be fielded first, the way that a marine command squad or techmarine is a separate unit, but with the caveat that you can take 0-1 for each non-techie, non-command squad HQ...then I'd say there's an argument to be made...but conscripts are part of a platoon.  They deploy separately, but that's no different than a dedicated transport and the two halves of a combat-squadded tactical squad deploying in three separate locations.

 

 

 

WF: I think you can take conscripts outside of a platoon in an unbound list; Unbound says "simply use whichever units from your collection you want". An Infantry Platoon is a Single Force Org Slot Troop choice composed of multiple units.

 

 

The issue is the definition of "unit."  If I take a maxed out ravenwing attack squadron, I have six regular bikes (can be 2x3), an attack bike, and a landspeeder...that, at minimum, I have to deploy as three separate units...but nobody would argue that I could field just the attack bike!   The attack bike is a component of the attack squadron unit, not a unit in its own right.  I would say that for the purpose of building an army list, the definition of "unit" is quite different from the definition of "unit" on the table top.  At army building, a full tactical squad with a rhino is one unit...once deployed, they might be three separate units.  Anything you put into an unbound list still has to be a legal unit as listed in the codex, and the codex does not allow for independent conscript blobs.

[scatmandoo]

I wasn't going to wade in but here goes......

 

 

Look at the wording under "Infantry Platoon"

It states, "Composition: 1 PCS, 2-5 inf squads, 0-5 HWS, 0-3 SWS and 0-1 Conscripts squad. Each infantry platoon counts as a single troops slot on the force organisation.

 

By saying this, the only way of accessing Conscripts is by getting an basic Infantry platoon of 1 x PCS and 2 x Inf Sqauds.

 

There is no other way. You saying that the book says you can't is just, IMO, stupid.

 

Ask yourself would you just take either a SWS or a HWS? In your logic you could but again as you and everyone else knows, the only way to access them is in an Infantry Platoon.

 

I wish I could take conscripts themselves but we can't.

[varchilde]

March, agreed it comes down to the definition of a unit. 

 

The unit definition in the book basically says it's a bunch of models banded together or a big nasty like a tank. Not much help.

 

I'm looking at the Force Organisation Charts and Slots section in the rulebook. Paraphrasing it says each FOC slot is allocated to a unit (and gives it a Battlefield Role (HQ, troop, etc.)

 

Later is says "Occasionally a FO slot will specify a particular unit or units, in which case only those particular units may (or must) be taken.

 

And under "Multiple Unit Choices": Sometime's a unit's Army List Entry will allow a player to include several units at the cost of a single FO slot (like AM infantry platoons). Apart from using up a single slot, these units operate and count as separate units in all other respects.

 

So my reading is that even at the list building stage an infantry platoon and a Ravenwing Attack Squadron is composed of multiple units. (I'll confess that the Ravenwing Attack Squadron Combat Squad rule confuses me in the context of unbound since it says the Attack Bike is bought with the other bikes, but then acts as a separate unit...) 

 

I agree with your examples of 3 termies or 5 tacs with las/plas being illegal, and hence not able to be taken in an Unbound list, with 20 conscripts with flash lights is a legal unit at list building stage and hence is valid for Unbound. 

 

My opinion only. I should qualify this all by saying I don't play unbound (and think it's pretty silly...).

[WarriorFish]

I've never even encountered unbound... I'm pretty sure that it's intended to be as a unit thing, so you can never take conscripts without a Platoon but it wouldn't surprise me if the wording is a bit woolly.

[CommissarZac]

I wasn't going to wade in but here goes......

 

 

Look at the wording under "Infantry Platoon"

It states, "Composition: 1 PCS, 2-5 inf squads, 0-5 HWS, 0-3 SWS and 0-1 Conscripts squad. Each infantry platoon counts as a single troops slot on the force organisation.

 

 

And my point is, that is what you need for an "Infantry platoon".  I don't want a platoon I just want conscripts and HWS.  The old dex had a disclaimer that clearly stated Conscripts, etc may ONLY be taken as part of an Infantry Platoon.  If GW is letting me interpret the rules then I am all about exploiting loopholes.  But before I make a fool of myself I just want confirmation.  If GW got rid of the disclaimer, and did not explain that I can't then I just want confirmation from the top so I can run the list I want.  Even if it is Unbound.

[scatmandoo]

 

 

I wasn't going to wade in but here goes......

 

 

Look at the wording under "Infantry Platoon"

It states, "Composition: 1 PCS, 2-5 inf squads, 0-5 HWS, 0-3 SWS and 0-1 Conscripts squad. Each infantry platoon counts as a single troops slot on the force organisation.

 

And my point is, that is what you need for an "Infantry platoon". I don't want a platoon I just want conscripts and HWS. The old dex had a disclaimer that clearly stated Conscripts, etc may ONLY be taken as part of an Infantry Platoon. If GW is letting me interpret the rules then I am all about exploiting loopholes. But before I make a fool of myself I just want confirmation. If GW got rid of the disclaimer, and did not explain that I can't then I just want confirmation from the top so I can run the list I want. Even if it is Unbound.

I believe they did that as in the previous codex to that they were a separate option I believe.

 

The only way the conscripts can be taken is as part of a Inf Platoon because of the statement under their entry clearly stating they may be taken as part of a Inf Platoon, the same wording for both special weapons squads and heavy weapons squads.

 

Tbh 130 points for a 20 man inf squad that can be better conscripts and a Platoon command squad isn't much of a tax.

 

I appreciate trying to find a loophole, but there just isn't one here.

[march10k]

Notice that varchilde wants to concede that a "unit" of three termies is illegal, but ignore the solo ravenwing attack bike example (which is a much closer analogue to the conscript squad)...I assume that means he's uncomfortable with the comparison because he can see the similarity in the examples, but the solo bike "feels" wrong to him no matter how badly he wants the conscripts to be legal?  Also conveniently ignoring my example of spamming dedicated transports without fielding the associated units...at XX points each, imagine an army of chimeras...

[varchilde]

I didn't really ignore the solo ravenwing attack bike example; I did say that I wasn't sure how the Ravenwing Combat Squad rule works with in the context of Unbound army selection since the rule says the attack bike is purchased with the bikes but from then on operates as an independent unit of one model.

 

I can see the parallels between the Ravenwing squadron and the infantry platoon; the point of difference was the Combat Squad rule. And I honestly don't know how that rule works in an Unbound context. 

 

I don't feel uncomfortable about the solo attack bike "feeling wrong" and I really don't "badly want the conscripts to be legal". This is an interesting rules query and I'm trying to present my understanding of the rules from reading of the relevant material. At the end of the day if it's open to interpretation I'd expect players to come to an agreement about how they play it in their game.

 

And as for dedicated transports; yes in Unbound (as I understand it) you can spam Chimeras without the associated troops. 

 

TLDR; For Unbound I guess it's about whether you define "Unit" at the FOC entry level (i.e. a Platoon), or at the level below (Conscripts, Heavy Weapon Squad). I think the rules support the latter, but would be happy playing either with mutual agreement as it is ambiguous.