Starting Out 2: Dragoons and Ironstriders

[Marshal Ommadon]

I decided to continue the "Starting Out" discussion but I wanted to focus on the Walkers the Skitarii have.

 

I bought 2 Ironstrider boxes and I wanted to survey the boards opinions on their relevancy and useful weapon load-outs.  I was going to make both of mine Sydonian Dragoons as I felt that the Taser Lance looked appealing but as this is a more shooting based army I am now leaning towards equipping my Dragoons with Radium Jezzails and Phosphor Serpentas.  Here's why:

 

After studying both Dragoon and Ironstrider profiles I started to think that the Dragoon may just be a better ranged platform than the Ironstrider.  The Dragoon has an "obscured" cover save all the time of 5+ (helpful when traversing the tabletop).  The Dragoon can get 2 ranged weapons the Jezzail (30" SX, AP5, Heavy 2 Sniper Rad Poison) and the Serpenta (18" S5, AP4, Assault 1 Luminagen) which on paper may be better than the one gun an Ironstrider gets (granted that gun is either a Autocannon or Lascannon).

 

What do you guys think?  Is it actually better to make Dragoons with ranged weapons or is it better to just take an Ironstrider? 

[jeffersonian000]

By definition, Dragoons are mounted gunmen. In this edition of range over assault, going with the range option is recommended.

 

As to which is better? Both. I'm planning on having units of both, Jezzails and Autocannons.

 

SJ

[Castellan Cato]

I don't really see the Jezzail+Serpenta being a very good choice.  Their roles are different.  You want the snipers at max range poking big gribblies and the Serpenta doesnt have the range for that.  Its intended as a way to give your dragoons a little bit of shooty and to re-roll the charge distance of any squads going into combat along side the dragoons

[Jarl of Wulfen]

I picked up one and was going to build it with the autocannons to give my rangers back-up fire power, something that can shoot farther than they can.

[Zembar]

I like the ballistarius, both for the range and because the weapons are so easy to swap out, giving you more options for the buck.

 

The fact that they're cognis means they have a decent overwatch punch, can help deal with invisibility, and will work as decent anti-air in a pinch.

[Emperor's Furor]

I think I may be taking some for anit-tank duties, in support of my knight and onagers who are mostly anti infantry.

[Marshal Ommadon]

All good stuff.  I agree that since this edition, and army for that matter, are geared for ranged combat that a ranged Dragoon would be the better of the Dragoon's options.  But, damnit I think the taser lanced Dragoon just looks so cool!

 

The Serpenta does kindof favor the melee based Dragoon, I just thought to add it since it's relatively cheap and if your target happens to be within 18" well that's just more firepower and a cover save debuff.

[jeffersonian000]

I love that with the Onager, we finally see the Imperial version of the Defiler. Looking forward to more Mechanicus/Dark Mechanicus crossovers, such as Chaos Ironstriders (which look an awful lot like the old Subjugator Knight Titans).

 

SJ

[Marshal Ommadon]

I wouldn't be surprised if Skitarii are Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies with Chaos Space Marines!  You can totally do a Dark Mechcanicum then! 

[Castellan Cato]

I wouldn't be surprised if Skitarii are Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies with Chaos Space Marines!  You can totally do a Dark Mechcanicum then! 

 

Its already been confirmed that they are an "Army of the Imperium."  Therefore "Come the Apoc" allies with Chaos only.

[Marshal Ommadon]

Bah your right, I'd still let my friends do it just house rule it that they are Desperate Allies and run with it.  Skitarii are just too cool to pass up the chance to make them Chaos!

[ronin_cse]

Is the army really geared mostly toward shooting though? I feel like the Vanguard are mid-range to melee range, both elite choices are melee oriented, and of course there's the Dragoon. Seems like about half of our choices are at least halfway melee units.

With the massive range of the Dragoons most things should be in range by the 2nd turn. Sure they will get shot up fast if they get focused on, but I don't know if they are threatening enough that they would take fire over your other units. I suppose we will have to wait for some good play testing before really deciding.

Plus Dragoons with the lance look way cooler

Edit: I guess I forgot to say that dealing with just the Dragoon I like the lance. Maybe the sniper looks decent on paper, but we're talking 2 shots that have a 50% chance of not wounding. Rolling that 6 to wound would be great, but I don't think it should be relied upon. Whereas the lance gets a decent amount of attacks and will get even more with 6s to hit. Maybe not great against terminator and such, but Dragoons will destroy vehicles fairly easily. Compared to the Ironstriders though, I am very undecided. The Ironstriders seem decent, but do they seem better than an Onager?

[Xenith]

Twin linked precision shot lascannon?

 

Why is this a question?

 

;)

[ronin_cse]

Twin linked precision shot lascannon?

Why is this a question?

I totally forgot they have precision shots! Plus if you take them in the Ironstrider formation you can re-roll wounds against a nominated character and their unit.

[doctorbored]

Yeah, it's that Precision Shots that first made me want the Ballistarius over the Dragoons. 

 

A squad of 3 of those Autocannon Balistarii will be very potent against pretty much all targets. Being able to pump out enough shots to put threat on light vehicles and infantry, and each re-roll is another opportunity to get that 6 to put extra pressure on special weapons and power fists to give the rest of your assault units an easier time. 

 

Remembering that the weapons are twin-linked is key, especially for those turns when Doctrina Imperatives will give you -BS to get +WS. Again: more re-rolls gives you more chances to get 6's on those Precision Shots, so getting lower BS isn't necessarily a bad thing if you want your units sniping out special weapons, characters, and HQ's, which is probably why Rangers get that rule too. Getting re-roll to wound in the formation is just icing on the cake at that point.

 

I think squadrons of 3 is going to be a good number for both squads. Any more, and you're clumping too many points in one squad, and any less and the impact they have on the field just won't make much of a difference, though I could see single lascannon-toting Balistarii being nice and potent. Twin-linked on a single-shot weapon is always welcome.

[Marshal Ommadon]

Damn I'm so torn on either Taser Lance Dragoons or Autocannon Ironstriders....

 

I still worry that the Ironstrider will get shot up too quickly with AV11 2HP and Open-Topped, at least the Dragoon has a 5+ cover save.  Maybe I'll try to do 3 Taser Dragoons and 2 Autocannon Ironstriders I don't know!

 

I will have the codex in hand Friday, maybe that will help me out lol!

[MithrilForge]

i Like both choices, you are right that the lance Dragoon is Visually Very Cool

i get the feel that a unit of dragoons would make a great flank defense unit charging into the side of a unit that's about to assault your " Vanguard/Ranger" unit kinda like a Warhammer Bretonnian Knights unit... i dont know if the points use would be a waste on a unit floating around waiting for a charge opportunity

My first model made will most likely be an Ironstrider as a support unit to a Ranger squad...

Best of luck in your Final choice and with your army!!

Mithril

[Cactus]

I think it's worth noting that as a walker a Dragoon with a jezzail and serpenta can fire them both in the shooting phase. I'm not sure I'd want to spend the points on that loadout, but it's an option.

[Charlo]

I think it's worth noting that as a walker a Dragoon with a jezzail and serpenta can fire them both in the shooting phase. I'm not sure I'd want to spend the points on that loadout, but it's an option.

 

This is true, and then you get three pretty strong shots per model, with the chance to reduce cover before you hopefully score some nasty AP2 multi wound precision on the enemy!

[Emperor's Furor]

I'm thinking of having three Dragoons in my 1.5k list. If they get weapon destroyed can they lose their lances and am I right in thinking they are strength 8 on the charge, 7 normally when you factor in the additional strength from the lance?

 

They have sufficient armour that they can tie up infantry units who don't have high enough strength to pen their armour and the speed to close the infantry down as well and maybe even throw off some shots because of their cover save.

[Aethernitas]

I'm thinking of having three Dragoons in my 1.5k list. If they get weapon destroyed can they lose their lances and am I right in thinking they are strength 8 on the charge, 7 normally when you factor in the additional strength from the lance?

 

They have sufficient armour that they can tie up infantry units who don't have high enough strength to pen their armour and the speed to close the infantry down as well and maybe even throw off some shots because of their cover save.

Yes to the strength.

 

If 11 armour is "sufficient" is questionable. A reason why dreadnought still struggle nowadays is the fact that so many units have krak-nades and some even sport haywire grenades. Due to their extremely high mobility Dragoons can choose their targets carefully but on the other hand they are not survivable enough to spend too much time stalking the vicinity of the opponents army without beeingin close combat.

[Vel'Cona]

Have you guys seen the formation for them yet, though?  The Ironstrider Cavalier formation only requires you to take 2 Dragoon units and 1 Ironstrider unit, and lets the whole formation Outflank AND has Acute Senses to get them more likely where you want them!  The buy in for this formation is exactly 145 points, and it's better than using the Detachment because you only get two FA choices from that.  Even better, this formation lets you roll for the whole thing from Reserves in a single roll, from turn 1!

 

While I had initially discounted the Dragoons as "kind of meh", I think in the Cavalier formation they're almost better than the Ironstriders!  That said, being able to Outflank a unit of 2 or 3 Ironstriders with Lascannons could be amazing for taking out Wave Serpent's vulnerable Rear AV 10, or really any vehicle that has its side or rear facing a table edge.  Read this formation very carefully, gents; I think you'll be surprised!

[Marshal Ommadon]

It made me pick a 3rd Ironstrider box to make a Ballistarii so I can use the formation. 

[Battybattybats]

I'm starting with a dragoon with lance and serpenta for rule of cool reasons.
There are some modelling difficulties with this though.

They give you a holstered serpenta and a holsetered jezzail, but no indication of where they fit on the models.
They don't give you any stowage or holster or carrying means for the taser lance other than the right hand.
The drawn Jezzail is also in the right hand.
The drawn Serpenta is in the left hand.
They give you a left hand steering part and a right hand steering part but not a hands-free one.

This means that once you figure out where the holstered parts might fit it's easy to make a dragoon with jezzail and serpenta with one holstered, one drawn and the free hand steering.

It means on your lance ones though that either you must convert from the two sets of handlebars one without a hand on it in order to have a lancer with drawn serpenta or all your lancers with serpenta's will have to have theirs holstered, wherever they might go.

My first lancer will have a holstered serpenta, though i'm still working out where it will fit best, though that's not as bad as with the holstered jezzail! I'll do the handlebar conversion for a later one holding their lance and with drawn serpenta.

[Marshal Ommadon]

I am finishing my Lancer one as we speak and saw the same issue.  I am going to build the Ironstrider Cavalier formation and I wanted to give my Dragoons a Serpenta too.  Let me know where you best fit the holstered Serpenta. 

 

Talk about a pain in the ass how about that one leg's tiny hose that you have to glue on!  You'll know what I'm talking about when you get to that step!