Starting Out 3: Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers

[Marshal Ommadon]

Just wanted to organize the discussion on these great new units!

[Marshal Ommadon]

To start this tread off:

 

Do you guys think it's worth changing the Ruststalkers weapons to 2 Transoinc Blades?    If you do upgrade them they lose their grenades but gain +1 S.  I'm also under the impression that if you chose to upgrade then the whole unit has to take the 2 blades too, it's not an upgrade per model.

[Aethernitas]

To start this tread off:

 

Do you guys think it's worth changing the Ruststalkers weapons to 2 Transoinc Blades?    If you do upgrade them they lose their grenades but gain +1 S.  I'm also under the impression that if you chose to upgrade then the whole unit has to take the 2 blades too, it's not an upgrade per model.

Nooooupe. I'm absolutely positive that that is not a good idea. Loosing the multipurpose assault/haywire grenades and a garanteed fleshbane attack for +1 strength? No. Nein. Niet. Not going to happen.

[Marshal Ommadon]

That's the way I was leaning too.

 

Now would you make your Warlord either a Infiltrator Princeps or a Rustalker Princeps?  I feel that they would have a bit more durability than an Alpha, no?

[Dusktiger]

reading the warlord traits, and the fact that their detachment gives the warlord Preferred Enemy automatically along with the ability to reroll on the warlord table, i would say a Princeps would be the go-to choice for warlord.  the benefits that can stack up from all of that are inherently good for that type of character afterall.

[Marshal Ommadon]

I was thinking that I would maybe make my Infiltrator Princeps my Warlord.  This is because I feel that the Ruststalkers are a more melee based than the Infiltrators and I'm too worried about having a 2 wound T3 model that is designed to be in melee be my Warlord.

[Commander Dawnstar]

So I've had a bit of a revelation this morning and I'm wondering whether anyone else agrees with me that Taser Goad Infiltrators, when with your Warlord, are surprisingly effective melee unit against most targets, particularly hordes:

 

Taser, their Neurostatic Aura and the Warlord's conferred Preferred Enemy mean that they hit more than 100% of the time against MEQ targets even without Imperatives and proceed to wound with thirty-five attacks for every thirty-six hits. A unit of five Infiltrators with your Warlord is statistically wounding close to 24 times on the charge, enough to overwhelm your enemies through sheer weight of armour saves, and will tear great gaping holes in Ork mobs or Tyranids. Add to this another four or five saves from your pistols before the charge and you're bordering on 30 wounds in a single turn.

[Emperor's Furor]

Does preferred enemy transfer to the unit he's in or just the warlord himself? I just noticed as well if your warlord is not a Vanguard Alpha or Ranger Alpha you only get to roll a D3 on the Warlord traits table in the codex.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Like Shrouded, Stealth and the like, Preferred Enemy is one of those rules that states that a unit that contains at least one model with the rule gains all the benefits.

[Dom_]

So I've had a bit of a revelation this morning and I'm wondering whether anyone else agrees with me that Taser Goad Infiltrators, when with your Warlord, are surprisingly effective melee unit against most targets, particularly hordes:

 

Taser, their Neurostatic Aura and the Warlord's conferred Preferred Enemy mean that they hit more than 100% of the time against MEQ targets even without Imperatives and proceed to wound with thirty-five attacks for every thirty-six hits. A unit of five Infiltrators with your Warlord is statistically wounding close to 24 times on the charge, enough to overwhelm your enemies through sheer weight of armour saves, and will tear great gaping holes in Ork mobs or Tyranids. Add to this another four or five saves from your pistols before the charge and you're bordering on 30 wounds in a single turn.

I absolutely agree that the taser goads are the way to go. I've done test rolling against a marine statline, and they get so many attacks, so many hits, so many wounds that they can overwhelm any infantry unit. Even against termies they were killing between 3-5 before they take any hits back. Compared to the power sword combinations, they would kill an even amount of marines, but the taser goads would kill far more against other armour saves.

 

You also get the pistol shots before hand that can always risk another 1-2 marines.

[TheAvengingKnee]

I am still torn on which to field they all seem to have their pros and cons. 

[Brother Amarel]

In terms of Infiltrator Weapons, I've not done anything more than cursory math-hammer, but I'm pretty sure that Tasers are a little bit worse against MEQ (as in, within 1W on the charge) but are better to some degree against all other targets (albeit as marginal as within 1W on at least one). Of course I might be forgetting a T3 power-armoured unit (I'm not counting single figures, such as Inquisitors), which Power Swords would be a decent amount better against.

[Dom_]

In terms of Infiltrator Weapons, I've not done anything more than cursory math-hammer, but I'm pretty sure that Tasers are a little bit worse against MEQ (as in, within 1W on the charge) but are better to some degree against all other targets (albeit as marginal as within 1W on at least one). Of course I might be forgetting a T3 power-armoured unit (I'm not counting single figures, such as Inquisitors), which Power Swords would be a decent amount better against.

Did you take into account the -1 WS from their aura. Makes a big difference against marines and the like. They also get +1 attack with the taser options.

[Brother Amarel]

 

In terms of Infiltrator Weapons, I've not done anything more than cursory math-hammer, but I'm pretty sure that Tasers are a little bit worse against MEQ (as in, within 1W on the charge) but are better to some degree against all other targets (albeit as marginal as within 1W on at least one). Of course I might be forgetting a T3 power-armoured unit (I'm not counting single figures, such as Inquisitors), which Power Swords would be a decent amount better against.

Did you take into account the -1 WS from their aura. Makes a big difference against marines and the like. They also get +1 attack with the taser options.

Yes to both of those. However the WS difference is tricky to confirm as it's safe to assume that on a big melee turn there might well be an appropriate Imperitive up, too.

 

Out of interest are people reading the Taser rule to mean the original hit and then two additional, or that the hit adds two additional hits (rather than one)?

[Commander Dawnstar]

I'm fairly certain that the wording is exactly the same as that of Necrons' Tesla weapons. It causes two additional hits rather than two hits total.

[CommodusXIII]

Three hits total - the one that passed, and two additional hits generated when the first passed and which themselves pass automatically.

[Dom_]

 

 

In terms of Infiltrator Weapons, I've not done anything more than cursory math-hammer, but I'm pretty sure that Tasers are a little bit worse against MEQ (as in, within 1W on the charge) but are better to some degree against all other targets (albeit as marginal as within 1W on at least one). Of course I might be forgetting a T3 power-armoured unit (I'm not counting single figures, such as Inquisitors), which Power Swords would be a decent amount better against.

Did you take into account the -1 WS from their aura. Makes a big difference against marines and the like. They also get +1 attack with the taser options.

Yes to both of those. However the WS difference is tricky to confirm as it's safe to assume that on a big melee turn there might well be an appropriate Imperitive up, too.

 

Out of interest are people reading the Taser rule to mean the original hit and then two additional, or that the hit adds two additional hits (rather than one)?

Its definitely 2 additional hits. Especially when you read the rule for rad poisoning along side it, which reads 2 instead of 1.

[Brother Amarel]

Cool, thanks all - thought best to quickly double check.

 

Edit: It is a classic wording change between rules, though, isn't it? One says "causes 2 Wounds", the other says "causes 2 additional hits"; why not (in the case of the second rule) go with "causes 3 hits"?

[CommodusXIII]

Ease of use, I guess. "Causes 2 wounds" is at the end of the process - you're done rolling, and now it goes to your opponent for saving throws. "Causes 2 additional hits" adds two more dice to your to-wound pool. Does that make sense?

[Aethernitas]

I just did the math of a 5 man Infiltrator squad with taser goads (and nothing else) charging vanilla marines. The amount of wounds they do is ridiculous! 21 attacks on the charge translate into an average 21 hits (hitting on 3+ due to their aura + the extra attacks from the taser sepcial rule) which wound on 2+ so thats a total of 17,5 wounds on the charge. Yes, SEVENTEEN and then some. Did I mention that they hit first, also because of their aura? Even terminators quiver in fear when those guys get to charge.

Downside beeing ofc the lack of grenades and the flechette blaster is not a good weapon, scoring equally many hits against MEQ as the stub carbine but with shorter range and becoming much worse (and potentially useless) against enemies with higher toughness.

 

I'm really having a hard time here deciding between Ruststalkers and Infiltrators and right now I think I'll get both. The Infiltrators as counter-charger to make sure I'm not punished for their lack of grenades and the ruststalkers against TEQ and all kinds of vehicles cuz of their haywire grenade awesomeness.

[MaulerUK]

I'm going with 'Stalkers first as they're a more versatile unit IMO.  The grenades give them a minor poisoned ranged attack, they can assault into cover, each has an 84% chance to land at least one wound regardless of toughness, they have access to AP2 aaaaaaand can easily wreck almost any vehicle in the game in assault.  They're better vs armoured targets while Infiltrators are better vs light targets and blobs.  Ideally I'd combine the two vs one target, the Infiltrators can thin the numbers while the Ruststalkers can handle any Champion-types.

[Aethernitas]

I'm going with 'Stalkers first as they're a more versatile unit IMO.  The grenades give them a minor poisoned ranged attack, they can assault into cover, each has an 84% chance to land at least one wound regardless of toughness, they have access to AP2 aaaaaaand can easily wreck almost any vehicle in the game in assault.  They're better vs armoured targets while Infiltrators are better vs light targets and blobs.  Ideally I'd combine the two vs one target, the Infiltrators can thin the numbers while the Ruststalkers can handle any Champion-types.

 

Thing is the Infiltrators easily beat the Ruststalkers on the charge against pretty much anything that isn't in cover. Even against TEQ they do more wounds (on the charge - so before the Transonic weapons really come online) and against anything that isn't rear armor 13+ (so anything but a Land Raider) they strip faaaaar more hullpoints than Ruststalker. On an unmoving vehicle with rear armor 10 they average a stunning 14 hullpoints and even against an armor of 12 they still do 4,67 hullpoints. Against a moving vehicle is looks like that: vs armor 10 they do 11,25 and vs armor 12 "only" 3,75. All of that calculation doesn't even include the chance to penetrate against armor 11 or lower.

 

Thats what makes them so hard to choose cuz the only real saving grace for the ruststalkers are they grenades to assault into cover (the haywire is only relevant against armor 13+) which indeed IS a huge advantage but I dunno if it makes up for all the awesomness the Infiltrators stand for :D

[Vel'Cona]

Welp, I've been going back and forth on the two units since they were spoiled, since I really want to make the most of an expensive box set.  I'll weight in thusly:

 

Ruststalkers:

+Cheaper

+Better in melee vs. numerically superior enemies (Orks, IG)

+Can handle varied targets (Haywire)

+Can charge into Cover (grenades)

-No deployment tricks

-Very fragile to shooting

-Very little ranged game

 

Infiltrators:

+Have far more shooting attacks (remember, one Ruststalker can throw a grenade)

+More durable (Stealth)

+Flexible deployment options (Infiltrate, they can also Outflank AND have access to Acute Senses)

+Better in melee vs. MEQ (standard equip)

+Neurostatic Aura debuffs

-Expensive

-Anti-armor somewhat limited (Taser Goads are max S6 in melee)

-No assault grenades (very problematic)

 

The winner for me are Infiltrators, by a hair.  The reality of Ruststalkers is you'll deploy them on table, opponent will look at their stat-line and go "hey, Toughness 3?  Let me just get my Assault Cannons/Autocannons/Scatter Lasers/etc." While they have Feel No Pain, 2 wounds, and a 6++, none of that will really matter vs. S6+ shooting (which is all over the place).  The lack of a native transport (and Bulky) are further issues that the base codex has no solution for.  While Infiltrators lack the pure anti-tank of Haywire and will have problems assaulting into cover (in general, their lack of grenades is a huge problem), the fact that they can deploy in several different ways and can take better advantage of cover will see them be generally more effective.

[Aethernitas]

Ruststalkers:

+More powerful in melee (especially on the charge)

+Can handle varied targets (Haywire)

[...]

 

The point about beeing more powerful in melee is mostly not true. Maybe against some niche cases like against TEQ after the first round of combat. I don't factor in the grenades because you had them as a seperate point.

 

Beeing better at handling varied targets is generally true but the infiltrators are much more dependable handling anything armor 12 and less.

[Kilofix]

Do we think that groups of 5 are large enough to weather fire before Assaulting?

 

Even with 2W, FNP and likely Turn 2 Charge, they're only T3 and can be ID'ed by Autocannons with no saves.