Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I don't know if this has already been done, but I wanted to point out some goofy things with GW's new name for our beloved Imperial Guard. First, Astra Militarum, did anybody look this up? Did GW really think this through? Astra Militarum translates to Star Soldiers from latin. That sounds incredibly stupid, and not at all what the Guard is about, Praetorii is the direct translation of Imperial Guard to latin (at least according to google, but since praetorian has already been used with necrons I get why they didn't use it). Still I would have thought GW could have been a bit more creative, instead of trying to shoehorn latin words into English grammar. Second, Militarum Tempestus, broken down Militarum is Militia or Military, tempestus is weather. Directly, Military Weather. Wow. That's the best they could come up with? I was military weather, and we were never that cool. Now, tempestas translates as storm. A little bit of google fu could have made Weather Militia into Storm Militia, which sounds better. Also, Scions, while it's a cool sounding word, with the meaning "decendants of notable families", scion is not the right word here. This bugged me, so I wanted to get it off my chest. If this thread is counter productive, or a duplicate, the Commissariat should strike it from the record. If not, I'd love to hear what y'all think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ania Redfang Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I don't know whether this'll help but High Gothic (I think that's the language) is not latin, so don't try to compare words directly. It's influenced by it, sure, that's why the feel of the phrases are similar, Militarum Tempestus, Astra Militarum and so on, but it isn't the same, it is its own language. Maybe this helps, maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoic Raptor Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Astra Militarum translates to Star Soldiers from latin. That sounds incredibly stupid, and not at all what the Guard is about, Praetorii is the direct translation of Imperial Guard to latin Second, Militarum Tempestus, broken down Militarum is Militia or Military, tempestus is weather. Directly, Military Weather. Wow. That's the best they could come up with? I was military weather, and we were never that cool. Now, tempestas translates as storm. I think we already went over this in the thread about "Adeptus Astartes". Consider how much Latin has changed in the 15 centuries since it was last widely spoken - then imagine how it will become corrupted in the 38 millennia still to come. Heck, you wouldn't even recognize English from a thousand years ago - that's how much these things change. Praetors were field commanders and magistrates. The Praetorian Guard is what you're thinking of, which was an Imperial Bodyguard (in 40K we call those the Adeptus Custodes). So, no, that's not at all the best term for what they do. I personally don't see a problem with referring to them as "Star Soldiers" - that's what they are. They fight Humanity's countless wars among countless stars. As for the Tempestus/Tempestas, it's quite obvious that this would be the proper name for the soldiers we have known as "Imperial Storm Troopers" for decades in this game. I think that people who try to translate High Gothic into literal Latin will always find themselves disappointed. It's obvious that Latin was a historical root of High Gothic, but they are obviously not the same tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Remember, GW Latin isn't strictly Latin (nor pig Latin for that matter). It's what has been regularly described, at least on B&C, as 'dog Latin'. As long as it sounds cool and follows the rough conventions GW has built over the years (for example, the Tempestus part purely relates to the Segmentum, rather than any implied meaning), then anything is good to go. The fact that High Gothic is sometimes legitimate Latin only tends to muddy the waters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Makes a bit more sense now. Still while descriptive, Star soldiers sounds a bit, well, childish. I'll be keeping the old names alive, because that's what I 've known them as for years, and that's not going to change just because GW decided they wanted something the could trademark... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stofficus Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I viewed the name change is a bad choice on many levels for GW. 1) Imperial Guard is iconic. If you google "Imperial Guard" you get Cadians, Napoleon's Old Guard, Palpatine's "Royal Guard" from Starwars and a few woodblock prints of the Japanese Imperial Guard. The cadians greatly outnumber all the others in image hits. 40k's Imperial Guard are known beyond the immediate 40k community, at least on some basic level. Mention "Astra Militarum" and they say "Bless you" 2) It undermines their own legal wars. GW loves to send C&D letters to people who mention things are compatible with the Imperial Guard range. Now there's no such thing as an Imperial Guard range, but everyone still refers to the Guard as what it is, so every aftermarket producer can be quite clear with no fear of GW. Hell, someone could make a whole line of "Sci-Fi Imperial Guard" and GW couldn't do anything in any way unless they were direct copies of their own ranges. (Though I'd kill for properly proportioned Cadians)3) It sounds stupid. Seriously. Yeah, it doesn't need to be proper latin, but it sounds like especially bad fan fiction - we already had a faux-latin name anyways, the Departmento Munitorum, and such a simple name as "Munitions Department" makes perfect sense for the Imperium's overly bureaucratic approach to strategic decisions and military doctrine. Astra Militarum is unprecedented, doesn't fit the existing naming conventions (If you really must, Adeptus Militarum, Adeptus Auxilia, Adeptus Praetorii, anything with Adeptus and something military sounding would fit much better with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, etc, etc). It was the Imperial Guard when I first discovered the Imperial Guard, and it will always be the Imperial Guard (and the Stormtroopers/Kasrkin/Grenadiers with Stormtrooper Sergeants not, bleargh, "Tempestors" and "tempestor primes," what's wrong with sane ranks for the pseudo-realistic military? Marines get Sergeants and Captains at least!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graymane Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 *Plants flag* My Cadians were born guard and they they will die guard. Imperial Guard - accept no substitutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoic Raptor Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Still while descriptive, Star soldiers sounds a bit, well, childish. No more childish than "Space Marines", in my opinion (especially since "Space Marine" is redundant in a setting where the only naval infantry is spaceborne). They simply want to give these branches more formal-sounding names. (If you really must, Adeptus Militarum, Adeptus Auxilia, Adeptus Praetorii, anything with Adeptus and something military sounding would fit much better with Adeptus Astartes, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, etc, etc). But these soldiers are not adepts - they are rank-and-file (in many cases conscripted). For most, it is not a career of choice. They're warm bodies with guns, soon to be dead bodies with guns in most cases. The only thing they are generally "adept" at is winning a war of attrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I see no problem with the name "Astra Militarum" for the over-branch of the Imperial Forces. Remember, if you read the Codex, we're still the Imperial Guard. That's why I've had no problem with the new name as it says in black and white that we're still called the Guard. The newly (well, newish) combined Departmento Handbook and Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer- The Imperial Infantryman's Handbook- only deals with the Imperial Guard. I know it is basically two older books pressed together but they could have just selected all the entries for "Imperial Guard" and switched it to "Astra Militarum" if they wanted. If we want to get technical sounding, the new name translates to "Military of Space/the Stars". The same with Militarum Tempestus being "Storm Military" or even "Great Storm Military". Church Latin, we meet again ! Getting too technical with this game will drive you bonkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 It was something that I ran across that drove me up a wall. Mehman, your mention that it still calls us Imperial Guard in the Codex (something which I had overlooked, or not noticed), allows me to take heart, and gives me warm fuzzies inside. Space Marines did always sound childish, and as far back as I go (3rd edition or so), they have been formally named the Adeptus Astartes, while space marine was the informal name. Anyway, if Astra Militarum did refer to the Imperium's armed forces as a whole, why does the book only include the Guard (though the thought of a combined book of the armies of the imperium makes my head spin)? Guard For Life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Makes a bit more sense now. Still while descriptive, Star soldiers sounds a bit, well, childish. I'll be keeping the old names alive, because that's what I 've known them as for years, and that's not going to change just because GW decided they wanted something the could trademark... Star soldiers does sound childish, hence Astra militarum. You'd be surprised how many real world translations sound silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Space Marines did always sound childish, and as far back as I go (3rd edition or so), they have been formally named the Adeptus Astartes, while space marine was the informal name. Anyway, if Astra Militarum did refer to the Imperium's armed forces as a whole, why does the book only include the Guard (though the thought of a combined book of the armies of the imperium makes my head spin)? I believe you answered your own question, Ulrik. That would be a thick Codex. It could be cool, but just unrealistic in scope. To give a few examples: Planetary Defense Forces (PDFs), the Imperial Navy (I believe is in with the Astra Militarum- could be wrong about that), and then differently technologically categorized planets' ground forces (not including PDFs). We're talking about a tome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Oh, yeah, definitely. It was more rhetorical than anything. I suppose the PDF's might use very similar equipment and organization to the Imperial Guard, so that would be rolled up in there, and the fliers belong to the navy, so that would be under the Whole Military too. So I guess it's a more inclusive title, that covers more than Just the Imperial Guard. I'd not really thought about it that way. I think something like Militarum Imperialis would have been better, if you loosely translate Militarum as militia or military, instead of soldiers. I think that would have summed up the book better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The Navy is a separate entity to the Guard, and wouldn't do much in 40k anyway. Unless you wanted your games to consist of telling your opponent your orbital fleet just obliterated his ground forces which doesn't sound very fun The name changes are purely IP related, as "Imperial Guard" isn't something GW can copyright. Which is why you'll find the armies officially named in high gothic (dog/cat/etc latin) but mentioned normally otherwise. That's really all there is to it. As for the language, it's a good idea not to worry too much about 40k's basis in reality. It's more science fantasy so trying to make sense of it leads only to madness Besides isn't that better, means we can create our own backgrounds and more without having to learn Latin or worry about science ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 They're warm bodies with guns, soon to be dead cold bodies with guns in most cases. The only thing they are generally "adept" at is winning a war of attrition. Fixed that I don't care...I still talk about the hellguns my kasrkin are toting around, which is pretty moronic of me, since they retconned "hellgun" before they introduced "kasrkin," but whatever. It's still somewhat a free country, so long as you don't express a political opinion that contradicts the lunacy being piped into young minds on our university campuses, use whatever terminology you want. I had a problem with "astartes" for my first few years in the hobby (what, are they some kind of vestal virgins or something?!?), but I got over it. As long as GW doesn't have its staff correcting you when you say "stormtrooper" or ban demiurg terminators from the premises, there's not really a whole lot to complain about. The Navy is a separate entity to the Guard, and wouldn't do much in 40k anyway. Unless you wanted your games to consist of telling your opponent your orbital fleet just obliterated his ground forces which doesn't sound very fun Are you kidding? Croaking my opponent from orbit with the strike cruiser "righteous indignation" sounds like loads of fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 The navy sounds like an I win button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 High gothic and low gothic naming from the setting. And it gave us the astra milliwut? joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The one that bothers me is the Skitarii. If it's pronounced to rhyme with "starry", why are there a double-I on the end? How would "Skitari" be pronounced differently? It's silly, especially since "Skitarius" is the singular. It's better if it's pronounced "skit-are-ee-eye", closer to the way Latin would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoic Raptor Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 If Skitarius is the singular, then Skitarii is the proper plural - or, at least if they are following Latin-style declensions. And it would be pronounced "Ski-TAR-ee-ee". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Senpai Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The navy sounds like an I win button. And cheap to field too! Just go out and buy a trash can lid as your blast marker and you're all set. 2000+ point games and you're allowed to 'field' ships who's rules consist of "Flip table. All enemy units no longer on table are removed from play as casualties." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The navy sounds like an I win button. And cheap to field too! Just go out and buy a trash can lid as your blast marker and you're all set. 2000+ point games and you're allowed to 'field' ships who's rules consist of "Flip table. All enemy units no longer on table are removed from play as casualties." "And you can stomp on them." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 My army consists of a single Officer of the fleet. His job is to troll the opponent while you simply remove the opponents models by the bucketfull... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 If Skitarius is the singular, then Skitarii is the proper plural - or, at least if they are following Latin-style declensions. And it would be pronounced "Ski-TAR-ee-ee" I'm not complaining about the pluralisation, just to be clear. That the singular is "Skitarius" is part of my argument that "skit-are-ee" is the wrong pronunciation. I disagree about the pronunciation of the double-I, though. Julii is "jule-ee-eye", for instance, not "jule-ee-ee". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 So how do we say Pompeii ? No, I joke. Call it "destroyed", I don't care. I do agree on Skitarii and the "-ee-eye" pronunciation. I didn't sit through Greek and Latin classes for nothing. Well, I guess I did, really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 I would love to know latin. The Skitarii are intriguing, but I wonder what their name is supposed to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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