[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[GreyCrow]

So, with the limited information, what do you guys think about the Ultra special stuff ? :D

Edited May 27, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Slips]

Would you mind linking to the +1S to shooting? I havent read that anywhere from the leaks weve gotten so far.

[GreyCrow]

This website said it : http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marine_Legion_List_%2830k%29#XIII_Legion:_Ultramarines (click on the "Expand" button on the right top corner).

 

If I'm breaching any rule, please feel free to delete that link and accept my apologies.

[Slips]

Thanks for the link. Id like to trust 1d4 on this but it wasnt mentioned anywhere in the other leaks weve gotten and its a VERY powerful ability.

 

Edit: read the post. Its +1 to wound or pen rolls. Its almost +1S but not quite since your still get FNP vs S7 and it doesnt change the ID threshold. Its good but not as good as +1S

Edited May 19, 2015 by Slipstreams

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the link. Id like to trust 1d4 on this but it wasnt mentioned anywhere in the other leaks weve gotten and its a VERY powerful ability.

 

So far, the rest of the 1d4 chan leaks fit the other ones in the Warhammer World thread in Age of Darkness. A few have reported "bonuses to shooting on unit already fired at by other Ultramarines LA", but remained quiet for the specifics ^^ 

 

It is indeed a very powerful ability, I'm liking it a lot, but it requires some pretty solid list building to make a logistical chain of support between units worthwhile and functionning on the battlefield !

[Slips]

Edited my post but just in case: read the post. Its +1 to wound or pen rolls. Its almost +1S but not quite since your still get FNP vs S7 and it doesnt change the ID threshold. Its good but not as good as +1S

[GreyCrow]

Edited my post but just in case: read the post. Its +1 to wound or pen rolls. Its almost +1S but not quite since your still get FNP vs S7 and it doesnt change the ID threshold. Its good but not as good as +1S

 

Ah, they did update the wiki then ! I've edited the OP to avoid confusion, thanks for pointing it out !

[Slips]

No problem!

 

For the time being, Ill refrain from posting any "tactical Insight" since I dont have the book yet since Id like to read them over myself and give it some time for a clear picture to coalesce.

[UltraCaptain]

I am not sute if the Ultramarine specify "rerolling other Ultramarine has shot at" as an unit in the Ultramarine army, or a unit with Legion Astares Ultramarines. If it is the first, then this bonus is also activated from transport vehicle's weapon, such as tl-bolters on rhino and drop pods. They would be able to activate the rerolling bonus for their unit, quite nasty. I am not sure what is intended here.

 

Other than that, I am not sure what is quite intended. They are just marines with extra USR and bonus leadership. Nothing is quite a focus point for tactics imo.

[Slips]

I am not sute if the Ultramarine specify "rerolling other Ultramarine has shot at" as an unit in the Ultramarine army, or a unit with Legion Astares Ultramarines. If it is the first, then this bonus is also activated from transport vehicle's weapon, such as tl-bolters on rhino and drop pods. They would be able to activate the rerolling bonus for their unit, quite nasty. I am not sure what is intended here.

 

Other than that, I am not sure what is quite intended. They are just marines with extra USR and bonus leadership. Nothing is quite a focus point for tactics imo.

The Re-rolling rule is part of their Legiones Astartes and probably only applies to marines with LA:UM since they would only know to work so well with other Brother Legionnaires; not cousins from other Legion.

[UltraCaptain]

That is fair :-) also what i expect. You just sometimes see things include tanks, such as iron hands.

[ThatOneMarshal]

So just reading some of the ultramarine rules it's not a good idea to run a death star against them. Have a small tactical squad fire at them then a big tactical squad or heavy ordnance fire at the squad. Also nice for things like the wraith knights and other 40k scary units especially well paired with a destroyer squad. "What's that? I'm sorry I'm wounding your wraith knight on 2+ with my middle launcher".

 

I would imagine that a few fast jump pack squads are good to take tie up squads so that your other squads can benefit.

 

Ultras seem to be pretty interesting.

[hivey]

taking guilliman kind of lets you use two rites of war. you can use the normal one his master of the legion rules allows, then you have his special rule that makes the special UM guys troops, which is similar to pride of the legion.

Edited May 20, 2015 by hivey

[GreyCrow]

So just reading some of the ultramarine rules it's not a good idea to run a death star against them. Have a small tactical squad fire at them then a big tactical squad or heavy ordnance fire at the squad. Also nice for things like the wraith knights and other 40k scary units especially well paired with a destroyer squad. "What's that? I'm sorry I'm wounding your wraith knight on 2+ with my middle launcher".

 

I would imagine that a few fast jump pack squads are good to take tie up squads so that your other squads can benefit.

 

Ultras seem to be pretty interesting.

 

Very true, I can definitely see an Assault Squad used to take care of incoming units while the rest of the army deals with other squads. It's a bit of a shame that you can't Deep Strike them with the Ultras' ROW however, so it might be preferable to go for Outrider Squads instead that have similar mobility but can Outflank if you go for the Rite of War.

Which is also why I find this RoW mind boggling : it even prevents you from using the new Ultra JP unit that gets bonuses when you Deep Strike ! But oh well...

 

 

taking guilliman kind of lets you use two rites of war. you can use the normal one his master of the legion rules allows, then you have his special rule that makes the special UM guys troops, which is similar to pride of the legion.

 

Excellent point, I was thinking about that too !

Edited May 20, 2015 by GreyCrow

[GreyCrow]

So, so far it's pretty confirmed that Ultramarines have "Interlocking Tactics" : units shooting at units already shot by the army (the first shooter doesn't need to have the Legiones special rule) rerolls, as well as if a unit from the army is locked in combat, models with the Legiones Astartes rule reroll to charge.

 

Interestingly enough, that puts in place a "lead by example" feel to the army. Indeed, I think the opening Salvo would benefit the most from being done by the highest quality shot, without or without Legiones Astartes, then "lesser" quality shots with a higher volume of fire would benefit from the Interlocking Tactics because they might get some rerolls. I say lesser quality shots, what I mean by that is shots that would do the same job, but on a 4-5+ instead of 2+ for instance. The key caracteristic of these lower quality shots would be to have a high volume of fire, so that more 1s would be rolled.

 

The units that seem to synergize the most with Interlocking Tactics seem to be the Contemptor Dreadnoughts ! With BS5 and high quality weapons, they're great for the opening salvo. With Fleet, they already have a reroll to the charge distance ! They are mobile enough, resilient enough and with sufficient range for the most part that they can get to shoot at the unit that is marked for death. What's fun is that the Logos Lectora hints at the use of the Dreadnoughts as well :D I don't have Tempest yet, but can anyone confirm if it's Legion Dreadnoughts only or Contemptors as well that benefit in the Logos Lectora ?

 

In terms of logistical chain between units, I can defo see the following :

- Shooting at vehicles (AV11 in that example) : Open up with Lascannon Contemptor, follow up with Plasma Support Squad or Volkite Caliver Support Squad boosted to BS5 by the MOS --> Dead Rhino.

- Shooting at Infantry : Open up with Volkite Culverin/Plasma Blaster/Keres Contemptor, follow up with Bolter Fire boosted to BS5.

- Assaulting : Charge in with the Contemptor to soak up overwatch, follow up with melee squad.

 

Obviously, for critical attacks, the opposite could be done with a squad that does the job on a 2+ boosted to BS5 by a Master of Signal. Contemptor shoots first, then BS5 rerolling 1s to wound/pen.

It works obviously, but I think it's overkill compared to boosting weaker weaponry with a higher rate of fire. Plus, it's no army wide preferred enemy from Alpharius for example !

[Hesh Kadesh]

how's this for a list, around 2k

 

Guilliman = 400pts

 

Grav Rapiers x2 = 150pts

 

Suzerain Squad, Phobos

Suzerain Squad, Phobos

 

Land Raider Battle Squadron, 3x Proteus, all with Armoured Ceramite, Command Tank = 685pts

 

Not sure on points, but basically revolves around the Land Raider Battle Squadron taking Implacable Advance and scoring while being near impervious to harm. Guilliman just kills things, jumping out with the two Suzerains from their Assault Transport (because despite him not being especially killy, he's still got 6 S7 attacks on the charge). The Grav Rapiers plink wounds off heavier vehicles, and the two Suzerains also kill things a lot.

[xera32]

Your firepower is very low, and any army that can reliable down a spartan will dismantle your army over 5 turns. Also as the land raiders are in a squadron, they can only every hold 1 objective even if you could reach multiple.

You are better using Roboute's rule on things that are cheap to field and effective (dreadnoughts, rhinos, drop pods, rapiers). An orbital assault army with all the drop pods scoring would be a right pain in the ass as you can no longer ignore the pods, dreadnoughts on mass work well, but suffer from not scoring, rhinos are cheap and effective and are a staple in armoured companies.

[Stofficus]

I've been thinking (re: had an epiphany while washing dishes), what about an Ultra dread-head list? 

Their RoW specifically works on Dreads, so load up on Contemptors, Deredeos and such and they gain BS2 overwatch, counter attacks or re-roll runs. Throw in Guilliman to give like dreadnoughts Implacable Advance or Tank Hunter and you could have a rather fine force of giant stompy robots. Keep him in some raider-mounted Suzerains and you've got a good melee shock force while the dreads provide heavy fire support - or the Fulmentari for more expensive but absolutely lethal fire support as well. 

I might play around with some lists, see what I come up with. 

[GreyCrow]

I do think Contemptors will be interesting with Legion Ultras !

Open up against the target, give rerolls to the rest if the army (because apparently the original shooter doesn't need to have LA Ultras).

Ensure a charge with fleet to give rerolls to the rest of the army.

[Frostmourne]

I'm finding this Rite of War very difficult to utilise. Could just be me though..

[GreyCrow]

I'm finding this Rite of War very difficult to utilise. Could just be me though..

I think this Rite of War is a "might as well use it" ROW. If the Firce you had in mind had 3 Troops, a couple of Dreads and no Deep Strike/Infiltrate as well as a MOS, you might as well pick it over no Rite of War :)

It does provide boost to a strong board présence and a "tactical" advance (aka you move up, secure the perimeter, move up, secure, etc).

 

It's more defensive than offensive however, but it's not meant to bunker up imho. It's meant for a cautions advance usine lots of vanilla choices and few Ultramarines units except perhaps the Fulmentarus or the Suzerains.

Edited May 31, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Kossaka]

Unfortunately I can't afford to pick up Tempest till I get situated in my new job. But what are people's reaction to the special units. From what I've read they have a FA, Elite and a HS slot special unit which I think is really cool, makes it so you can take other options without worrying about cramping other slots. I'm just wondering how they would all interact with eachother and what do the bring to the table when compared to equivalents of other legions. Do any of them suffer from Justaerin syndrome? (Sorry SoH).

 

I'm not really digging the ROW because of how it limits deployment options, and makes it so you are missing out on one of the rules for the storm squad. But I REALLY like how the UM are about a lot of diffrent units working together and becoming more powerful when units support one another, more than other legions.

 

(Typed on my phone, please exuse any errors)

[depthcharge12]

Has anyone run the Locutarus Storm squad with plasma pistols and deep striked? The plasma pistols would be effectively a double tap, and if you had a Damocles, you could place them wherever you want in that bubble.

[GreyCrow]

The Locutarus does sound interesting but you can only take 1 plasma pistol per 5 + the sergeant. Still, that's 4 plasma shots and 8 bolt shots on the turn they arrive which is always good !

 

So, a friend finally received his copy of Tempest and I managed to read all through the Ultra section this weekend ! One thing that is clear both in the fluff, the description of Legiones Astartes and the special Rite of War (needing an extra compulsory Troops without giving is that the Ultramarines are the most numerous Legion and that they take that to their advantage. It is clear that this army was designed for a massed amount of bodies on the table that cooperate with one another. And in addition to that, a high number of units in order to maximize targeting options.

The description of their Interlocking Tactics even says : "For many years, they have been accorded as being the mosts numerous of the Space Marines Legions and, under their Primarch, they have forged a significant range of tactical doctrines which hone their unity and strength in numbers to lethal advantage".

 

In the end, it seems most efficient to run a large number of min squads, supported by a few very powerful, very costly, very specialized units.

 

Like others have mentionned, the Logos Lectora is very limiting in terms of Rite of War because it is very rigid, but I feel it's one of the ROW that synchronize the best with their Legiones Astartes rules : large number of Troops are required, can't infiltrate or deep strike, Dreadnoughts are favoured, no more tanks than they have infantry.

Once again, the three rules that you can choose from at the beginning of your turn synchronize well with a large number of bodies and a large number of shots (particularly BS2 Snap Shots and Counter Attack). So, what they lose in offensive/movement capabilities due to lack of Deployment options, they make up for in their ability to negate part of the enemy's strength.

 

So, overall, it's a pretty vanilla army that gets its strength from very large numbers basically, and the higher the ability of the player is to maintain these numbers, the better the army will perform over a game.

[Monkeychunks]

I wouldn't say that you need large numbers of squads, so much as you need expendable shooting to mark up targets before dropping the 'real' firepower. I'd still stick to big squads and chunky discounts, and simply get your targetting shots from units more suited to saturating an area with firepower.

 

Like Deathstorms.

 

Reliable reserves, reliable landing. Carpet bomb everything with frag templates. Every unit you just hit is now marked. The conditions for 'marking' a unit are far more lenient than the rules to benefit from it. If it's blue and it hit something, it's probably marked. This applied to snapshots, templates and blasts just fine.

So Turn 1, DPA a Deathstorm into them and let rip. Then unload your sea of cheap Tacticals into them.

Turn 2, reserve-roll a second Deathstorm and repeat.

Admittedly it doesn't work with the Logos, but frankly I'm not very impressed with that one anyway.