Pride of the Legion ROW

[GreyCrow]

Hello guys !

 

So, with the upcoming release of the Space Marines Codex, I'm preparing to switch to a heresy army in case things aren't to my liking and thus finally get in the Heresy !

 

The way I've looked at Legiones Astartes rules and Rites of War was the following : While Legiones Astartes display the particular gene tendencies of a specific Legion, Rites of War seem to represent the particular specialties of a force under the command of a Praetor rather than Legion wide strategies.

 

I'm particularly interested by the Pride of the Legion Rite of War, both because it would please my wallet and because I'd love to play an Elite heavy force over regular infantry forces. I've read however that it was a particularly risky ROW to play due to low model count.

 

I was curious as to what were your experiences with Pride of the Legion, how you capitalized on its strengths and how you mitigated its weaknesses.

 

Cheers !

[Slips]

Pride of the Legion is the RoW I play the most; Mainly because I don't have multiple 15-20 man Tac Blobs and Because 10 Man Tac vets with 2HB and the Sniper USR + IF Legion rules make for a Potent combination.

 

...Also, I have 50 something Terminators.

 

Now, Pride is, I feel, one of the more flexible RoWs and has an appropriate Downside in that for every Tac Vet / Termy Squad wiped out, the enemy gains a VP.

 

Its flexibility comes in mostly through the wide array of Wargear Terminators and Tac Vets have access to; more so with the Tac Vets since you can choose to give them a specific special rule on a squad per squad basis. Giving you more options on how you want to specialize your units.

 

But you pay for that flexibility in very low model count, points-dense units. Ex: Tac Vets and Terminator Squads can never number more than 10 and, fully geared up will usually cost in the 260+ Point Range; equivalent to a 20 Man Tac Blob and if any of them were to get wiped out, enemy gains a bonus VP.

 

Since a few of these units come with "implacable advance" making them scoring if they otherwise weren't eligible to be so, selected as troops, you could argue that they gain "super scoring" and thus become objective secured...its wonky.

 

 

But yeah..for someone wanting to get started with 30k Gaming, POTL is probably the most wallet friendly option due to the aforementioned Points-density and low model count

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the reply man !

 

Just a quick question regarding Objective Secured in Age of Darkness army lists : None of the units have Objective Secured from the Age of Darkness detachment, but every one is scoring, right ? Or everything isn't scoring except Troops or Implacable advance ? (I have the Crusade Army list book and it doesn't mention what is scoring or not :/ )

 

Also, I thought that only if the enemy killed all Veterans or Terminators then he gets an extra VP, over an extra VP per squad. Was that FAQd ?

 

___

 

I'd love if you could elaborate on the flexibility and the Veteran Tactics if you please. Do you gear squads for specific jobs to synchronize with Veteran Tactics or do you keep them relatively flexible then pick the appropriate Veteran Tactic for the job ? How do you usually look at Terminator/Veteran repartition in the list ?

And finally, how do you support these units ?

 

Sorry, that's a lot of questions :p

[Slips]

Thanks for the reply man !

Just a quick question regarding Objective Secured in Age of Darkness army lists : None of the units have Objective Secured from the Age of Darkness detachment, but every one is scoring, right ? Or everything isn't scoring except Troops or Implacable advance ? (I have the Crusade Army list book and it doesn't mention what is scoring or not :/ )

Also, I thought that only if the enemy killed all Veterans or Terminators then he gets an extra VP, over an extra VP per squad. Was that FAQd ?

___

I'd love if you could elaborate on the flexibility and the Veteran Tactics if you please. Do you gear squads for specific jobs to synchronize with Veteran Tactics or do you keep them relatively flexible then pick the appropriate Veteran Tactic for the job ? How do you usually look at Terminator/Veteran repartition in the list ?

And finally, how do you support these units ?

Sorry, that's a lot of questions

For scoring purposes, its 6th ed style. Only troops or scoring or units with a special provision to do so. However, my group and a lot of others use 7th style where everybody scores.

Veteran Killing, its all of them. I made a tiny mistake.

I specialize my Tac Vets. Mostly giving them Sniper with Heavy Bolters & Bolters as Standard for Bs5 Shooting and always wounding things on a 4+ with Ap2 on 6's to wound.

Your Tac Vet USRs are: Fearless, Sniper, Furious Charge, Outflank and Tank Hunters.

• Fearless: Useful if you want them to be Forward Objective Cappers / Play Vs Night Lords a lot.
• Sniper: Probably the best one if you want to keep the unit cheap and able to threaten any non-tank target.
• Furious Charge: Since any Vet can take Twin LC or a Power Weapon, you can make them into a scary Assault Unit and since they all have 2A Base...
• Tank Hunters: Most Meh of the Bunch and since they have Squad Wide Melta Bombs and these already have Armorbane, its not that useful.
• Outflank: its outflank.. make of that what you will

They have 1 in 5 Options for:

• Volkite Charger. not that worth it due to 15" range
• Melta Gun. useful for Doubling out FNP and dealing with armor in a pinch, not that useful outside of that
• Plasma Gun. With Sniper, they arent that useful but, its a plasma gun.
• Heavy Flamer. It works with Sniper and gains +1S if used by a Salamander or Shred by Death Guard. Decent option for "Danger Close" squads. Since all Template Weapons in ZM gain Shred Free or gain +1S if they already have it, Salamanders and Death Guard options become very potent.
• Heavy Bolter with Suspensor Web. Either Heavy 3 36" or Assault 3 18". Best used with Sniper for more weight of Fire.
• Missile Launcher (frag and Krak base of +10pt for Flakk). Decent option.

They also come stock with Chainsword or Combat Blade, Bolt Pistol and Grenades. 3A each on the Charge + no penalty for Charging through Terrain.

Take into account various Legion Astartes buffs and you can see how potent the unit can become with certain Combos.

[GreyCrow]

Interesting points man, I'll be sure to keep them in mind ! I completely forgot about the 2+1+1 attacks, that makes them very potent should they charge in a pinch ! As a side note, do you usually give out Power Weapons on them (a few here and there) ? With 4 Attacks on the charge, that is kind of nasty when coupled with Furious Charge :o

 

Regarding Terminators, I assume that if you keep your Vets shooty, then you make the Termis a bit more CC oriented ?

[Slips]

Interesting points man, I'll be sure to keep them in mind ! I completely forgot about the 2+1+1 attacks, that makes them very potent should they charge in a pinch ! As a side note, do you usually give out Power Weapons on them (a few here and there) ? With 4 Attacks on the charge, that is kind of nasty when coupled with Furious Charge

Regarding Terminators, I assume that if you keep your Vets shooty, then you make the Termis a bit more CC oriented ?

I dont, really, apart from the Sarge.

Our Terminators are a bit more Flexible since theres no thing as Assault and Tactical Terminators.

Since they all come with Power weapon + Combi-Bolter Standard and the option for 1 in 5 to take a Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon or a Heavy Flamer (+ Illastus Assault Cannon due to IF) you can gear them up to deal with almost any situation, much like the vets.

Since its a Power weapon they come standard with, it can be: Sword, Axe or Maul. And since its a Combi-Bolter, at 12" its 2 Shots twin-linked unlike a Storm Bolter. With Relentless to boot, you can still charge afterwards.

• Gearing them up with Mauls/Swords and 1 heavy Flamer per 5 (2 per 10), makes them a decent way to deal with 3+ or Weaker Blobs.
• Giving them Plasma Blasters and Axes (To keep them Cheap, I'll get back to their Other Options), makes them a Decent Threat to TEQs since the Blasters are Assault 2 18" Plasma Guns.
• Reapers are good for when you have to Footslog them and need more Shots down range as they move up.

Other Weapon Options include:

• Combi-Weapons (any combi-bolter can be swapped)
• Volkite Charger. Coupled with the Above Swords/Maul + Flamer Build, these Assaul 2, 15" Deflagrate Weapons will clear Hordes Fast.
• Standard Pair of Lightning Claws. Any Termy can swap both weapons for them.
• Chain Fist. You can have 10 Chain Fists in the Squad if you wanted to. Knee-cap a knight like nobodies business or turn a spartan into scrap.
• Power Fist. With FNP being Readily accessible and 2 Wound Terminators (Legion Specific) running around, ID'ing and Denying FNP would be a smart move.
• Single Lightning Claw. A power Sword with Shred. Only costs a Melta Bomb so, if you have the points, its a Decent option for a Squad on MEQ and Weaker Blob Duty while not having to sacrifice their shooting.
• Thunderhammer. See the Power Fist. Concussive isn't that useful except for when your facing a Primarch. Getting them to swing at initiative is probably the most effective way of taking them out in CC without a Primarch of your Own.

Another thing to consider is Cataphractii. Its a free swap that turns the base 5++ into a 4++ but Straddles you with Slow and Purposeful.

Either turn a Cataphractii Squad into a Slow-moving, Shooty squad that has a Decent chance of weathering return fire or Stuff them into a Spartan or other Assault vehicle and make use of that 4++ to survive in Ap2 Combat.

They do lose Overwatch so I wouldnt use this suit to deal with Blobs and the like since you cant Wall of Flame with Flamers at that point.

Then theres the Legion Specific Terminators. I made a Long post about them a while back in a thread talking specifically about terminators, shouldn't be too hard to find.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks a lot man for the detailed breakdown and the interesting builds ! I'll check out your thread to get more information on specific units :)

 

So much builds available in Legiones compared to 40k, this is amazing :D

[Slips]

Thanks a lot man for the detailed breakdown and the interesting builds ! I'll check out your thread to get more information on specific units

So much builds available in Legiones compared to 40k, this is amazing

I found the topic:http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299162-terminator-wing-armies/?hl=terminator&do=findComment&comment=3900723

[GreyCrow]

Very interesting !

 

So far, if I was going with a Pride of the Legion, I'd be looking either at the Alpha Legion or the Ultramarines. I can't wait to get your insight on the Fulmentarus once the rules are more accessible !

[Slips]

Very interesting !

 

So far, if I was going with a Pride of the Legion, I'd be looking either at the Alpha Legion or the Ultramarines. I can't wait to get your insight on the Fulmentarus once the rules are more accessible !

Still waiting for my book @_@

[SkimaskMohawk]

@Slipstreams Why would you use the 7th ed scoring system? HH was balanced around only specific units being able to score; there's no incentive to take more the minimum troop choices. It also lets you have a shot at coming back; you kill their scoring units and pull out the tie. 

[Slips]

@Slipstreams Why would you use the 7th ed scoring system? HH was balanced around only specific units being able to score; there's no incentive to take more the minimum troop choices. It also lets you have a shot at coming back; you kill their scoring units and pull out the tie. 

Mostly a taste thing. We always max out our Heavy Support Slots with Tanks and rarely ever use anything in Fast Attack. Meaning most of the bodies in our lists come from Troops and Elites.

 

So for us, it barely changes anything just makes the game feel less stupid when one of our tanks is parked on top of an objective but its somehow not considered as captured by our army.

 

Edit: It also is even less of an impact for me since I run Pride of the Legion 99% of the time. Usually have 3-5 Troops selections at that point since they free up Elites Slots for me to take more stuff out of that Contested Slot.

[Hesh Kadesh]

@Slipstreams Why would you use the 7th ed scoring system? HH was balanced around only specific units being able to score; there's no incentive to take more the minimum troop choices. It also lets you have a shot at coming back; you kill their scoring units and pull out the tie.

'balanced'

 

It borrowed the 6th edition style of play and stuck with it. 6th edition was horrendousband serves as little more than prealpha footage for 7th edition.

 

That FW keep with it make the game boring and penalise you rather than benefit you.

 

IMHO? Ignore the scoring rules and play with 7th edition. (and remove the transport limitation on allies - and the allies system in general for AoD. The sooner a decurion/warhost style of detachment and formation approach is adopted the better)

[hivey]

Very interesting !

 

So far, if I was going with a Pride of the Legion, I'd be looking either at the Alpha Legion or the Ultramarines. I can't wait to get your insight on the Fulmentarus once the rules are more accessible !

fulmentarus terminators cant be taken as troops in a pride of the legion list. only terminators that are originally in the elites slot can be taken as troops, and the UM termies are heavy support.

[GreyCrow]

 

Very interesting !

 

So far, if I was going with a Pride of the Legion, I'd be looking either at the Alpha Legion or the Ultramarines. I can't wait to get your insight on the Fulmentarus once the rules are more accessible !

fulmentarus terminators cant be taken as troops in a pride of the legion list. only terminators that are originally in the elites slot can be taken as troops, and the UM termies are heavy support.

 

 

Thanks for the precision, I assumed as much based on their loadout ! I'm wondering about their support capability in a POTL ROW list though

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

@Slipstreams Why would you use the 7th ed scoring system? HH was balanced around only specific units being able to score; there's no incentive to take more the minimum troop choices. It also lets you have a shot at coming back; you kill their scoring units and pull out the tie.

'balanced'

 

It borrowed the 6th edition style of play and stuck with it. 6th edition was horrendousband serves as little more than prealpha footage for 7th edition.

 

That FW keep with it make the game boring and penalise you rather than benefit you.

 

IMHO? Ignore the scoring rules and play with 7th edition. (and remove the transport limitation on allies - and the allies system in general for AoD. The sooner a decurion/warhost style of detachment and formation approach is adopted the better)

 

 

It penalizes cynical list building and turtling; boring is subjective because I find having the ability to pressure my opponent's ability to score more fun than everything getting to score. 6th definitely had issues with scoring (like vehicles not being able to contest) but FW changed that so its a more thought out system.

 

FW has also done a good job of avoiding the cancer of formations and staying with an oldschool FOC that forces meaningful choices. Creating a decurion/warhost detachment would make RoWs irrelevant at that point.

 

Basically 30k reminds me of the better parts of 5th and took away the biggest negative; parking on objectives with vehicles to score. 

 

Slipstreams mentioned they don't like it when their tanks in their backline can't score, but that's the whole point of only troops scoring; forcing meaningful decisions in army building and in game.

[Hesh Kadesh]

We will have to disagree on formations. They are the best things to happen to the game that lets weaker units improve without needing to wait for FAQ's or republication of £45 books in a second edition. A CAD is still an FoC as well.

 

And 'meaningful' is basically a false unit and model tax that inc reases the points of games artificially for no real purpose other than to sell models; which at £70 a unit is BAD for the game in that 300pts of an army and £140 is required to play a game that you don't autolose. It is a massive barrier to new blood to the game, and hence why Rites of War or options which remove the limitation on this are popular.

 

It is in all occurences poor game design. Objective Secured is much better way of encouraging this and makes troops meaningful. It is like eating veggies. We all know they're good for us, but some taste pretty minging. If they tasted like chocolate or ribs rsther than boiled cabbage, they'd be eaten much more. ObSec makes those vegetable troops taste like Chocolate.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You don't have to buy the FW models (or even buy the books) to play 30k lol, certainly it looks (subjectively) better but you can throw down your 20 bolter marines you already have. Or, you can get even more cynical with a delegatus w/ PoL and 2 five man vet squads; this is the cheapest way to fill out the compulsory requirements afaik; with 7th style you then load up on your favorite shooting units and garnish with whatever is OP in your local meta. Just camp on the backline objectives with whatever barrage you inevitably took and contest theirs with OS rhinos and kill their OS stuff with the aforementioned barrage.

 

Its interesting that you condemn  only troops scoring as a way to bolster sales on weak units, but you praise formations as they...also bolster sales on weak units. Both allow said weak unit to have more of an impact (troops can only score, better make sure I have more than 2; decurion is OP, better make sure I buy a box of tomb blades).

 

I'm not even arguing against OS actually, its against everything scoring.  Everything scoring results in extremely cynical list building. The irony is the OS and only troops function the exact same way; both incentivize troops as they get a bonus other units don't, it's just easier to win when everything scores.

 

To try and bring this slightly on topic; if op wants to use 7th style scoring then start with the delegatus (with pride) and 5 vets x2. This is a total of 325 and you're now free to take the more expensive toys that will do just as much work as your troops. If you want to annoy your opponent slightly more take decapitation strike and two ten man tac squads, the goal is to plop your pods onto objectives and force them to spend turns shooting them to claim the objectives; while 445pts  for your core it adds a lot more frustration to deal with and is still relatively cheap enough. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

What is the difference btween OS and Troops only scoring? Other than unnecesary points bloat.

 

As for vehicles, well don't know about you but a big tank pretty much secures an objective.

 

Troops scoring doesn't bolter weak units. It just makes them a points tax to take. It makes them no more effective at what they do. A bit like OS actually giving Rhinos a reason to be taken.

 

Check the Assault Squad. It is too expensive. Come up with a formation that lets them assault from deep strike reserve, and sudde ly they have a niche ability that can be pretty powerful. Just because as they stand currently they are troops only scoring doesn't make them anymore worthwhile to take. Don't confuse the issue or put words in my mouth, pleasse.

 

As to the above suggestion, if you want to play 7th, play 7th.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Troops scoring doesn't stop bad troops from being bad; the assault squad is bad regardless of it being one of the few units to score or not, as you said they cost too many points. I agree that troop scoring doesn't make the units themselves more effective, but it makes you make hard decisions about the power of your list (I said more of impact which doesn't necessarily mean being good). The point of rhinos; why take one anyways when pods are better with OS? In troop scoring you simply have to disembark; it forces you to take a risk.

 

How would that big tank not be able to secure an objective over an empty pod?

 

In a way you're completely right; troops only does tax you with suboptimal units; that's the point. You give up on more efficient units to be able to score. You're supposed to take risks at some point (same with actually getting out of a rhino to score, the horror).

 

With 7th there's this mentality of getting everything you want with no downsides; the best formations are the things you'd take anyways that then give great bonuses for no extra cost (tau firebase, new knight 3-5 one, reclamation legion, windrider host). 

 

TLDR: HH rules promote having to give up on the best units in order to score effectively (a meaningful choice). If I've learned anything its that its important to say how you're playing if you're looking for advice on units/RoWs as it changes drastically on whether if you go full 7th or HH

[Slips]

Thing I noticed in book 5. Theres a section on page 159 - 162 called "Updated Rules for battles in the age of darkness".

 

Granted, not much has changed BUT! one thing stuck out, the entry for "Denial Units"

 

Essentially, anything that isn't scoring (Troops, Implacable Advance) under standard AoD Rules instead denies scoring units from scoring if they're near an objective but they themselves do not count as scoring.

 

Changes very little (nothing, really) if you use 7th Ed Scoring but, if you're sticking with HH Scoring, then this is pretty important.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's really interesting, makes a coordinated push much more effective

[GreyCrow]

Well, it goes back to the 6th edition scoring rules then. I'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest if anything can deny, because granted you need a few troops from scoring, but if any unit can deny the troops, it's better to build around denial units that can do quite a bit of damage over scoring units that have low damage output.

[GreyCrow]

Just a quick question, do you guys think that a low model count is shooting oneself in the foot with Pride of the Legion lists ? I don't know much about the meta so far, but I was curious.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you want to do low model count I'd advise to think msu style; make them almost like 5 man tac sqads in rhinos with melta combi-melta/plasma combi-plasma. Depends entirely on your local groups armies . Msu is better for getting objectives and disrupting