335 replies to this topic

[Teetengee]

So with the advent of Decurion style metadetachments, a second new loyalist codex, and some pretty drastic changes within that loyalist codex, I have decided to write my own Chaos Codex. Right now it is very wip and mostly crunch (fluff descriptions of the various things and just whole fluff sections will come later). As an aside to GW, this is a complete rewrite based off of your IP but only loosely based off of any existing codex and therefore cannot be used to try to reverse engineer any GW product. I will make no money off of this creation, and I would love if some of these rules managed to make it into whatever Chaos codex comes out next.

 

This project is actually going to encompass several codices as the cult armies (including eventual cult terminators and splitting up the Daemons) and traitor guard both have enough material to create their own semi-supplemental books. I am starting with the baseline, the Traitors and Heretics, the Chaos Space Marines of Legion and Renegade fame.

 

There are a few main concepts that are being built around here. First every upgrade that a model is allowed to take should be useful in at least some way, and it should not overlap too much with other upgrades that model might also take. Chaos should reward aggressive playstyles and close in fighting, high risk, high reward. Chaos should be flexible, but fractious, they resent the control of the Imperium, but this affects their discipline (for most units). There are everything from recent recruits and geneclones to veterans of 10000 years of warfare, and all should be represented. Every unit should be useful in at least some lists. Chaos should be scary, providing enemies with tough choices about what to actually target and should ramp up pressure with each turn. Point costs should be neither prohibitively expensive or so inexpensive that a unit is an auto-select unit. I will definitely need help with the last one.

 

As an aside, I ask that anyone who can use this codex with their own groups please see if they will let you, I will be doing the same and in so doing hope to gain enough traction that this does not become a waste of time for others.

On to the dex itself.

Main crunch changes are the creation of Warp Legacies, changes in how some of the marks work (and interact with daemons), addition of strange and horrible weaponry, and the addition of stubborn almost codex wide.

HOW TO USE THIS CODEX: A GUIDE TO THE MADNESS
 

Here is what I have so far, still very much WIP:

Traitors and Heretics

Scholars and Madmen

Killers and Warriors

Ruiners and Defilers

Debauchees and Extremists

Warmachines and Auxiliaries

 

Renegade Legio

 

Miscellaneous Dataslates

Formations and Detachments

TOKENS

 

Also this project is designed to work alongside a modification to the Psychic disciplines, for better balance. Still WIP, but mostly usable I think.
Telepathy

Deamonology

 

 

Homebrew Thread that encompasses other armies as well.

Edited by Teetengee, 20 June 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[Teetengee]

Here are some more in depth sections of the major changes (EDIT: Some of these are slightly out of date due to revisions):
 

Warp Legacies

Each unit that has the Warp Legacy rule must select a rule from the following list along with their wargear. Some units and models will have a legacy already listed in their unit entry, in this case they always have the same legacy and may not choose another. All units without a set Warp Legacy rule in a single detachment must choose the same Warp Legacy rule.

 

Where Angels Fear To Tread: Models with this rule have the Fear and Night Vision special rules. While in cover, they gain Stealth. Any non-vehicle enemy unit within 12” of a model with this Warp Legacy that normally would automatically pass or not need to take morale checks must take morale checks on 2d6 as if they did not have such a rule. Additionally enemy units that would normally automatically regroup do not do so until they are more than 12” away from a model with this Warp Legacy.

 

Forbidden Knowledge: Psykers with this Warp Legacy add +1 to their dice when attempting to harness the warp. If an army’s warlord has this Warp Legacy add +1 to attempts to seize the initiative. Each time a non-vehicle unit entirely composed of models with this Warp Legacy identifies an objective you gain an additional victory point.

 

Tongues of the Serpent: Enemy units that begin their turn within 12” of a model with this Warp Legacy treat all friendly units as desperate allies for the purpose of the One Eye Open rule. You may choose to have all non-vehicle models with this Warp Legacy gain infiltrate, otherwise D3 units entirely composed of models with this Warp Legacy may be redeployed, including returning them to reserves, before the first player begins their first turn, immediately before either player decides whether to seize the initiative.

 

Crumbling Cities: Models with this Warp Legacy gain Tank Hunter and treat enemy cover saves as one worse.

 

Blood and Sand: Models with this Warp Legacy gain Rampage and Characters with this Warp Legacy gain Preferred Enemy(Characters) while in close combat.

 

Unforgivable Sins: Models with this Warp Legacy treat all template weapons they fire as poisoned 4+ . Non-vehicle models with this rule gain +1 to FnP, or if they do not have FnP gain FnP(6+).

 

Profane Alterations: For each unit with this Warp Legacy at the beginning of the game roll a d3 and give models with this Warp Legacy in that unit the ability as per the results below for the remainder of the game

1: The unit ignores the first unsaved wound it would take each turn if that wound would not cause instant death.

2: +1 A

3: +1 I

 

Arch-Heretics: Models with this Warp Legacy have the Hatred and Crusader special rules. Models with this Warp Legacy also reroll all to hit rolls in close combat against enemies from the Armies of the Imperium instead of just during the first turn of close combat.

 

Heralds of the Dark Gods:

At the beginning of the game roll a die for each unit that has this Warp Legacy. On a 6+ models with this Warp Legacy in that unit gain the Daemon special rule for the remainder of the battle. Additionally, at the beginning of each of your psychic phase roll 2d6 and consult the table:

2 The Storm Abates. Each unit containing a model with the Daemon special rule within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy must take a leadership test and suffer a wound for each point they fail by.

3 Punished by the Gods. Randomly select an independent character with the Daemon special rule within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy. That character takes a leadership test on 3d6 against their own leadership score and takes a wound for each point failed by.

4 Warp Ebb. Units with the Daemon special rule within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy reduce their invulnerable save by 1 until the beginning of your next psychic phase.

5 Storm of Fire. Roll a d6 for each enemy unit and each Nurgle Aligned unit within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy. On a 6+ that unit takes a S4 AP5 large blast hit with the Barrage and Ignore Cover special rule that rolls to scatter as normal. Vehicles are hit on the side armour.

6. Rot, Glorious Rot. Roll a d6 for each enemy unit and each Tzeentch Aligned unit within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy. On a 6+ that unit takes d6 S4 AP3 hits with poisoned (4+) and Ignores cover. Wounds are allocated by the unit’s controlling player. Vehicles are hit on the side armour.

7 The Warp is Calm. Nothing happens.

8 The Dark Prince Thirsts. Roll a d6 for each enemy unit and each Khorne Aligned unit within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy. On a 6+ that unit takes d6 S4 AP- hits with Rending and Ignores cover. Wounds are allocated by the unit’s controlling player. Vehicles are hit on the side armour.

9 Khorne’s Wrath. Roll a d6 for each enemy unit and each Slaanesh Aligned unit within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy. On a 6+ that unit takes a S8 AP3 small blast hit with the barrage special rule that scatters as normal. Vehicles are hit on the side armour.

10 Warp Surge. Units with the Daemon special rule within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy increase their invulnerable save by 1 until the beginning of your next psychic phase.

11 Psychic Backlash. Randomly select an enemy psyker within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy rule. That psyker takes a leadership test on 3d6 against their own leadership score and is removed from play if the test is failed with no saves of any kind allowed.

12 Warp Rift. Choose one unengaged enemy unit within 18” of a model with this Warp Legacy. That unit must take an initiative test or be put into Ongoing Reserve. They take a -1 penalty to that test for each unit entirely composed of models with this Warp Legacy within 6” of them to a maximum of -3, a 1 still always succeeds on the test.

Edited by Teetengee, 14 October 2015 - 12:03 AM.

[Lysimachus]

Not had a thorough look through, but some interesting ideas.

The IW style Legacy feels a little dull compared to some of the others? One thing I considered a while ago was introducing a modified Allies chart, maybe swapping Daemons for AdMech as Battle Brothers, feels more fluffy and would open up some potentially nice lists.


Come to think of it, it would be quite cool to do a similar thing for the Alpha Legion, and swap Daemons BB for Codex: Inquisition to represent their use of various kinds of hidden operatives rather than warp-spawned monsters.


Just a couple of random ideas that might be fun to think about!

[Teetengee]

Yep, although chances are I will be adding a dark mech codex and could potentially add some inquistorial elements as well (maybe as a Chaos Auxiliaries combined deal). Still interesting things to keep in mind.

[Iron_Within]

On the Crumbling cities legacy, I get what you're trying to do but I think it's clumsily implemented. I would simply put it as all cover saves are at -1. Reason for this is while you're covering city fighting (which isn't an Iron Warrior thing, it's siege and trench), it would likely cause arguments, and those you're representing are good at dealing with those in trenches and battlements. Also by doing this it is far more on a par with your other legacies.

 

I'm not convinced by the Warp table ala Codex Daemons. In play with Daemons I find it slows down gameplay. What are you trying to achieve with it? Thematically and on the tabletop?

[Teetengee]

Crumbling cities: Change sounds good, I wasn't sure if all cover was too powerful or not.

 

Warp Table is the effect from the final Warp Legacy option. The idea was preserving the warp table (which I think is kind of fun although others may only consider it FUN*). Thematically however, the idea is that some Chaos armies are heralded and herald themselves disturbances in the barrier between reality and the warp. Their very presence distorts reality around them and invites horror into the world. On the table top I wanted to create a more daemonic flavored Warp Legacy that would resemble this somewhat random warp influence that follows such armies. I figured the warp table ala daemons seemed the easiest thing to build off of, but am open to other ideas.

*subject to terms and conditions

[Teetengee]

So first request is if people can help me properly cost the Warp Talons, I think their new rules give them a decent role, but I don't know how to cost them appropriately, nor their upgrades. (especially I am leery of the Icon of Excess +Daemon of Slaanesh combo which gives them a threat range of 12+rerollable d6 +3 plus rerollable 2d6 i.e. max of 33 and an average of 27.75 assuming one only rerolls 3s and below.)

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Must say I like the warp legacies idea very cool

[MaliGn]

Are saves allowed against the wounds from punished by the gods from the warp table?

[Iron_Within]

Crumbling cities: Change sounds good, I wasn't sure if all cover was too powerful or not.

 

Warp Table is the effect from the final Warp Legacy option. The idea was preserving the warp table (which I think is kind of fun although others may only consider it FUN*). Thematically however, the idea is that some Chaos armies are heralded and herald themselves disturbances in the barrier between reality and the warp. Their very presence distorts reality around them and invites horror into the world. On the table top I wanted to create a more daemonic flavored Warp Legacy that would resemble this somewhat random warp influence that follows such armies. I figured the warp table ala daemons seemed the easiest thing to build off of, but am open to other ideas.

*subject to terms and conditions

Nah I don't think it's too powerful.

 

I personally think the table slows down gameplay. If you must have a table, I would consider writing one slightly more mundane (only very slightly) or at least that is different from the Daemons table to a greater degree.

[Iron_Within]

Vox Screech is a nice idea but it's rules are too fiddly if it's for unit champions. I would suggest simplifying to act the same as a Vox Caster (not overwatch within 6"). I also cannot see it in your wargear section for points costs, though I might just be missing it.

 

I like the idea of the Bedlam Staff feeding on Psykers to fuel the warp powers, however I think it's too situational to be effective. I would up it to be more useful. I'm reminded of DoW that staffs were used at range and in combat:

 

Bedlam Staff

The Bedlam Staff has two profiles depending on how it is used.

Melee: S: +2, AP: 4, Range: Melee, Daemon Weapon, Force, Warp Syphon, Concussive, Strike down

Range: S: 4, AP:4 Special: Daemongun, Warp Syphon

Warp Syphon: If the wielder inflicts an unsaved wound upon an enemy model, the controlling player gains +1 Warp Charge for each wound in their next Psychic phase, the psychic charge pool can be increased by a maximum of +3 in this manner. In the case of Psykers, each wound is worth double to a maximum of +6 Warp Charge Points.

 

While my Warp Syphon is clumsy you get the idea. This version always powers itself and is stronger. Against Eldar and Tyrands it's terrifying as you can completely dominate used right however against the Necrons and Tau it would still have uses and it gives more (albeit reduced) Warp Charges.

[Lagrath]

Doesn't someone do exactly this about every 10 months on here?

[Plaguecaster]

Doesn't someone do exactly this about every 10 months on here?

Pretty much, seems to happen every time something SM related gets some new release, on all honesty I doubt CSM will every get anything resembling traits/ legacies or what ever you want to call them. Since 5th GW completly changed it preferring to represent chaos as a whole unlike different legions etc like SM is 6th was the same so little chance that the fabled new dex we are hoping will have everything that puts chaos right we are hoping for is a shattered dream.

Just out of curiosity how would the cult elements be represented

Edited by teutonicavenger, 20 June 2015 - 02:30 AM.

[Warsmith Demetrios]

As a diehard fan of truely chaotic chaos space marines I must say I quite enjoy the work you are trying to do here with this fandex. However if I may ask are the vehicle entries you have not added like defilers of vindicators being changed up at all, and if so how will any new vehicle upgrades be implemented into existing works like IA 13? Also if I had to make one suggestion perhaps the addition of relic volkite weaponry to the armory as a special weapon for marine squads?

Edited by Warsmith Demetrios, 21 June 2015 - 04:10 PM.

[Teetengee]

various responses:

 

This is still very wip. So cults, and most of the vehicles don't have entires yet.
For cults, I am planning on including the big four cult marine units in the main book, and then creating separate dexes for the different cult armies, so that cult terminators will either force unbound or require a more dedicated cult army (which seems reasonable to me). Those wuld also get god specific warp legacies such as blood for the blood god (how that will be changed is still up in the air).

 

Yes people do this all the time, but since at least my group of friends is willing to let me try it out, I figured I might as well do it. And if others use it as well, then more power to them.

 

The Vox Screech isn't an upgrade for characters, right now only Raptors and Warp Talons have it (and not just champions), so that should hopefully make the wording less problematic. I considered the dirge caster thing, and part of me still wants to do it, but I don't want to make the dirge caster pointles (although it is cheaper than a whole unit of raptors/warptalons so that could make sense...)

As for warp syphon, something like that could probably work, although I figured a daemonic force weapon was probably strong enough as is against non psyker armies, since against them, you probably don't need the extra warp charges.

 

 

Basically the new upgrades should work fine in most of the IA13 stuff (which I will eventually do a rewrite at some point for as well, but for now it is not as problematic) with a few changes. Daemonic possession should be replaced with the slightly different parasitic possession. Also the plague hulk should have under special rules added Mutated Hull (Already in Profile). (which is how I am going to explain the soul grinder/ defiler discrepancy.)

Edited by Teetengee, 21 June 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[Teetengee]

I would love people to let me know what they think of the pricing on the various HQ options I have added.

[Teetengee]

Ok, so I played my first playtest of this codex last night, it was fun, but I made a few changes. I would love if people go through it and try a couple builds (or send me army lists to try out with it), see where break points or awkward wordings are, and overall just see what you all think.

[Teetengee]

Are saves allowed against the wounds from punished by the gods from the warp table?

Yes unless otherwise specified, sorry it took so long to get back to you.

Also, I'll be gone for a week, but when I come back I plan to start in on the decurion style formation section.
The codex is heavily bookmarked for ease of use right now though, so feel free to give it a shot and let me know what you think.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Personnaly i would make the Deamons weapons rebel only on a failed LD test at the end of the turn if there is no kills made with the weapon.

 

Also i don't really get Khârn's changes, he went to 195pts, but he is essentially the same has before, the addition of the Rampage and Prefered ennemy is nice, but in 3.5Dex for that point price the guy had 4Wounds, EW, a 2+ armor, +D3 attacks and FnP, imo Prefered ennemy and rampage, is not equivalant to those for the same points.

 

For 195 points i'd expect him to have at least a 2+ armor and EW, he's a former Legion Co Captain after all, and he died and ressurected many times.

 

Also i don't see why a guy thats Fearless is also Stubborn...

 

Also maybe it was said earlier and i din't see it, but Why does CSM can only take either a Mark OR a Veteran skill?..., why not both?

 

Chosens always had the Bolter+Pistol+CCW in their base wargear, i fail to see why suddenly they should pay for it.

 

i like the fact that they can take 2 Vet skills, but personally they should have a free Vet skill, because...well their Chosens, so they are allready veterans..., then they can buy a second Vetskill if they don't have a Mark.

 

Would also have added a "Chaos blade" option for them, essentially a CCW that give fleshbane&Armorbane for +5pts.

 

Same remark for termies, also Chaos termies should have hammer of Wrath because of their huge frame and their spikes/tusks/horns.

 

Possesed are nice-ish, they should have all Warp pistols.

 

Mutilators are nice, not awesome, but the Bloodscent rule is a nice addition.

 

Zerkers are finally FIXED, it really is how it should be!

 

The possibility to change the rhino into some sort of Razorback is rather nice, but while the assault modification is nice, the rule is waaaay too much punishing and that point cost...

 

Simply make it Open topped for 5pts, it give enough weakness to it like this, no need to lower the hull for "balance", and 20pts is way too high for a Rhino.

 

The options for the Pods are nice.

 

The Heldrake should have a rule that says" Flexible Monstrosity; the Heldrake firing arc is 180*"

 

The Deamonfiend is interessting, merging options of the Forge and Maulerfiends, but there is still that idiotic thing of Deamon engines=slowpoke thing, The Mauler option should have +1WS and Init.

 

Also if i see right, you can build it to be a Maulerfiend and give him one ranged weapon?, that nice, even i would awefully nice.

 

Would also liked the Tendrils to act like Assault & Defensive grenades, but maybe that would be too much.

 

I like the Defiler/Soul crusher Ikea idea and the Raider, even though some options are costy.

 

I don't really get why Abby is 380pts though..., i also always feeled that the Despoiler should be able to call in an artillery strike from the Planet Killer, ala Sm ChapMaster Orbital bombardement.

 

All in all i like it, you did a nice job.

[Teetengee]

Personnaly i would make the Deamons weapons rebel only on a failed LD test at the end of the turn if there is no kills made with the weapon.

I feel like it is too complicated, especially on a weapon that is already prompting one additional die roll per model with it. Although I do like the idea of mastery.

I will leave it as is for now.

 

Also i don't really get Khârn's changes, he went to 195pts, but he is essentially the same has before, the addition of the Rampage and Prefered ennemy is nice, but in 3.5Dex for that point price the guy had 4Wounds, EW, a 2+ armor, +D3 attacks and FnP, imo Prefered ennemy and rampage, is not equivalant to those for the same points.

 

For 195 points i'd expect him to have at least a 2+ armor and EW, he's a former Legion Co Captain after all, and he died and ressurected many times.

 

I originally priced him based on other things in the codex and the price difference between him and a similarly equipped lord in both this dex and the current GW one. I didn't give him eternal warrior and a 2+ because I missed them when I was looking through his rules in the 3.5 dex. I have added eternal warrior to deal with some of the highly disappointing and unfluffy results if you use him unattended in actual games. Point cost is increased by 5 to account for it. I will leave the 3+ armour as is for now as he is really only wearing power armour as far as I know. If someone can find otherwise I am willing to change it.

 

Also i don't see why a guy thats Fearless is also Stubborn...

 

It is to deal with the Where Angels Fear to Tread rule.

 

Also maybe it was said earlier and i din't see it, but Why does CSM can only take either a Mark OR a Veteran skill?..., why not both?

 

The idea was that dedication to a god takes too much time and effort for a regular trooper to also become incredibly skilled in a particular area of warfare. Only the particularly gifted (such as some of the elites slots) can do so.

 

Chosens always had the Bolter+Pistol+CCW in their base wargear, i fail to see why suddenly they should pay for it.

 

Missed that. Change made.

 

i like the fact that they can take 2 Vet skills, but personally they should have a free Vet skill, because...well their Chosens, so they are allready veterans..., then they can buy a second Vetskill if they don't have a Mark.

 

The vet skills are different costs, so I didn't want to incorporate the cost into the models.

 

Would also have added a "Chaos blade" option for them, essentially a CCW that give fleshbane&Armorbane for +5pts.

 

This was the reason behind the daemonblade option albeit with a different effect.

 

Same remark for termies, also Chaos termies should have hammer of Wrath because of their huge frame and their spikes/tusks/horns.

 

Same as above. As for hammer of wrath, I would consider adding it as a vet skill type upgrade, but I don't want to force people to pay for it if they don't want to.

 

Possesed are nice-ish, they should have all Warp pistols.

 

Hrm. Seems a bit much for their current price, but their current price may be not quite right, and it does sound like an interesting option.

 

Mutilators are nice, not awesome, but the Bloodscent rule is a nice addition.

 

I like to think of them as a budget option more useful for board manipulation and as a threat then as a beat stick.

 

Zerkers are finally FIXED, it really is how it should be!

 

Thanks.

 

The possibility to change the rhino into some sort of Razorback is rather nice, but while the assault modification is nice, the rule is waaaay too much punishing and that point cost...

 

Simply make it Open topped for 5pts, it give enough weakness to it like this, no need to lower the hull for "balance", and 20pts is way too high for a Rhino.

 

I had based it off of the cost of the raider, and the fact that it is potentially very dangerous with some of the other toys I have put in there. However, if you think that it is too punishing and expensive, I will make the following changes. Remove the armour drop, and change the cost to 10/45 as open topped also makes them better shooting platforms.

 

The options for the Pods are nice.

 

The Heldrake should have a rule that says" Flexible Monstrosity; the Heldrake firing arc is 180*"

 

It basically does, notice the front sponson mounted weapon.

 

The Deamonfiend is interessting, merging options of the Forge and Maulerfiends, but there is still that idiotic thing of Deamon engines=slowpoke thing, The Mauler option should have +1WS and Init.

 

Originally it was mostly to keep the helbrute different enough. I will add an option for increasing initiative.

 

Also if i see right, you can build it to be a Maulerfiend and give him one ranged weapon?, that nice, even i would awefully nice.

 

Yep.

 

Would also liked the Tendrils to act like Assault & Defensive grenades, but maybe that would be too much.

 

I am not sure how much they really need the grenades to be honest. No change for now.

 

I like the Defiler/Soul crusher Ikea idea and the Raider, even though some options are costy.

 

I figured it was better to err on the side of too expensive and reduce them after playtesting. I just assigned costs that seemed appropriate at the time, but may change them in the future.

 

I don't really get why Abby is 380pts though..., i also always feeled that the Despoiler should be able to call in an artillery strike from the Planet Killer, ala Sm ChapMaster Orbital bombardement.

 

D6 (apart from rolling a 1) S: D AP: 1 attacks at I 6 WS 9 plus 6 (and any bonuses) attacks at S:8 : AP: 3 Shred in close combat. Plus he is a force multiplier both for army flexibility and a unit of Chaos Terminators. I figured something that can pretty trivially stomp a knight flat should cost about the same as one, as he exchanges mobility for being an independent character and a host of other neat stuff. Also, the Planet Killer doesn't strike me as something he would bring to every fight.

 

All in all i like it, you did a nice job.

 Thanks for putting so much time into the reply. I have included point by point comments above, red for basic reasoning, blue for things that are staying the same for now, and green for things I am changing/readily open to change if you have suggestions.

Edited by Teetengee, 07 July 2015 - 01:49 PM.

[Teetengee]

I added the Decurion style formation.
Now I need to do some serious playtesting, and figure out how I want unaligned daemons to work into a codex (furies for instance).

Later additions will be cult books (including daemons), a human auxiliaries book, and a war machines book for all those fun IA-13 and similar beasties.

[Carrack]

I'm looking at giving your codex a test run in a few days. I'm playing a small 750 point game vs either 6th edition Loyalist or the standard CSM dex. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm really interested in seeing how the marks and vet skills play out.

[Teetengee]

Thank you. I may be getting another play in this weekend. I would love to see you put up the list here so we can discuss how it functions and your plans about it.

[Teetengee]

I have added a summary, although I haven't included the weapon profiles that aren't elsewhere in the codex in this version of it, as I don't want to run afoul of the giving away GW rules for free clause.

[Teetengee]

Modified Stalker Pods (up 5 points), Haywire Arrays (up 5 points as wargear and down to Salvo 2/3), and Daemoncannons (up 6" range) due to play testing.