Giarc Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Not sure if this question was ever asked, or if there is any fluff out there on this. But how are crusades structured? A typical codex chapter has their 1st company Veterans, 2-6 Tac squads, assault squads and devs, then scouts. (or somethign of that nature). Do the Templars have a organizational structure like this as well? Is there any documented fluff about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Templar Crusades are very ad-hoc. The only time you hear "Company" with Black Templar is when you have a "fighting company", which essentially means its a part of a crusade led by a Castellan or a Chaplain. Every crusade is headed by a Marshal, and they're temporary formations designed to take down a specific target or achieve a specific goal. Crusades range from a couple of squads in size, to two or three companies, or as many as nearly a full chapter in strength (I'd like to recall the 3rd war for Armageddon employing as many as 900 marines, but I'm not sure if I'm just pulling that number out of my behind) under the high marshal himself. Crusades are organized with the marshal leading it in the center, and around him he has the "marshals household" (always thought that an odd name), which consists of Swordbrethren elite veterans. If a marshal dies during a crusade, the next one will be picked from among the sword brethren. If the crusade has a Castellan, he would have also been picked from the sword brethren. The adhoc black templar organization is furthered by the fact that really, there's no such things as sergeants in Black Templar squad (This has taken a bit of a back seat with us now being in the main SM codex), with squads more acting like a sepperate circle or brotherhood of knights. Where you can find most of the fluff for Black Templar would be the 4th edition codex and more than a decade old white dwarfs (Issues around 250, by the old counting), and to a lesser degree the new codices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Yes, the 4th edition codex goes into detail about it. Each crusade has a Marshal, he is similar to a captain in rank, though in some cases he can lead a crusade of several hundred marines. Sometimes a Chaplain may lead a crusade as well, as in Helsreach, but this is rare. Then there is the usual high ranking officer types like Chaplains and Forgemasters, though no filthy witch librarians. If the Crusade is a large one and/or has to operate in multiple theaters of war then it might be broken down into Fighting Companies. These are not like Codex Companies but rather a collection of marines and equipment that the Marshal deems appropriate for where and who they will fight. These companies are usually led by a Castellan. Castellans are generally a temporary title given to one of his Sword Brethren, but could also be led by a chaplain or techmarine, etc. Most of the Crusader squads will not have a veteran Sgt. Those worthy will have already been promoted to the Sword Brethren. The Sword Brethren together with any command characters form The Marshal's Household. Sword Brethren are like the 1st company of lesser chapters. Except there are no specific squads or roles, there are just Sword Brethren. They are no longer responsible for training Neophytes and instead train in the use of TDA armor and things. Then the Crusader squads are made up of Initiates some of whom will be training a Neophyte as we have no scout company. Neophytes are trained in a Master/Apprentice style until the Initiate deems he is ready to be a full battle brother. All of these squads are usually organized ad hoc with no imposed structure, fighting together out of familiarity. There's a lot more in the codex but I wanted to give you the basic rundown. If you are interested, you can probably get one pretty cheap on ebay and it's worth the read. Hope that helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Darklight Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Reinhard and Ace nailed it. Codex Astartes Companies are a fixed structure. Captain, command structure and ~100 marines (strict Codex number wise, anyway). Black Templar Crusades can be as large as several hundred Crusaders and as few as a single squad. It's essentially decided upon as the situation arises, as opposed to obeying a tactical doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Would it be against rules to suggest he also look online for a pdf, since its a product no longer for sale for several years now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giarc Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 I do have the old 4th ed codex... 2 actually. One i chopped up to use as a cover for my 7th ed codex! I guess it has been a while since I last looked through that codex, I should check it out again. But there are multiple crusades that vary in strength from a few hundred to a few thousand.( well, maybe not that many). So in each crusade do we have our Sword Bro company, crusader companies, assault companies, dev companies, and scouts/neophytes? Or is this all thrown out the window, and the crusade just utilizes what we need? I do understand we dont follow the codex, but I just think its odd that there isnt a uniform structure that each crusade needs to maintain to keep strength. Such as, each crusade needs to maintaine 100 battle ready marines. But as Reinhard mentioned a Crusade can be a few squads to a few hundred Marines. I dont know if I made that clear or not. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 All the commets are really good. Excuse me, English is not my mother language, I will try to write the basic fluff any BT player needs: The basic Marine is called Initiate, and as the users have said before they are the trainers of the Neophytes. Both fight in mixed squads, so the Neophyte learns the basic combat skills and tactics in the battlefield with his brothers. And they are something like a squires of the Initates, helping their masters to clean the power armour or the basic routines. There are no Sergeants or Vet. Sergeants. In the Armageddon Codex I think there was a Crusader Squad but in Bikes, Initiate and Neophyte in bikes as a mix, identical to the Crusader Squads... Original Crusader Squads were built with Initiates and Neophytes... Now GW added the chance of upgrade a Initiate to Sword Brother, a false equivalent to Sergeant, and not taking a Neophyte. The Initiate and the Chaplain must agree for "level a Neophyte up" to Initiate, and then he will receive the black shell (?)(I dont remember the correct name), and his Power Armour. If the Initiate dies before completing the training, another Initiate could take the Neophyte, but only if the Initiate thinks the Neo deserves that honour. (The graphic novel/comic Damnation Crusade explain it really well). When a Initiate is a veteran, his status is changed to Sword Brother, then he can't take a Neophyte, he is now preparing himself for wearing a Terminator Armour, and now is part of the "personal guard" of the leader of the crusade (Castellan, Marshal...). When a Crusade is started, the High Marshal (the Chapter Master) selects a Marshal/Castellan (it depends of the size of the crusade), he must be a Sword Brother (of course). So Marshals or Castellans are not a permanent status (as Captain), they are only for the crusade, but obviously it is an important status and the crusade can take many years, even decades... When the crusade finish, another one is inmediatly started, so the Marshal usually take part in one or more Crusades (if he survives, hahahahaha). When a High Marshal dies, one of the Marshals will be selected as new High Marshal. Another not codex method s that BT don't have a main planet, they live in their vessels and recruit Neophytes in the planets they fight. So there is not a cycle, or a periodic selection in the planets as the most of Chapters (Grey Wolves, Ultramarines...). And it is a good way for ignoring the 1k Marines limit... In the old fluff, it seems BT was around 5-6k, now GW wants to erase the most of non-codex manners... There are no Companies, and of course no Scouts company, but in 6th edition the BT was allowed to take Scouts and a new fluff says when they were prepared to fight without his master, they can join with other Neophytes and take specail weaponry for some missions... Nothing was said about the Scouts Bikes... but the concept is the same. Of course we have no Scouts Sergeants... That's a good hole in the fluff... I really like to see a Crusader squad taking bikes. I don't know if you know that in 6th BT was allowed to take Devastators Squads... In the 4th ed codex there werent Devs or Scouts... And I know nothing about Assault Initiates (and Bikers), they have their shoulder pads different and I dont know if they take Neophytes or if they are a super-especialized marine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giarc Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 I guess the main point is: (hypothetically) If I was the High Marshal of the Black Templars, If i were to start assigning my forces to Armageddon, I would pick (just grabbing names in this thread) Crusade Reinhard to take Objective A. There could be 500+ orks down there. Then Crusade Dark_Jober take Objective B, where there could be about 50 orks there. How do I know if Reinhard has a full crusade if there are no rules for a standard number for crusade strengths. Reinhard could have a Crusade of 80 marines, where as Dark_Jober could have 750. With out actually micro-managing the exact size of the crusades, it would be hard to tell. Where as a Codex Chapter should maintain a fighting company of 100 marines. So i could easily say: Fighting Company 1-6 take Objective A (i.e. 500 enemy ork), and Fighting company 7 take objective B (ie 50 ork). Edit: If I am diving way to deep in to this, let me know and I can stop. Lol. Just a question I am wondering, and I find it odd that we dont have a standard operating procedure for what a crusade strenghts should be, and what units make up a crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Darklight Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 How do I know if Reinhard has a full crusade if there are no rules for a standard number for crusade strengths. Well... If I was the High Marshal of the Black Templars ... you'd know. The High Marshal is the only member of the Chapter to know exactly how many Battle Brothers strong the Chapter is at any time. Furthermore, when you assign him to that objective, you're also the one to assign him the resources he needs. Meaning you assign however many Crusaders you deem necessary for Reinhard to get the job done. When a Crusade is formed, it's for a larger objective, not because you have a new Marshal who needs a Company. Battle Companies in Codex forces are pre-existing and are assigned to a task. Black Templar Crusades are formed for a task, a Marshal is chosen from the High Marshal's Sword Brethren, and he is assigned whatever Crusader forces would be required for that task. When the task is done, the Crusade returns to the High Marshal to be redistributed or reassigned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giarc Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 How do I know if Reinhard has a full crusade if there are no rules for a standard number for crusade strengths. Well... If I was the High Marshal of the Black Templars ... you'd know. The High Marshal is the only member of the Chapter to know exactly how many Battle Brothers strong the Chapter is at any time. Furthermore, when you assign him to that objective, you're also the one to assign him the resources he needs. Meaning you assign however many Crusaders you deem necessary for Reinhard to get the job done. When a Crusade is formed, it's for a larger objective, not because you have a new Marshal who needs a Company. Battle Companies in Codex forces are pre-existing and are assigned to a task. Black Templar Crusades are formed for a task, a Marshal is chosen from the High Marshal's Sword Brethren, and he is assigned whatever Crusader forces would be required for that task. When the task is done, the Crusade returns to the High Marshal to be redistributed or reassigned. Ahh, that sums it up, and makes sense. So its like there is a pool of all the marines and assets that one can look at. When there is an objective that pops up (example above with 500 Orks) I just pull a number of resources to tackle that objective. Thanks all for the information and helpful responses! Crusade on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 All the commets are really good. Excuse me, English is not my mother language, I will try to write the basic fluff any BT player needs: The basic Marine is called Initiate, and as the users have said before they are the trainers of the Neophytes. Both fight in mixed squads, so the Neophyte learns the basic combat skills and tactics in the battlefield with his brothers. And they are something like a squires of the Initates, helping their masters to clean the power armour or the basic routines. There are no Sergeants or Vet. Sergeants. In the Armageddon Codex I think there was a Crusader Squad but in Bikes, Initiate and Neophyte in bikes as a mix, identical to the Crusader Squads... Original Crusader Squads were built with Initiates and Neophytes... Now GW added the chance of upgrade a Initiate to Sword Brother, a false equivalent to Sergeant, and not taking a Neophyte. The Initiate and the Chaplain must agree for "level a Neophyte up" to Initiate, and then he will receive the black shell (?)(I dont remember the correct name), and his Power Armour. If the Initiate dies before completing the training, another Initiate could take the Neophyte, but only if the Initiate thinks the Neo deserves that honour. (The graphic novel/comic Damnation Crusade explain it really well). When a Initiate is a veteran, his status is changed to Sword Brother, then he can't take a Neophyte, he is now preparing himself for wearing a Terminator Armour, and now is part of the "personal guard" of the leader of the crusade (Castellan, Marshal...). When a Crusade is started, the High Marshal (the Chapter Master) selects a Marshal/Castellan (it depends of the size of the crusade), he must be a Sword Brother (of course). So Marshals or Castellans are not a permanent status (as Captain), they are only for the crusade, but obviously it is an important status and the crusade can take many years, even decades... When the crusade finish, another one is inmediatly started, so the Marshal usually take part in one or more Crusades (if he survives, hahahahaha). When a High Marshal dies, one of the Marshals will be selected as new High Marshal. Another not codex method s that BT don't have a main planet, they live in their vessels and recruit Neophytes in the planets they fight. So there is not a cycle, or a periodic selection in the planets as the most of Chapters (Grey Wolves, Ultramarines...). And it is a good way for ignoring the 1k Marines limit... In the old fluff, it seems BT was around 5-6k, now GW wants to erase the most of non-codex manners... There are no Companies, and of course no Scouts company, but in 6th edition the BT was allowed to take Scouts and a new fluff says when they were prepared to fight without his master, they can join with other Neophytes and take specail weaponry for some missions... Nothing was said about the Scouts Bikes... but the concept is the same. Of course we have no Scouts Sergeants... That's a good hole in the fluff... I really like to see a Crusader squad taking bikes. I don't know if you know that in 6th BT was allowed to take Devastators Squads... In the 4th ed codex there werent Devs or Scouts... And I know nothing about Assault Initiates (and Bikers), they have their shoulder pads different and I dont know if they take Neophytes or if they are a super-especialized marine... Assault squads having a red rim around their pads marks them out as assault initiates, and they never take neophytes with them into combat, since the latter cannot take jump packs. They're initiates though as any others. In fact, since we have tactical and devestator squads now too, I simply view them as alternate setup for crusader initiates as well. We essentially have a name swap codex now: Captains are castellans, Sternguard, Vanguard, Sergeants are all sword brethren, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Actually I only view veteran sgts as sword brethren. Because normal sgts have the same stat line as normal marines, so to me they are just initiate squad leaders. As for assault initiates, jump packs are optional. Since I magnetized them I can still put them in crusader squads if I wanted. When they are using their jump packs maybe the neophytes go off to help with other duties within the crusade. Sometimes I wonder whether I should even have the red trim and just have them be standard initiates. There is a place where I struggle with the lack of fluff :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I am doing all mine as standard crusaders with the usual white and black, not bothering with the red. makes more sense to me that our "asault marines" would only be situational where a jump pack assault is required, and would just be regular crusaders the rest of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 To add further to what was said before. The High Marshal knows the strength of each crusade. And depending on the crusades mission they may visit chapter keeps along the way or nearby to replenish losses or bolster their strength. Armageddon is a bit of a different case. It is a very important planet to the Imperium and as such when Helbrecht decided to get involved he deemed it was necessary to bring in more Templars to add to the strength of his existing crusade(the Ghoul Stars Crusade) which he had just concluded. So he called in two of his Marshals and declared their crusades ended. He then reorganized all of the Templars at Armageddon to suit the needs of the situation and declared new Crusades like Helsreach Crusade and the Ashe Wastes Crusade. Helsreach we know consisted of 100 knights and no neophytes with Reclusiarch Grimaldus at it's head. He was supported by his command squad and Emperor's Champion Bayard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Going along with this, how would you structure a Black Templar Fighting Company to replace the Demi-Company of the Gladius Strike Force detachment? (One reason I really hope for a Templar Supplement). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 All this color coding wasn't part of codex Armageddon. Sword brethren didn't exist either. Also crusader bike squads with initiate bikers and neophyte bikers were a thing. A pretty awesome thing. Also land raider crusaders were restricted to a 0-1 option for all other chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Assault squads having a red rim around their pads marks them out as assault initiates, and they never take neophytes with them into combat, since the latter cannot take jump packs. They're initiates though as any others. In fact, since we have tactical and devestator squads now too, I simply view them as alternate setup for crusader initiates as well. We essentially have a name swap codex now: Captains are castellans, Sternguard, Vanguard, Sergeants are all sword brethren, etc This answer is only about background and ideas, so if you think it's absurd, please forget it! I like the red rim, but I think this is a reminiscence of the codex style, when the marines are in they third step in the Chapter (Scout->Dev->Assault->Tac), sometimes as "noob" and sometimes too focused that can't reach the Tac Squad I think we have that red rim 'cause they are a kind of specialist, not a common brother, maybe too focused on that style... Ok, they dont take their neos when fighting with jump packs, so... where are their neos? In 4th Ed there wasn't Scout Squads, so their neos can't be fighting alone... Do you think another Initiate could be teaching them? And yes I also view the Tac/Dev squad as a different configuration of a crusader squad. Asking about fluff... Honour Guard??? Who are our Honour Guard?? Are they Sword Brothers? Are they as the Pre-Heresy Death Guard Honour Guard? (The flight of the Eisenstein) In that book when a vet dies or was terrible wounded, they recover him (secretly) and say to all other marines he is dead, giving them a anonimous identity, I think only Mortarion knows their names... Another good question I read some days ago... Who is the person that write our History? Usually the librarians... But who is here? Are they the Chaplains? My last question of this message... In the Ragnar's Saga, when he is human but suffering the firsts test, the librarians use psychic tricks with him. But here we only have Chaplains... How can detect them a lesser psychic neophyte or evaluate the purity of his soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Darklight Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Honour Guard => High Marshal's Household. Basically they're the most veteran of the Sword Brethren. These would be the same brothers that are chosen as Marshals when the need arrises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Honour Guard => High Marshal's Household. Basically they're the most veteran of the Sword Brethren. These would be the same brothers that are chosen as Marshals when the need arrises. I just see them as more Sword Brethren. Maybe a Marshal's personal guard. when the marines are in they third step in the Chapter (Scout->Dev->Assault->Tac), sometimes as "noob" and sometimes too focused that can't reach the Tac Squad Except we don't have these steps. We have Neophyte at chapter keep, when ready -> Neophyte trained by Initiate -> Initiate -> Sword Brethren. And that's pretty much it. Another good question I read some days ago... Who is the person that write our History? Usually the librarians... But who is here? Are they the Chaplains? My last question of this message... In the Ragnar's Saga, when he is human but suffering the firsts test, the librarians use psychic tricks with him. But here we only have Chaplains... How can detect them a lesser psychic neophyte or evaluate the purity of his soul? Those are good questions and the answer is.. We really don't know. The codex doesn't really say how we weed out witches. Some of the new fluff would have you believe that no one keeps the library anymore but I don't buy that. Someone is writing down the history of the Chapter, my most likely guess would be the Chaplains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 or just random serfs write the history, leaving battle brothers to focus on fighting and training etc another one to add into the equation is the Emperors Champion. In the current fluff there is a single champion for the entire Templar chapter, and not all the time, just when someone is blessed by the Emperor. In the older fluff each crusade had its own Champion with a "black sword" and "armour of faith" (just the best kit the crusade had at the time). On Armageddon there were officially 3 Emperors Champions I think at the same time, one at Helsreach (Bayard) one in the Ash Wastes, and one with Helbrecht in orbit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Those are good questions and the answer is.. We really don't know. The codex doesn't really say how we weed out witches. Some of the new fluff would have you believe that no one keeps the library anymore but I don't buy that. Someone is writing down the history of the Chapter, my most likely guess would be the Chaplains. Thanks for your answer. I suposse you have read the "new" fluff... Do you like the new/reedited fluff? Are there new information about our chapter? Has been our number of battle-brothers modified again? I'm thinking about the red rim... Painting a piece of the armour requires a great ritual... so... Did they receive the red rim or did they paint the shoulder pad when they are moved to the assault/bikes squads? I know these question could have little interest, but we have found in few minutes many holes in our background, and I have never thought about all of those points... I think we are not going to receive a supplement, but I think if they release a BT supplement I will buy it... I need to get one hahahaah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 to be honest if you look into any background there are holes one of the key things with templars has always been that there is no set structure, so in terms of your own army, it is very much what you want to do if you justify it with your background in terms of numbers, that has never really been confirmed in any books i know of, the closest to it is that we know we had about 1000 at armageddon, and the 4th ed codex had an inquisitors report on a galactic map with known crusades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 'm thinking about the red rim... Painting a piece of the armour requires a great ritual... so... Did they receive the red rim or did they paint the shoulder pad when they are moved to the assault/bikes squads? I know these question could have little interest, but we have found in few minutes many holes in our background, and I have never thought about all of those points... There's really barely any fluff at all on the different color schemes that the different "ranks" wear. In fact the only thing I can find about it in the old dex is this http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/4/49/Black_Templars_Insignia.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/250?cb=20110921051542 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 'm thinking about the red rim... Painting a piece of the armour requires a great ritual... so... Did they receive the red rim or did they paint the shoulder pad when they are moved to the assault/bikes squads? I know these question could have little interest, but we have found in few minutes many holes in our background, and I have never thought about all of those points... There's really barely any fluff at all on the different color schemes that the different "ranks" wear. In fact the only thing I can find about it in the old dex is this http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/4/49/Black_Templars_Insignia.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/250?cb=20110921051542 Yeah, I have also found the 4thEd codex as the only reference to that scheme... But I was sure I have watched another official pic... and I have been searching 'cause I remember when the Space Marines 6thEd codex was released, before we watched a leaked pic of a Templar Army and I think all BT recovered their breath hahahaha.. here you are, the official pic when BT was released in 6th in the SM codex... the Assaults are red rim and the sergeant of the Centurions seems to be a Sword Brother: EDITED: I think the pic is too big, so I will put the link instead of the pic. http://pardonthepause.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Black-Templars.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciler Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'm thinking about the red rim... Painting a piece of the armour requires a great ritual... so... Did they receive the red rim or did they paint the shoulder pad when they are moved to the assault/bikes squads? I know these question could have little interest, but we have found in few minutes many holes in our background, and I have never thought about all of those points... I have always seen the red trim as an idiosyncrasy. It does not make much sense, as BTs more than many other chapters are trained in the use of CCW, to identify the "assault specialists", but I like to think that that's precisely the reason for it. If you think about it, BTs do not really have any meaningful specialist units, as codex chapters do ; except precisely those guys with the jet packs. So hey, why not show it ! One could also argue that the red trim (colour of the machine god) is a way to placate the machine spirit of the jet pack ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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