Ravenwing Questions

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So with the new Ravenwing strike force, and the ravenwing attack squadron formation I'm running into a few problems. My next project will probably to build up a small ravenwing force. 

 

What I know I will get is a second 6 man squad of bikers, 2 attack bikes, a second land speeder, and a command squad.

 

Now I know the new battleforce comes with a speeder, command squad, and attack bike. I was planning on doing that, and getting the other 6 bikers off of ebay, from a parted out DV set.

 

What has me in a quandary is how do I do Sammael. Do I use the speeder in the battle force to make sableclaw, or do I get my hands on Corvex. or do I pick up a third speeder so I can have both versions of Sammael (that was eventually the plan). I'm just wondering which to do first, I really like corvex seeing as the TLSB and PC are amazing support for a command squad (which is where I'd put him). 

 

I was also thinking about adding the Dark Vengeance Expansion set (because I have a use for all of it). To get me some extra black knights for the command squad and an extra Nephilim (so then all I need is a Dark Talon to complete a Silence Squadron). 

 

I'm just having a hard time deciding how to build this first, should I do two ravenwing attack squadrons first and worry about the special stuff later? Or do I just jump in whole hog and do the necessary stuff for the RWSF?

[Liberame]

I'd say do the attack squadrons first just so you won't fall into the same issue a lot of people do in that you always have a back log of grey plastic to paint...

[palin2222]

Sooooooooooooooooo much grey plastic. In my gaming group we have a house rule, "any model with less than 3 colors on it doesn't get its armor/cover saves." 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Sooooooooooooooooo much grey plastic. In my gaming group we have a house rule, "any model with less than 3 colors on it doesn't get its armor/cover saves." 

 

That kind of sucks for ravenwing, raven guard, and black templars doesn't it? I'm not so concerned with painting, I knocked out 2500 points of infantry heavy guard in less than a week, so that's not so much of an issue for me (especially given the relative complexity of guardsman uniforms) with raven wing, prime them black, give them a highlight, get some white on the emblems paint the eyes red give the guns a drybrush and done (I hate red guns, they look silly to me). I can have the Attack squadrons done in no time. 

 

I was mainly concerned with the buying and building. It seems to me that short term it will be more effective to build the 2 Attack squadron formations so that I can use them sooner, and then add the other stuff to bring it into the RWSF. I'm not planning on having a huge dark angels army, since I already have 10k of Space Wolves, and around 3k in Guard, another 3k in Tau, and yet another 4k in Necrons. I'm not wanting this to be a huge army, I just want to have some stuff I can use to support my other imperial armies with some cavalry, and maybe some terminator support (hence the DV expansion set). I just need 2 attack bikes and a dev squad and I could field a demi company, so I could run the lions blade, but I'm not really keen on going that deep into it. I really just like the ravenwing and deathwing units.

[Jazzhands]

We simply play painted models have preferred enemy non painted

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Like I said, not so concerned with painted, that I can handle with a good playlist and plenty of beer. I'm more concerned with how to construct the force so I don't end up with a bunch of stuff I don't use ( like I did with my wolves). 

[IanSturrock]

Sableclaw is so good this edition that I would pick that as the first choice. Sammael on his jetbike is still very good, but since you can make Sableclaw so easily and cheaply, it's worth going for it I think.

[JJD]

Sooooooooooooooooo much grey plastic. In my gaming group we have a house rule, "any model with less than 3 colors on it doesn't get its armor/cover saves."

Our house rule is units of painted models get preferred enemy against any unit containing unpainted models

 

Edited to note that If I had read all the way through before posting I would have seen someone already posted the same thing

[ValourousHeart]

Sableclaw is so good this edition that I would pick that as the first choice. Sammael on his jetbike is still very good, but since you can make Sableclaw so easily and cheaply, it's worth going for it I think.

This is also my advice. I am more partial to the speeder, but I like having lots of speeders. I also have the jetbike and think that is a model every RW collection should have, however I don't think it is always the best choice to bring to the table.

 

If it is a question of money, you will need to consider your meta. Sableclaw is cheaper then Corvex however, the support units are where you will spend more money. The Jetbike requires about 6 RWBK (2 boxes) whereas Sableclaw requires additional vehicles so that it isn't the only target for the AT weapons. I am still figuring out my list with the new codex, but with the old codex I recommended 12 bikes, 2 attack bikes and 3-4 speeders (including Sableclaw) for every 1000 points.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have one speeder, I plan on getting another and 6 more Ravenwing bikers. That'll form the core of my Ravenwing force, then I'll get the battleforce, and a second attack bike, to beef up the biker squads with some melta. I plan on adding 2 more black knights to the command squad from the battleforce, and a Company master on bike (for when they FAQ the bikes to add the ravenwing rule). I also want a 2nd nephilim, so to that end I'd get the DV expansion set, and put the DWK in my burgeoning DW formation (which is bare minimum atm). 

[Olataro]

 

Sooooooooooooooooo much grey plastic. In my gaming group we have a house rule, "any model with less than 3 colors on it doesn't get its armor/cover saves."

Our house rule is units of painted models get preferred enemy against any unit containing unpainted models

 

Edited to note that If I had read all the way through before posting I would have seen someone already posted the same thing

That's a terrible idea IMO. Penalizing someone for unpainted models is just poor sportsmanship

[Elios Harg]

I disagree. I think it encourages them to paint. I like it! It's one thing to play with the occasionally unpainted mini. I've done it with partially built minis before committing to which variant I wanted to build (I magnetize some stuff, but find many times that magnetizing limits how good you can make your minis look). However, some people have armies that are chronically unpainted. At least get your primary colors and a little trim work done, if not all the detail work. It doesn't take much time and effort to reach a 3 color minimum paint job.

[ValourousHeart]

I have one speeder, I plan on getting another and 6 more Ravenwing bikers. That'll form the core of my Ravenwing force, then I'll get the battleforce, and a second attack bike, to beef up the biker squads with some melta. I plan on adding 2 more black knights to the command squad from the battleforce, and a Company master on bike (for when they FAQ the bikes to add the ravenwing rule). I also want a 2nd nephilim, so to that end I'd get the DV expansion set, and put the DWK in my burgeoning DW formation (which is bare minimum atm). 

 

FYI - Company Master can not take a bike.  Only the Chaplain, I-Chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine can.

 

While It would be nice for the Bike upgrade to grant the RW rule, the only character in our codex that would have any claim to that special rule would be the normal Chaplain, as the I-Chaplain and Librarian are part of the DW and the Techmarine is not part of either DW or RW.  See the organization charts pages 10-19 in our codex.

 

 

 

Sooooooooooooooooo much grey plastic. In my gaming group we have a house rule, "any model with less than 3 colors on it doesn't get its armor/cover saves."

Our house rule is units of painted models get preferred enemy against any unit containing unpainted models

 

Edited to note that If I had read all the way through before posting I would have seen someone already posted the same thing

That's a terrible idea IMO. Penalizing someone for unpainted models is just poor sportsmanship

 

 

It isn't poor sportsmanship at all, although the no saves might be a bit harsh.  The perferred enemy rule is a nice twist.  But if all players are bound by the same rules then it is not poor sportsman.  It is not like they are saying all players with the B&C handle of Olataro have to re-role all successes.  That would be poor sportsmanship.

 

My first gamestore had a similar policy for the Battletech players.  -1 movement if the model wasn't on the right base.  -1 shooting and/or CC stat if it wasn't modeled with the right weapons.  -1 Morale / Leadership if it wasn't painted.  That meant that it didn't mean you auto lost, but it did make it harder to win.

 

What this lead to was everyone playing with WYSIWYG models that were based correctly and at least an attempt at painting.  Trust me there were no Golden Deamon winners at that store... but they all had painted models and they all showed improvment the more models they painted.

 

*edit* Spelling

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

That's brutal for battletech players, WYSIWYG on those minis is so difficult, as they're a chunk of metal with no real build options (some do but others do not). I could see forcing them to play whatever chassis the mini is, but damn that's brutal. 

 

As for no armor and cover saves on unpainted models, I have to say that's stupid. Preferred Enemy unpainted is better. That would only be the case if the army was consistently unpainted, i.e. if you've had the army for more than a month and you haven't even done so much as prime them, then you get penalized. 

 

It wasn't until I got the assembly line procedure down by painting guardsmen that I really started to enjoy painting again. I realized that tabletop standard didn't mean picking out every little detail. 

 

I'm not a stickler for WYSIWYG, I like to do it as much as possible, but it's not always possible. I have 2 10 man Kasrkin squads with grenade launchers, but I never take grenade launchers because I prefer plasma guns. As long as you can differentiate the model I'm happy, WYSIWYG Nazis are one of the reasons I got out of the hobby (The GW store I'd go to wouldn't allow counts as, it had to be modeled the correct way) in the first place. 

[Jazzhands]

Yep my gw run painted models get preferred enemy unpainted. Manager also runs a daily painting competition once a month as well as a monthly one ie you have a month to paint it.

 

He always has good prizes and even if you don't win you have put aside that time to paint

[ValourousHeart]

I agree with your WYSIWYG comment.  I also try to have as much as I can WYSIWYG, but I am not going to double the size of my RW collection just to have every possible combination of special and heavy weapons for every squad.

 

The main thing I try to avoid is having the same looking model count as more than one thing.  So while I have one attack bike modeled with a Heavy Bolter, I either run my attack bikes as all Multi-meltas or all Heavy Bolters or that one as a HB and the others a MM.

 

I never run these flamers are plasma, and those flamers are melta.

 

And I do model all of my bike squads carrying special weapons, but at some point levels I don't buy them for the squad. (I just say they are out of ammo)

I like the models to look cool, but be functional at any point level.

[notmattlythgoe]

 

While It would be nice for the Bike upgrade to grant the RW rule, the only character in our codex that would have any claim to that special rule would be the normal Chaplain, as the I-Chaplain and Librarian are part of the DW and the Techmarine is not part of either DW or RW.  See the organization charts pages 10-19 in our codex.

 

 

This is not completely true. Ravenwing and Master of Sanctity both show Sammael having a Librarian in his personal Command Squad.

[ValourousHeart]

If only we could do in game all that they get away with in the Black Library books.

 

I am just going off the structure given in the codex, which only lists a Ravenwing Chaplain.

 

Like I said before, it would be great if they gave all bikes the RW rule.

But if all we get is that they allow the IC's with Bikes to be taken in the RW Strike Force I'll be happy.

 

If we take the extended fluff from Black Library we could end up pointing out that Sammael is a member of Deathwing and should have the DW rule in addition to the RW rule.

And since GW has already given him all the rules that make up the DW rule, they should just go ahead and change it to the DW rule.

But I don't think that is worth putting into the FAQ.

[notmattlythgoe]

If only we could do in game all that they get away with in the Black Library books.

 

I am just going off the structure given in the codex, which only lists a Ravenwing Chaplain.

 

Like I said before, it would be great if they gave all bikes the RW rule.

But if all we get is that they allow the IC's with Bikes to be taken in the RW Strike Force I'll be happy.

 

If we take the extended fluff from Black Library we could end up pointing out that Sammael is a member of Deathwing and should have the DW rule in addition to the RW rule.

And since GW has already given him all the rules that make up the DW rule, they should just go ahead and change it to the DW rule.

But I don't think that is worth putting into the FAQ.

By the codex he is also a member of the deathwing. According to the codex Company Masters are chosen from Deathwing Knights.

[ValourousHeart]

I know he is.

And he has all of the same rules that apply to Deathwing (Fearless and Hatred - chaos SM).

 

What he doesn't have is fearless and hatred tied up under the DW special rule which would allow him to be taken in the Deathwing formations.

[Jazzhands]

It's a shame too because unless I'm mistaken he can deep strike.

 

Would have been nice to drop him in with the Knights for a run bonus

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think we've gone a bit off topic folks. As it stands Sammy is the only HQ with the RW rule, so I'm stuck until it gets an FAQ. The original questions was how should I proceed?

 

Are the Attack Sqdn formations worth it on their own, I don't have the new codex yet, still working on my guard ATM. I'll be done with them for a while come my next purchase. 

 

I just read some of the rules and they seem pretty good, I like the idea of combat squading my biker and giving my opponent more to shoot at while the speeder goes around adding +1BS to units. Might make that one special weapon more reliable (since I'd split the special weapons up). 

[Jazzhands]

Either Sam build is good. Wish I still had him in speeder as jinking stops me using his plasma cannon.

 

Still recommending a support squad with shroud. Gives great buffs puts out lots of shots and is an amazing bullet sponge

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'll look into it. From what I've seen it's nasty, and I'd love to field it. Right now I'm more concerned with the "core" stuff for a ravenwing army. The Ultimate goal is to have all the ravenwing, and a little bit of deathwing to support them. I like fast moving hard hitting armies. 

[Jazzhands]

Biggest problem with ravenwing outside of the hq thing is how bad you feel when you crush the enemy.

 

As a da player I'm just not used to the guilt.

 

As a core normal bikers are good and you can pick up the dark vengeance ones cheap one eBay. Nice models and easy to convert.

 

Black knights are a must have as the can fill any role you like. Good shooting excellent cc and add an apothecary to a command squad and jink and fnp make them damn hard to kill

Also if you have the funds check out our new and improved flyers.

 

Rift cannon and stasis bomb are very useful