Macro Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 My work around will be to use both the Strike Force and the Redemption Force when I want pure Deathwing. For example: DWSF HQ 3x TDA Librarian Elites 3x Ven. Dread in pod DWRF TDA Librarian 2x Deathwing Terminators 1x Deathwing Knights 1x Deathwing Command Squad I'm not sure if there are any restrictions on having the strike force librarians join a unit in the redemption force, but if so, you can put a squad in the strike force for them to join. The idea is that by combining them, you guarantee that you will get turn 2 units. If you don't field ravenwing there is nothing to guarantee the strike force will get units on the board turn 2, so your dreads may have to survive longer. This method means all but one dreadnought would arrive by turn 2. That's assuming I can join my HQ(s) to the Redemption Force squads. I thought the drop pods were not allowed to come in turn 1 due to the codex rules over ruling the brb deepstrike rules? Saw some mention of that in another thread I think. If that is the case then you still won't have any units on at end of turn one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatherTurin Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Only one of the special formations/detachments (Redemption Force IIRC) overrules the drop pod assault rules. The other follows the same rules as in the drop pod datasheet. Edit: those rules = half (rounded up) drop on turn 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 *snip* The fact is that "pure" deathwing is marginalized this edition, there's no point in crying about it. Anyway, playing with 40 deathwing terminators and nothing else is exceptionally unfluffy, that many of the first company would fight together maybe once a millenium, and there'd better be at least half a squad of fallen on the other side of the table...and even then, the ravenwing brothers who found them would almost certainly be in the picture. It was possible to build a pure DW force out of our codex for a long time, but that didn't make it fluffy, just common. The fluffy way to play deathwing is one squad, led by an interrogator chaplain, possibly with a senior librarian along for support. One squad, maybe two. Chasing a single fallen angel...or, in support of a battle company, maybe 3-4 squads. Actually pure Deathwing is deployed quite often. Usually during siege operations, boarding actions or of-course in space hulks. Most recent example that I can think of is in the new Unforgiven novel where Belial 5 Deathwing Knights and 25 Terminators are teleported aboard enemy ship to cripple the void shields, eneginarium and command. just them with no support, RW was fighting the battle on the planet while DW are fighting battle in the void. Anyway, I just re-read deep stike rule and as a matter of fact, I am now convinced that we see a problem here when there is none in the case of the DWSF. Let me explain: Firstly, the restrictions of the DWSF which state that you can only field units with DW special rule or dedicated transports. The latter would be either drop pods for venerable dreads or land raiders for the terminator (and knights) squads. Secondly, the "summoned to war" rule stating that all units must arrive by deep strike. This one being seen as the problem. When you read the deep strike rules, there are two elements of importance in this case. The first one is the rule wording in itself: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve." As we read that, nothing is really solved but, there is another point that might save the day, here it is: "Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside." So now, where do I go and what is my point ? It seems rather obvious to me that if you choose a land raider as a dedicated transport and choose to deploy the unit it transports inside the vehicule, you simply override the "summoned to war condition". How can you Deep strike a land raider when the DS rule clearly states that this is impossible ? Anyway, I am not telling I am 100% right, but just trying to have the debate go toward some solution for people who want to field a "pure" DW... Codex rules usually over rule BRB rules. It it states you must start in Deep Strike reserve means you are there on the Strike Cruiser waiting to be teleported into combat. Well...in general, codex rules override modify BRB rules. In this case, the terminators would be forced to deepstrike, while the land raiders would not, since they are in fact separate units, even though they collectively fill a single FOC slot. The real question is whether it is legal to field land raiders in that detachment in the first place, given the contradiction between "everything must deepstrike," and "only models with the deepstrike special rule may deepstrike." The most straightforward solution is that you can't field land raiders, but I suspect that what the authors intended was that you be allowed to field dedicated transport land raiders, but they must deploy empty, with the terminators in reserve. That would make it far less likely that you'll be tabled, and it would shift the balance away from crusaders towards mars pattern land raiders...I would go from three crusaders with three terminator squads inside them to two mars pattern land raiders and four deepstriking terminator squads in that case....except that I own one mars, three crusaders, and a terminus ultra, so I guess it'd have to be a mars and a crusader for me. My best guess is that actually they dont want you to use LRs with your DW. Why wouldnt they include at least 3 Heavy Support options then? Also cant you still magnetize those land raiders of yours, should have enough parts? I'm fairly certain the reason dedicated transports are even mentioned is because of the ven dread drop pods. I don't believe the intent was to put DW in land raiders. It's shame really, DW has had the ability to be fielded as a standalone force since 2nd edition, why GW decided to force them to both deep strike and come in after first turn is beyond me. To make DW viable, all they really need to do is change the wording from "must start in deep strike reserve..." to "may start in deep strike reserve..." I am of the same opinion the only reason they are mentioned are due to Drop pods for Dreads, but then why allow Terminators take dedicated Land Raider Transports at all? Also im sure it was intentional, to make people with small DW force to purchase those nice expensive bike units, they know you wont just buy 3 models, you will have to buy at least 12 with some land speeders. Oh now you have a small RW force might aswell expand it, right? Corporate Marketing. My work around will be to use both the Strike Force and the Redemption Force when I want pure Deathwing. For example: DWSF HQ 3x TDA Librarian Elites 3x Ven. Dread in pod DWRF TDA Librarian 2x Deathwing Terminators 1x Deathwing Knights 1x Deathwing Command Squad I'm not sure if there are any restrictions on having the strike force librarians join a unit in the redemption force, but if so, you can put a squad in the strike force for them to join. The idea is that by combining them, you guarantee that you will get turn 2 units. If you don't field ravenwing there is nothing to guarantee the strike force will get units on the board turn 2, so your dreads may have to survive longer. This method means all but one dreadnought would arrive by turn 2. That's assuming I can join my HQ(s) to the Redemption Force squads. AFAIK units can interact between formations and detachments the same as allies unless otherwise stated. Thats a good list btw comes out at 1695 without upgrades so you have plenty to fill with upgrades for 1850 list. This is exactly what i wanted to see in this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Good stuff, when I finish up my Troops/Elites post for the 6th -> 7th Player primer I'll link to this. Though I will say I hope you keep evolving this and updating accordingly. This is a good jumping off point but ending a 7th edition tactica thread by saying "I'll probably still play with 6th ed rules" is a little disheartening. I understand people are put off by the changes to Deathwing but it looks to be pretty clear that GW doesn't want us to field pure Deathwing. Let's be honest, pure Deathwing while fun and narrative isn't all that effective on the table. What made 6th ed DW plausible was the heavy amount of Landraiders we fielded to go with them. I think it's time to move on from the pure DW ages and embrace the quality support from DW. Ideas of the top of my head that I think I'd like to see explored: Deathwing in a CAD Deathwing lists vs specific factions Deathwing and their best target matchups Building a DW list around a RW, GW, or mixed list Alternatively, building a RW, GW or mixed list around DW Strong DW HQ loadouts etc. Use of the DWCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sindiferous Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Brothers, I agree the DWRF with DWSF is a good way to go. As for everyone worrying about drop podding in dreads turn one, think of this a tactically prepping the battlefield for your upcoming DW assault. Drop the dreads on a strong defensible position or drop them behind cover or into a position away from your opponents main guns, but where they can move to a supporting position for round two. Nothing says you have to throw away a dread in a drop pod on round one, you just have to get it on the board in a defensible position. At least that is another way of deploying Pure DW, and this time around with a Company Master in TDA with storm shield and power sword or TH for less than Belial. I will also miss the Pure DW lists, but the RW with DW fluffy feel and awesome way it is written to work I this codex is going to be fun. I Brought out Samael model from the closet may even ETL him. I'll also update as to how I run next months games. I do agree however this is an issue deserving of a GW FAQ'd response ref land raiders and or tabling win turn one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Actually, pure deathwing is deployed quite often. Usually during siege operations, boarding actions or of-course in space hulks. Wait...you're suggesting that a large force of deathwing would quite often lay siege to an enemy stronghold all by themselves with no other imperial forces? I would dispute that. Possible for them to deploy in response to a request for DA assistance without other DA units in support of an IG siege operation, sure, but that's not pure deathwing, is it? And I'd find that to be quite rare, they have much better things to do, and not enough deathwing squads to do them! As for boarding actions, etc, sure, that's probably fairly routine...the problem being that those are small unit actions, generally a single squad, not more than 15-20 terminators, and anything more than about ten would be just as rare as the deathwing unilaterally representing the DA in responding to a request for forces. Pure deathwing is really fluffy/common in a 400 point game...but not 1850. FatherTurin, I don't think the hammer of caliban is a stand-alone formation, I think you can only take it in the context of a blade of caliban, which means you have to take a demi-company as a prerequisite to fielding the hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 FatherTurin, I don't think the hammer of caliban is a stand-alone formation, I think you can only take it in the context of a blade of caliban, which means you have to take a demi-company as a prerequisite to fielding the hammer. The hammer of caliban is a stand-alone formation. Every formation is a stand-alone formation. If there is a formation dataslate for it, you can take it as a detachment. The formations in the book aren't special, it's the Lion's Blade Detachment that is special, in that it is a detachment that is made up of formations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonBased Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Actually, pure deathwing is deployed quite often. Usually during siege operations, boarding actions or of-course in space hulks. Wait...you're suggesting that a large force of deathwing would quite often lay siege to an enemy stronghold all by themselves with no other imperial forces? I would dispute that. Possible for them to deploy in response to a request for DA assistance without other DA units in support of an IG siege operation, sure, but that's not pure deathwing, is it? And I'd find that to be quite rare, they have much better things to do, and not enough deathwing squads to do them! As for boarding actions, etc, sure, that's probably fairly routine...the problem being that those are small unit actions, generally a single squad, not more than 15-20 terminators, and anything more than about ten would be just as rare as the deathwing unilaterally representing the DA in responding to a request for forces. Pure deathwing is really fluffy/common in a 400 point game...but not 1850. FatherTurin, I don't think the hammer of caliban is a stand-alone formation, I think you can only take it in the context of a blade of caliban, which means you have to take a demi-company as a prerequisite to fielding the hammer. As rare as Azrael and Ezekiel showing up at every Azeke Bomb battle? Or Sammy personally leading the RW into the majority of engagements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Actually, pure deathwing is deployed quite often. Usually during siege operations, boarding actions or of-course in space hulks. Wait...you're suggesting that a large force of deathwing would quite often lay siege to an enemy stronghold all by themselves with no other imperial forces? I would dispute that. Possible for them to deploy in response to a request for DA assistance without other DA units in support of an IG siege operation, sure, but that's not pure deathwing, is it? And I'd find that to be quite rare, they have much better things to do, and not enough deathwing squads to do them! As for boarding actions, etc, sure, that's probably fairly routine...the problem being that those are small unit actions, generally a single squad, not more than 15-20 terminators, and anything more than about ten would be just as rare as the deathwing unilaterally representing the DA in responding to a request for forces. Pure deathwing is really fluffy/common in a 400 point game...but not 1850. FatherTurin, I don't think the hammer of caliban is a stand-alone formation, I think you can only take it in the context of a blade of caliban, which means you have to take a demi-company as a prerequisite to fielding the hammer. As rare as Azrael and Ezekiel showing up at every Azeke Bomb battle? Or Sammy personally leading the RW into the majority of engagements? Precisely I'm not saying everything the codex allows is normal/common/fluffy, I'm saying that "but it's so fluffy to play a pure deathwing force of 40 terminators in routine Friday night battles against imperial fists" as an argument for how unjust it was for GW to take away the first turn deathwing assault is absolute bovine feces. The hammer of caliban is a stand-alone formation. Every formation is a stand-alone formation. If there is a formation dataslate for it, you can take it as a detachment. The formations in the book aren't special, it's the Lion's Blade Detachment that is special, in that it is a detachment that is made up of formations. I stand corrected...I missed the "circle with three skulls" icon in the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyfellow Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 We've always played that dedicated transports can be, and routinely are, deployed separately from the troops. I don't see this codex changing anything. Set up a squad with LR, DEPLOY LR on turn one. Don't lose. Y'all really need to relax and enjoy the game. Take care. I'm planning on running DW with RWSF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sindiferous Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 We've always played that dedicated transports can be, and routinely are, deployed separately from the troops. I don't see this codex changing anything. Set up a squad with LR, DEPLOY LR on turn one. Don't lose. Y'all really need to relax and enjoy the game. Take care. I'm planning on running DW with RWSF. Talked to the guys at the store where I play and they agree with what you are saying ref transports. Dedicated transports deploy separately on turn one, but they would be glad to go with just dropping a Ven-Dred in a pod. This will allow me to play Pure DW as I used to before I started using an IK for Heavy Support. I am also of the opinion just to relax and enjoy what GW is doing for us. Sure I need to get some RW Knights and (can't believe I am saying this) a Dark Shroud to set up my DW strike on round two. Points wise a small bike force with a Level 2 Libby leading the pack and a few land speeders over watching will give my DW with Libby the perfect support package to play with. Now I have the DW Hammer smacking against the RW Anvil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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