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IL XVI - The Drowned


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#476
Hesh Kadesh

Hesh Kadesh

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One of the last revisions made to him was that he had Independent character and MotL. And there is the same respect there as there was when those who replaced the WIP Morro with something that resembled nothing like what had been written before. Equally polite.

Regarding costs: Special Issue Ammunition for 20pts, how is that worked out? How is it 27+pts for a Master Crafted Relentless Boltgun with Special Ammunition, but 15pts for a Plasma Pistol which would do more? The giving of Relentless is so that the Boltgun actually can do something other than pook pretty. When was the last time anyone fired Alexis Polux's Boltgun. The Meltagun, sure, but the Boltgun is otherwise abpointless weapon that adds nothing to the lethality. Please review whatever matrix you are using to represent the maths involved.

The reroll of invulnerable saves on a Primarch combined with a Primarchs resilience is a major difference between why one may have been considered too much. It was not too much of Lugft Huron, which is where it was lifted from.

Hennasohn's profile looks like WS7, S6, I7, A4 with Poltergeist. The 'weak' limitation is a WIP that has stemmed from the fact I have absolutley no idea what the Pariah rules are, and need a unified ruleset for that for me to include that within, and Psykers are also common enough to mitigate the statline directly.

If I was to create a Unique Psychic Power which had those effects to represent the ability to control the blades better than if he was using them in his hands, it would look largely like he already does, except there would be a negligible cost of a Charge Cost, which then boils down to 'lets give him this unique trait and have it entirely forgotten and ignored when he needs to cast spells'. It is why he is mastery 2, and not Mastery 3 like previous incarnations of his rules.

Put him up against a Mastery 2 Psyker, and he is not much more dangerous in an assault than a White Scars Sergeant. Even a Mastery 1 Psyker would invariably make a standard Paragon Praetor a better option to take him down due to the different in points costs AND that it can be more lethal due to having a 2 additional attacks potentially and a better Invulnerable Save for cheaper cost.

Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#477
helterskelter

helterskelter

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Decisions get collectively made in your absence.
If you want your vision stuck to more closely I would ask you to start PM'ing me or engaging with me here or on discord (mobile or otherwise).
Entirely up to you of course, or if you want full control of the Legion returned to you say so and I'll step away
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My referal code for eternal crusade:EC-MHXKY9RLYIIEH

#478
Hesh Kadesh

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I've not recieved one message from yourself.

Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#479
MikhalLeNoir

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Uhm. I don't want to offend anybody, but weren't you absent for a long time and helter took over? Wouldn't it be then appropriate to ask him what he changed during your absence?

Open for Comissions, just PM me. The Wardens of Light were like golden blades, cutting down their enemies scarring the darkness.

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#480
helterskelter

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I've not recieved one message from yourself.


If you want to play Mexican stand-off that's fine I can do this :cuss all day,
However if you want to work together and make the Drowned awesome, balanced and all the good things, let's not get into handbags at dawn and start working now
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gallery_48988_10980_7442.png

My referal code for eternal crusade:EC-MHXKY9RLYIIEH

#481
Hesh Kadesh

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At what stage of 'lets make this awesome and balanced' means completely removing any sort of resemblance to previous concepts?

@Mikhal, Those changes to Morro have happened in the time since I have been active, and within having made changes to Morro personally on the AU rules hub. I've been active on B&C most days, and links direct to this forum, before I check the AoD forum for discussions.

You can accuse me of not getting in contact, whuch is true - I didn't get in contact every week just in case you wanted to completely remove all resemblance save the name. Do you want me to gove you message next week, just to make sure thst you're still okay with how the Drowned's Legiones Astartes rules are operating?

In return, it's not as though you even attempted to get in touch to see if I was okay with what you were doing.

In which case, if it's not clear, with regards to Morro at least, is a categorical :cuss no.

Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#482
helterskelter

helterskelter

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Right then, Morro, what's the issue vs yours?
Is it the corax/curze equivalent statline which is indicative of a swift primarch? If you'd prefer a touch more fulgrim perhaps?
The shotel named for a greek fate who cuts the threads of life in keeping with the Greek themes you have and with a rule helping define how much of a delight Morro is?
Is it the modified Dark Eldar sidearm?
Is it the rules reflecting the drowneds relationship with watery Horror?
We have 2 rulesets to work with neither set in stone. Let's mix and match
gallery_48988_10980_7442.png

My referal code for eternal crusade:EC-MHXKY9RLYIIEH

#483
simison

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One of the last revisions made to him was that he had Independent character and MotL. And there is the same respect there as there was when those who replaced the WIP Morro with something that resembled nothing like what had been written before. Equally polite.

Regarding costs: Special Issue Ammunition for 20pts, how is that worked out? How is it 27+pts for a Master Crafted Relentless Boltgun with Special Ammunition, but 15pts for a Plasma Pistol which would do more? The giving of Relentless is so that the Boltgun actually can do something other than pook pretty. When was the last time anyone fired Alexis Polux's Boltgun. The Meltagun, sure, but the Boltgun is otherwise abpointless weapon that adds nothing to the lethality. Please review whatever matrix you are using to represent the maths involved.

The reroll of invulnerable saves on a Primarch combined with a Primarchs resilience is a major difference between why one may have been considered too much. It was not too much of Lugft Huron, which is where it was lifted from.

Hennasohn's profile looks like WS7, S6, I7, A4 with Poltergeist. The 'weak' limitation is a WIP that has stemmed from the fact I have absolutley no idea what the Pariah rules are, and need a unified ruleset for that for me to include that within, and Psykers are also common enough to mitigate the statline directly.

If I was to create a Unique Psychic Power which had those effects to represent the ability to control the blades better than if he was using them in his hands, it would look largely like he already does, except there would be a negligible cost of a Charge Cost, which then boils down to 'lets give him this unique trait and have it entirely forgotten and ignored when he needs to cast spells'. It is why he is mastery 2, and not Mastery 3 like previous incarnations of his rules.

Put him up against a Mastery 2 Psyker, and he is not much more dangerous in an assault than a White Scars Sergeant. Even a Mastery 1 Psyker would invariably make a standard Paragon Praetor a better option to take him down due to the different in points costs AND that it can be more lethal due to having a 2 additional attacks potentially and a better Invulnerable Save for cheaper cost.

 

  • I believe the Special Issue Ammo price tag came from an analysis of the Seeker squad, vaguely 5 points per ammo type. And define 'more'. You have a gun that can use one of four different profiles with a reroll to shoot (Master-crafted priced at 5 points), and completely ignores its weapon type (I price Relentless at 20 points). Henna's gun does a lot more than a plasma pistol.
  • "The giving of Relentless is so that the Boltgun actually can do something other than look pretty." And this is my current problem with Hennasohn. Polux is undoubtedly a melee fighter. The combi-melta is only to give him a little more utility and it works in conjunction with Polux's desire to get into melee. Hennasohn, however, has been given so much crap that his role is confused or too broad.
  • The forced invul rerolls is incredibly potent power, regardless who it is given too. I will not deny that it exists in canon, but it must be treated with extreme care and used rarely. Why should I allow Hennasohn to have this ability when, in 30k, only Sigismund, the mini-Primarch, has it (and then only in challenges)?
  • And if no one brings a psyker, Hennasohn is given a Warp ability that is more potent than either Iron Arm or Warp Speed, and that's on top of three powers already. And let me reiterate, this is a power that ignores an entire sub-system of the game that it's supposed to function under. (On a minor note, there is no Warp power that improves WS, so that's another concern.) 

 

Okay, as it stands, Hennasohn has three Mary Sue flags. Uber gun that has Special Issue Ammo, despite him not having any affiliation with the Seekers. A sword that forces rerolled invul saves. And the Poltergheist ability. 

 

Actually, checking my last post, you didn't even answer as to why Hennasohn has Special Issue Ammo. 

 

So, somethings need to be revised or eliminated. I will only allow the Poltergheist ability if Hennasohn has no other powers. The fluff will be that he's constantly channeling Warp energy  and doesn't have the concentration to do anything else. Or lose the Poltergheist ability. I'm in favor of it because it is interesting and unique, so I'd rather see him lose the standard abilities. 


Project Leader of the Brotherhood of the Lost

 
The Second Son: Narrative of the BOTL Vth Legion Primarch

 

Brotherhood of the Lost has arrived on Patreon

 

gallery_92945_11930_24196.png

 


#484
Grifftofer

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I care nothing for how Morro has been currently changed. I don't mind for toning down what has been written, but it shares no resemblance to anything he was invisaged as.

 

First up I would like to say that its entirely my fault that the changes were made and in such an abrupt manner. The intention was never to overwrite the existing ruleset, but to simply provide a more 'normalised' version of his rules that could reflect him before all the changes were wrought upon him. In hindsight it was a mistake to do so on the existing document, but I have reverted those changes and made a separate doc for the earlier incarnation, as I should have done in the first place. I would like to apologise for any implied insult you may have taken from the decision, but I would say that it certainly wasn't intentional.

 

However, I think it would be disingenuous to suggest we attempted to pervert the character's essence. If I were to break down the majority of the rules that Morro has as it stands tie directly to the abilities that he gains after his augmentation by Urien. Impure Prince and Krakengrasp are explicitly linked to his augmentation, the Agoniser Tendrils are likewise inextricable. The Deeping Plate was written to be as it is as a balance to his other abilities being what they are. And his Sire rule currently is just over the top, he gives two special rules and two conditional special rules to all the Drowned models. Individually any of those rules would be worthy of most Primarchs' Sire ability, in combination...

In any case I will stop there as I truly want this to be a discussion. If you have issues with the suggested Late Crusade Morro I would like to hear them. As although I believe they are well reasoned and justifiable based on what I know of Morro, I would never want to suggest I know everything about even half of the things we have going on in the BotL.


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#485
simison

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Sorrowsworn Morro

 

Comparison Base: Angron (400 points)

 

Attributes

 

  • -1 WS: (-5) points
  • -1 S: (-10) points
  • +1 W: 10 points
  • -2 A: (-10) points

 

Total: (-15) points

 

Wargear

 

  • Agoniser Tendrils vs Gorechild & Gorefather: (-10 for S) + (Armourbane = Fleshbane) + (5 for Flurry vs Murderous Strike) + (15 for Wracking Torment) = 10 points
  • Ferryman's Toll vs The Spite Furnace (20): (Base Weapon: 10 + Blast: 5 + Shred: 20 + Rending: 15) = 30 points
  • Deeping Plate vs Armour of Mars: 20 points
  • Plasma & Rad Grenades:  10 points

 

Total: 50 points

 

Special Rules

  • Sire versus Sire: ((Move through Cover (20) & Night Vision (10) - Furious Charge (10) & FNP  [6+] (5) =  15 points)) + (Forced Consolidation: 10 points) + (Immunity to Fear (10) & Conditional Preferred Enemy (5) vs Conditional Fearless (5) = 35 points
  • Krakengrasp vs The Butcher's Nails: (-5) points
  • Impure Prince vs Red Sands: (-30) points

 

Total: 0 points

 

Total cost: 35 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 435 points

 

Notes: 

 

  • I'm calculating Impure Prince at (-20) points and Red Sands as a 10-point ability
  • I assigned 15 points for the Butcher's Nails and Krakengrasp as 10 points. The latter is fairly cheap because of forced challenges and marines have an advantage against Strength checks and it's only a D3 penalty to attacks. 

Project Leader of the Brotherhood of the Lost

 
The Second Son: Narrative of the BOTL Vth Legion Primarch

 

Brotherhood of the Lost has arrived on Patreon

 

gallery_92945_11930_24196.png

 





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