Legion Veterans Tactica

[Caillum]

This is a thread for discussion about Legion Veterans. After the initial discussion on their value as Troops, I've decided it will be better to discuss them as a whole.

Firstly, Veterans can be made into Troops via a few ways:
- any Master of the Legion can take the "Pride of the Legion" Rite of War, but you MUST take 2 units of Veterans (or 2 units of Terminators, or a combination of the two) as your compulsory choices. As a drawback, if you lose all your Veterans/Terminators, you'll give your opponent another Victory Point. And no Allies.
- any Legion Delegatus can take the "Chosen Duty" Rite of War, but you MUST take 2 units of Veterans as your compulsory choices. As a drawback, if you lose the Delegatus, your opponent gets another Victory Point. However, if your Delegatus survives, YOU get another Victory Point! No Praetors, Primarchs or Allies, so very specialised.
- Maloghurst the Twisted and Horus the Warmaster make them Troops. Lucky Sons of Horus players!
- the Death Guard Rite of War, "The Reaping", makes them non-compulsory Troops.

If you are not running a Rite of War and have a Master of the Legion, at least consider "Pride of the Legion", or taking a Delegatus for "Chosen Duty".

To put them in perspective, a unit of 10 Veterans costs only 30 points more than 10 "True Grit" Tacticals (ones with purchased combat blades). Both units have similar options too. You do lose the Fury of the Legion special rule, but more on that later. The 30 points pays for an additional attack, the Veteran Tactics special rule and the following additional unit options:
- power weapons & volkite serpentas for every model.
- discounted, squad-wide melta bombs.
- up to 2 special/heavy/combat weapons,
- thunder hammer option on the Sergeant.
The Veteran Tactics special rule allows you to choose from the following USRs: Fearless, Sniper, Furious Charge, Outflank or Tank Hunters.

So, what the 30 points really pays for is versatility. The combination of Veteran Tactics and the previously mentioned options is perfect for specific roles:
- "Budget" Vets: Sniper, artificer armour and a vexilla (if needed for your Legion) for a decent objective holder.
- Furious Charge, artificer armour, a vexilla and a few power weapons for a decent, if expensive, melee unit. Very nice with World Eaters.
- Tank Hunters and melta bombs for, funnily enough, tank hunting. A Dreadclaw is the perfect transport here.

The Sniper option really shines when compared to Fury of the Legion on Tacticals:
- let's say your 10 Tacticals want to Fury. Beforehand, they cannot have moved, arrived via Deep Strike or disembarked a transport. If you've also managed to plan ahead and put them within 12" of some MEQs, their bolters will do an average of 4.44 unsaved wounds with Fury. But they cannot then Overwatch that turn or fire in the Shooting Phase next turn.
- now you have 10 Sniper Veterans who want to shoot some MEQs. They have no special restrictions, so you can position them exactly as you want (within 12" say). If they've just exited a transport, no worries! They then do 3.7 unsaved wounds with their bolters (a combination of failed saves and Sniper wounds). You can then do another 3.7 unsaved wounds next turn, and you can Overwatch! This doesn't take cover into account, however, where the Sniper shots do lose their punch.

So Veterans are pretty solid. But if you gear them up, the price difference becomes considerably more noticeable. Veterans can get very expensive, AND THEY ARE ONLY A POWER-ARMOURED MARINE. They will also attract more attention than Tactical Marines, because they are more pricey and more threatening. Look after them though, and they will look after you.

LEGION SPECIFIC THOUGHTS

Emperor's Children - as far as theme is concerned, I feel like there should be more Veterans in the Emperor's Children Legion, given the quest for perfection. On the table they have a small combat bonus from Crusader, and their own Rite of War is not suited to anything less than 3000 points, so "Pride of the Legion" or "Chosen Duty" is an option for getting them as Troops.

Iron Warriors - I rarely see Iron Warriors lists with a Rite of War, except for "Pride of the Legion" with Siege Tyrant Terminators. Iron Warriors Legion traits are designed to let you weather attacks and not care about casualties. Losing multiple Veterans to enemy shooting is not a good game plan, even if they won't run away from said shooting, but having Wrecker on melta bombs is nice when they're a squad-wide option.

Imperial Fists - Budget Veterans could work very nicely with Sniper bolters and heavy bolters, as Disciplined Fire is a pretty solid Legion trait. "Stone Gauntlet" is a very strong Rite of War, so you'll probably have a lot of power-armoured bodies on the board already though.

Night Lords - with the availability of Terror Squads via the "Terror Assault" Rite of War, I don't see much use for Night Lords Veterans (Terror Squads have less customisation but better rules). This is an example where big units of Tacticals would be more advantageous (with Talent for Murder).

Iron Hands - Castrmen Orth as a compulsory HQ is too good to pass up, so I don't expect to see a lot of Iron Hands Veterans as Troops. If they field Ferrus Manus, then "The Head of the Gorgon" becomes the go-to Rite of War normally, as it has very few restrictions and some amazing bonuses that synergise with him. Would be cool to see some Toughness 4.5 Isstvan Veterans though.

World Eaters - this is one where I think it comes down to rules interpretation. This thread http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/'>http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/ discussed the idea that World Eaters Tacticals get free chainaxes. Thematically it makes sense, but who knows how it's meant to be interpreted. Anyway, WE Veterans should be geared up for combat - Furious Charge combined with their natural Rage would be pretty awesome. And their Rite of War requires an additional Troops choice, so "Pride of the Legion" or "Chosen Duty" may be an option. 

Ultramarines - not going to lie, "The Logos Lectora" is not a great Rite of War. Budget Veterans could definitely be an option for Ultramarines with "Pride of the Legion" or "Chosen Duty".

Death Guard - "The Reaping" is pretty awesome, it has few requirements, though I'd expect to see more Heavy Support Squads than Veterans as non-compulsory Troops. Also, when running Morturg as your Warlord for mass Infiltrate means no Veterans as Troops. What I said about Iron Warriors pretty much applies here too, i.e. weathering attacks on Veterans is not advised.

Sons of Horus - with Maloghurst and Horus both making Veterans into Troops (without taking a Rite of War) I feel like this is the army with the most to gain from them. You could use "Orbital Assault" squads with Tank Hunters to take down enemy armour, or combo-charge units with Furious Charge and Rage using their own "Black Reaving". Definitely worth a look.

Word Bearers - there is an option here for Budget Veterans, except I often see Word Bearers running Dark Brethren for the Daemon allies. Still, take Erebus, Kor Phaeron or Zardu Layak for your Daemons and then you can utilise "Pride of the Legion", as they are less likely to run away.

Salamanders - Sniper Veterans with 2 heavy flamers striking at Strength 6 is pretty awesome. "Pride of the Legion" will work on Firedrakes too, so you could get your 2 Troops that way. Another cool Isstvan Veterans option. Like Word Bearers, they are less likely to run away too. "Covenant of Fire" is pretty good though, especially if you have multiple tanks.

Raven Guard - despite the Isstvan Veterans theme being cool, Alvarex Maun and "Decapitation Strike" is too good to pass up. It's hard to find a role for Veterans in this Legion, as they really have everything covered well.

Alpha Legion - they have Autilon Skorr, the Delegatus special character, so you'd expect to see "Chosen Duty" occasionally, and "Pride of the Legion" seems to ring thematically with Martial Hubris. You can also equip them with venom spheres for Hammer of Wrath, or Banestrike bolter rounds for pseudo-Sniper, but neither option is great. "Orbital Assault" and Armillus Dynat is very strong - 10 Tank Hunter Veterans with melta bombs in a Dreadclaw can end almost any armoured threat with Dynat's The Harrowing bonus. Veteran Tactics also overlays with Mutable Tactics for some bonus points too.

Hope everyone has some thoughts and ideas to add!

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

1; Why are you taking True Grit Tactical Marines? 20pts goes a long way. Sure, you're judging it against Veterans, who have the same options, but if you're taking Tacticals, you're going for budget. That's Either/or, not both. It's a 50pt Difference.

 

2; 2 Scoring Tactical Troops is 20 Tactical Marines, sat on an objective or two, going to ground. It's 300pts "wasted", but not really. 20 Tactical bodies can be hard to shift, and for an opponent, they need to target prioritise the important things; is it the Red Butchers or the Firedrakes charging down his centre along with the Grav spamming Breachers in the middle? Or is it the 20 Tactical Marines firing off 20 Snapshots, maybe killing 1 Tactical Marine/turn in their combined firepower? The enemy has a resource allotment in the amount of units he can target. The guys doing nothing are rarely those.

 

3; Tacticals are a unit tax. If you're wanting to run a squad which can do something, you suck up the points, and run 15+ Breachers with 3 or Graviton Guns, a Vigilator, and be brash about putting them in the middle of your opponents line. Even better if you're RG or AL and can infiltrate them.

 

4; Veterans die easy. Easier than Tacticals, because for the extra 100pts you've put into Veterans, you've got another 5 men for each squad. Veterans die very easily too, because not only are they more points per model, but they're more threatening, and so a higher priority target. But additionally, you've spent more resources on, so need to get your use out of them, which means an opponent is noticing what you do with them, rather than those 2 units of 10 bolter armed tac dudes who've not spotted anything. Finally Veterans die even easier because your opponent gets a VP for killing them, and they're no tougher than a normal Tac squad. Whereas a draw for holding 1 objective each and contesting the centre, you've now given the opponent a win, simply because you chose to use Veterans

 

5; Veterans are Bolters. Bolters suck in 30k. In 40k, sure, they're ace. They have defined targets frequently available. Sniper Bolters in 40K doesn't make them any better at what they do though, really; they're not poisoned so don't get the reroll to wound against T3, and the pseudorend doesn't help any against 5+ saves. Monstrous Creatures; since when has Sniper even been very good at taking down MC's? 20 shots is 13 hits. 6-7 wounds, maybe 1 Rend, and 2 unsaved wounds. Sounds like a good trade, until you have to roll perfectly and can't lose a single man before taking down the same Carnifex who'll be hitting you in his next assault phase.

 

As for Fury of the Legion, it lets you fire twice at full range so your objective holders have something more interesting to do. It amuses me how many times people keep trying to get a full fury of the legion off at 12" range for a squad. It's a

[Theredknight]

If im using a quick objective stealing force it's plain tacs in rhino with combi weapon sarge and on rhino. Reason is those two meltas might pop another vehicle/ mc.

And as hesh says, they are low priority.

They will generally be shooting at the 2 units of 15 with apothecary moving up into charge range, or other stuff.

[Monkeychunks]

5; Veterans are Bolters. Bolters suck in 30k. In 40k, sure, they're ace. They have defined targets frequently available. Sniper Bolters in 40K doesn't make them any better at what they do though, really; they're not poisoned so don't get the reroll to wound against T3, and the pseudorend doesn't help any against 5+ saves. Monstrous Creatures; since when has Sniper even been very good at taking down MC's? 20 shots is 13 hits. 6-7 wounds, maybe 1 Rend, and 2 unsaved wounds. Sounds like a good trade, until you have to roll perfectly and can't lose a single man before taking down the same Carnifex who'll be hitting you in his next assault phase.

 

Not that I'm ignoring the rest of your points here, but to me that sounds like 'Between a single shooting phase, and the resulting Overwatch/3A per model, you're downing a Monstrous Creature every turn'. Equal points of Tacticals would be looking at half the damage output. And while there aren't many Carnifex striding around 30k, there are plenty of Castellax.

I'm going to take the really boring road here and suggest that they aren't meant to be competing units that are one-or-the-other, but that they both have clearly defined utility and can be combined or worked with allies to achieve totally different aims.

Veterans are actually pretty scary damage-dealers when working with Sniper. It's like popping Fury every turn, with none of the downsides, along with thrice the combat potential and the flexibility of complementary special weapons. On the flipside, they are obviously more expensive at 25/15 per model compared with 15/10.

Conversely, Tacticals are obviously far tougher. Not only are they far cheaper for the same profile, but they come in blobs twice the size (And at a not dissimilar price point). It's also much easier to justify an Apothecary at that point, to really pile on the Wounds.

 

I think that Veterans are far easier to justify as a full 10-man squad, since at that point it's 'only' a 50pt premium* over an equally-sized Tactical Squad for a pretty formidable set of upgrades. Since you're paying for offensive output only, obviously they demand to be fielded in a role where that can actually be applied as a guarantee; Alpha Legion and Raven Guard to Infiltrate them for Turn-1 massed Bolter fire, or an Anvillus Pod for a safe melee application. Maybe get some Grav-Rapiers to slow the enemy and prevent them closing to leverage as much firepower.

 

I'm not suggesting that Veterans are better than Tacticals, but they definitely do have a place. The real loss IMO is that you cannot combine them with Decapitation Strike, but I'd certainly be interested to see what a Raven Guard army looks like without relying on the tried-and-tested.

 

 

*And the opportunity cost of a Rite of War.

[norngahl]

Propably depends on the rest of the army as well.

 

Veterans are rather an aggressive element, not very durable compared to other units, high damage output due to sniper/special weapons/increased CC stats and powerweapons. The sniper is a nice little bonus in terms of shooting, but you still don't want them as pure shooters for this, especially because their CC abilities get wasted if you do so. So you got to play them in a combi-role, be a bit CC, be a bit shooty, be a bit AT while beeing mobile. This easily ends in 370+ points per unit when you field them in a dreadclaw (assuming you take 10 with sniper, vexilla, 2x powerweapons, 2x meltaguns, artificer armour). A rhino is cheaper, but doens't support their CC abilities. Some armies can field veterans as troops through characters, while going for orbital assault as well. Veterans in Drop Pods are quite nice and enough, rather than taking a dreadclaw, tbh. But that are only a few armies that can do this. So when you take Veterans, prepare to invest around 750 points to make them work as good as intended.. Quite a hefty point investment, but not the worst, just keep in mind they are troop choices and it is hard to make troops killy or getting their points back, as they are rather tax. A nice way to make your tax work. BUT you have to invest into an HQ that makes them troops as well. Keep that in mind while comparing taxes.

 

Tacticals are the opposite. They are defensive and work best in defensive lists. With an apothecary in cover they can eat some serious pain (beside a typhon or units with a lot of powerweapons). But I'd rather have a sword than an armour, when you compare them to veterans. I'm not a huge fan of blobs, yeah, they are not that easy to remove from the board, but they won't remove much in return.

 

But: Tacticals are the cheapest troop choice. When you play small points (2000 and less) and run out of points for the truly killy stuff, they are a nice option to save points. You can either buy, say 10 naked marines and 2 predators, or 10 veterans in a dreadclaw.

 

 

 

Once all important slots are taken, troops get more important.. so I say good troops are getting more important in higher point games, when you can't take better stuff instead of troops anymore.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

5; Veterans are Bolters. Bolters suck in 30k. In 40k, sure, they're ace. They have defined targets frequently available. Sniper Bolters in 40K doesn't make them any better at what they do though, really; they're not poisoned so don't get the reroll to wound against T3, and the pseudorend doesn't help any against 5+ saves. Monstrous Creatures; since when has Sniper even been very good at taking down MC's? 20 shots is 13 hits. 6-7 wounds, maybe 1 Rend, and 2 unsaved wounds. Sounds like a good trade, until you have to roll perfectly and can't lose a single man before taking down the same Carnifex who'll be hitting you in his next assault phase.

 

Not that I'm ignoring the rest of your points here, but to me that sounds like 'Between a single shooting phase, and the resulting Overwatch/3A per model, you're downing a Monstrous Creature every turn'. Equal points of Tacticals would be looking at half the damage output. And while there aren't many Carnifex striding around 30k, there are plenty of Castellax.

I'm going to take the really boring road here and suggest that they aren't meant to be competing units that are one-or-the-other, but that they both have clearly defined utility and can be combined or worked with allies to achieve totally different aims.

Veterans are actually pretty scary damage-dealers when working with Sniper. It's like popping Fury every turn, with none of the downsides, along with thrice the combat potential and the flexibility of complementary special weapons. On the flipside, they are obviously more expensive at 25/15 per model compared with 15/10.

Conversely, Tacticals are obviously far tougher. Not only are they far cheaper for the same profile, but they come in blobs twice the size (And at a not dissimilar price point). It's also much easier to justify an Apothecary at that point, to really pile on the Wounds.

 

I think that Veterans are far easier to justify as a full 10-man squad, since at that point it's 'only' a 50pt premium* over an equally-sized Tactical Squad for a pretty formidable set of upgrades. Since you're paying for offensive output only, obviously they demand to be fielded in a role where that can actually be applied as a guarantee; Alpha Legion and Raven Guard to Infiltrate them for Turn-1 massed Bolter fire, or an Anvillus Pod for a safe melee application. Maybe get some Grav-Rapiers to slow the enemy and prevent them closing to leverage as much firepower.

 

I'm not suggesting that Veterans are better than Tacticals, but they definitely do have a place. The real loss IMO is that you cannot combine them with Decapitation Strike, but I'd certainly be interested to see what a Raven Guard army looks like without relying on the tried-and-tested.

 

 

*And the opportunity cost of a Rite of War.

 

Upgrades that increase your units threat, and costs more to so. You're paying more to expedite their deaths.

[Brofist]

I play exclusively 1850-1500 points. At these lower point levels it's really hard to make Veterans worth the extra points spent. It's also important to factor in that, if you do take POL without a Delegatus, loosing all your veterans gives up a victory point. Giving up an HQ slot to take more expensive compulsory troops and potentially loosing out on an additional victory point? Hard to justify unless your list is built entirely around it, which is hard to do at low point levels.

[Terminus]

You play Legion armies at 1850-1500 points? That's insanity.

[v6v77]

You play Legion armies at 1850-1500 points? That's insanity.

He isnt alone. Those of us who dont have a 30k scene near us have to suffer such troubles.

 

On the subject of veterans vs tacticals. Marines are marines. 3+ on T4 may have been good once, but coming up against alot of armies (and alot of the good stuff in the heresy) they struggle to survive long enough to make a difference. Just my two cents.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I play exclusively 1850-1500 points. At these lower point levels it's really hard to make Veterans worth the extra points spent. It's also important to factor in that, if you do take POL without a Delegatus, loosing all your veterans gives up a victory point. Giving up an HQ slot to take more expensive compulsory troops and potentially loosing out on an additional victory point? Hard to justify unless your list is built entirely around it, which is hard to do at low point levels.

Speaketh the truth doth the man.

 

At higher levels, you don't spend more points to take more marines. You take more points to field more Typhons, Fire Raptors, Scorpius... You know, the splody things that are more fun to use, rather than picking up 40 dice and throwing them repeatedly before removing 3 enemy Tacticals.

[Brofist]

You play Legion armies at 1850-1500 points? That's insanity.

 

I like it a lot, actually, as it forces you to make hard choices about which units to take and how they contribute to your overall strategy

 

 

 

I play exclusively 1850-1500 points. At these lower point levels it's really hard to make Veterans worth the extra points spent. It's also important to factor in that, if you do take POL without a Delegatus, loosing all your veterans gives up a victory point. Giving up an HQ slot to take more expensive compulsory troops and potentially loosing out on an additional victory point? Hard to justify unless your list is built entirely around it, which is hard to do at low point levels.

Speaketh the truth doth the man.

 

At higher levels, you don't spend more points to take more marines. You take more points to field more Typhons, Fire Raptors, Scorpius... You know, the splody things that are more fun to use, rather than picking up 40 dice and throwing them repeatedly before removing 3 enemy Tacticals.

 

Word. This is my attitude too. At higher points I'd rather use the points saved to ally in admech or take more of the cost effective legion units. I think veterans can work in some specific lists, but in most cases I feel you give up more by tailoring your army around them than if you just left them out.

[Caillum]

Great discussion everyone! I find nothing here I really disagree with, either way. Everyone has their own opinion of the power rating of units. And I fully intended on discussing the negatives from "Pride of the Legion" and "Chosen Duty", but completely forgot to add it in. Might edit it in, as I would like this thread to be an ongoing Tactica for the subject matter.

 

I think the point I was trying to put across is this: Troop Veterans have a place in some army lists, there's no doubt about it. Not everyone rates them, but they can be very effective.

 

Would be great if people could outline their Tactical and Veteran units, and the place they have in their lists. Will help everyone find some perspective and see strengths and weaknesses of each option. :)

[Reyner]

An expensive but fun use of Veterans is to run them with the Iron Warriors Rite of War... Load them up on Plasmaguns and a couple of power weapons, then rapid fire something and assault it. Do people see fun there when mixing it with the Sniper USR or maybe even Outflank just to finish a dug in Rapier team or something? 

[Brofist]

Would be great if people could outline their Tactical and Veteran units, and the place they have in their lists. Will help everyone find some perspective and see strengths and weaknesses of each option.

Legion troops are expensive for how much you 'invest' to make them useful. If kept naked sitting around holding objectives they are pricy compared to cheap line units like solar aux or IA. In practice this basically means you try to take the minimum amount to do a particular job and then spend your points on better more economical options.

I play Iron Hands and Iron Warriors. For IHs, you have the advantage of tough troops. This makes blobs more difficult to gun down and makes naked objective campers a bit more reliable. You have to worry about leadership though, so you still invest more than needed into the squads. I tend to run a single x20 man blob with an attached navigator, apothecary, and chaplain. This makes a tough, slow, anchor for my army that moves up the board. It takes a lot of firepower to gun down, but is very vulnerable to big blast templates. My 40K meta doesn't have many of those, so they tend to move up the board, fury a few times, and either take a central objective or contest one in my opponent's deployment zone. For my other compulsory option I take a naked squad in a rhino or drop pod with a standard. Neither of these are cheap so I ally in AdMech for better scoring troops.

Iron Warriors get the short end when it comes to legion rules, but not taking leadership checks against shooting attacks at least lets you keep their squads small and cheap. No need to spend points on standards or make big squads. I either keep the squads naked on backfield objectives or load them up into rhinos. Again, I ally in AdMech for better scoring troops that will do work for me.

If I ever took veterans it would for the sniper rule to gun down tough to wound targets like rapiers or castellax. PoL is worse than the Delegatus, so that would be my go-to HQ. I think armies like WB and Iron Warriors get the most use out of x10 man sniper vet squads as they can basically not worry about leadership. But now your troops are in harms way doing work, so you'll want to ally in something cheap to camp your backfield. This begs the question though- wouldn't it just be more cost effective to take naked tactical squads and let more specialist units hunt castellax and rapiers?

[WolfOfHorus]

Good to see people using Navigators. Instant Death Flamer FTW!

 

On topic, the only Legion I run that extensively uses Tacticals is World Eaters because the wording of Chainaxes being free. I fully abuse that and run upwards to 45-60 Tacs in 1850 game. A 15 man squad seems to be the perfect balance of cost and flexibility.

[Theredknight]

I play ec and Tac blobs of 16/20, changed out to ccw. Apothecary and tooled sarge.

They move up with a character with a sonic shrieker. (Chaplain or champion atm) and one takes a void shield harness.

[Caillum]

Point well made about specialist units for MCs and Rapiers. But I can also see the appeal of a cheap, compulsory HQ Iron Warriors Delegatus for "Chosen Duty", as he'll likely just sit backfield whilst giving you budget Sniper Vets. Mechanicum allies are also an awesome option! I have been considering them for my Terror Assault army, as a Praevian takes up the single valuable Consul choice, and I'd like that to be flexible.

 

On topic, the only Legion I run that extensively uses Tacticals is World Eaters because the wording of Chainaxes being free. I fully abuse that and run upwards to 45-60 Tacs in 1850 game. A 15 man squad seems to be the perfect balance of cost and flexibility.

Do you use Veterans in other Legions then?

[depthcharge12]

 

 

I play exclusively 1850-1500 points. At these lower point levels it's really hard to make Veterans worth the extra points spent. It's also important to factor in that, if you do take POL without a Delegatus, loosing all your veterans gives up a victory point. Giving up an HQ slot to take more expensive compulsory troops and potentially loosing out on an additional victory point? Hard to justify unless your list is built entirely around it, which is hard to do at low point levels.

Speaketh the truth doth the man.

 

At higher levels, you don't spend more points to take more marines. You take more points to field more Typhons, Fire Raptors, Scorpius... You know, the splody things that are more fun to use, rather than picking up 40 dice and throwing them repeatedly before removing 3 enemy Tacticals.

It is regrettable that it comes down to an arms race of bigger guns rather than legion strengths fighting eachother. My group tries to do 2500-3000 points before Super heavies.

[Kriegriss]

it also depends on meta if you zone mortalis or super dense terrain cities of death with multiple levels the lack of big vehicles and flexibility of vets is great in my opinion but the people I play with are more theme and narrative driven then most and we enjoy small games with lots of infantry cause it's boring to just line up tanks and throw around big blast templates but to each his own I love vets cause I can say "hey man they all got bolter this game" and then next weekend I can say let's try power swords and furious charge just for fun but I suppose that has nothing to do with game effectiveNess so do feel free to ignore the noise I'm making

[WolfOfHorus]

Do you use Veterans in other Legions then?

Yes, extensively in my SoH force. Maloghurst does wonders.

 

My favorite load out is a Ten man with melta bombs in a dreadclaw, killed many superheavies with that load out.

[disease]

i was thinkng about a Death Guard list that involves (at it's core) Crysis Morturg, 2x 20man in flare shielded spartans and 2x 5man vets with melta bombs and heavy flamers. The idea being that Morturg can ifiltrate the vets or I can give them outflank.  

any good?

[Fangbanger]

 

Do you use Veterans in other Legions then?

Yes, extensively in my SoH force. Maloghurst does wonders.

My favorite load out is a Ten man with melta bombs in a dreadclaw, killed many superheavies with that load out.

I think for the same points (or maybe cheaper?) I'd rather have a 5 man fist & chainfist squad in the pod. More resilient for the same job

[Caillum]

 

 

Do you use Veterans in other Legions then?

Yes, extensively in my SoH force. Maloghurst does wonders.

My favorite load out is a Ten man with melta bombs in a dreadclaw, killed many superheavies with that load out.

I think for the same points (or maybe cheaper?) I'd rather have a 5 man fist & chainfist squad in the pod. More resilient for the same job

Comparable points-wise, and probably comparable effectiveness:

- Vets have 2x wounds, Terminators have a 2+ save.

- Terminators will have the advantage against low AV with more attacks via the power fists.

- Vets will have the advantage against high AV with Armourbane & Tank Hunters.

- Terminators don't require Sons of Horus to take a Dreadclaw DT though.

[Fangbanger]

I think another thing to note is that if the target is a spartan, whatever is in it will destroy the vets no problem. The termies will be more resilient and have a better chance of holding that unit up until it can get re-enforced. Also worth noting for just over the same points as arming the vets with melts bombs, you can arm 3 terminators with chain fists getting 9 armourbane attacks on the charge

[Fangbanger]

Or if it's my world eaters, its 12!

 

Edit: the maths comes in at the vets being 10 points more without any other upgrades for (10 x vets with bombs vs 5 terminators 2 x fist, 3 x chainfist)

 

Termies all the way