Grim Dog Studios Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Hi all, I recently bought some Vallejo black primer for use with my airbrush as I am absolutely at priming with a spray can, usually doing it too thick and obscuring details, or too lightly and it doesnt cover properly. So, I bought this one http://elementgames.co.uk/paints-washes-etc/vallejo-paints/model-air/acrylic-polyurethane-primer-602-black. As I primed my test figure with it everything went well. I allowed it to dry for a while and then proceeded to pre-shade and basecoat etc. It was after the basecoat had dried that I caught the shoulderpad, coincidentally a FW resin one, and the paint chipped off. I attributed this to possibly me not being thorough when washing the resin. However, I decided to test it elsewhere on the mini (which was plastic everywhere else), and lightly scratched at the shin guard and the paint came off. So I decided just how far I could go with it and now I have a bare plastic and resin marine again aside from the small details etc which I couldn't get at with a finger nail. Now, I don't know if its because I have not given the primer enough time to dry or whether the primer itself is not suitable. It's going to be mainly used for FW resin in the future when I actually sit down and settle on a legion. Any advice would be greatly appreciated concerning this, and if the primer itself is not suitable, is there any others that would work nicely when airbrushed on that I could try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I had the same issue with vallejo grey primer. I tried cleaning the models beforehand, different PSI's and thickness of coats, drying times of 24 hours to a week, varnishing after priming, a new bottle from a different seller, everything you could think of and it still came off with a very light scratch (fingernail test, like you did). A whole lot of people swear by the stuff, but I haven't a clue how/why they don't have the same problem. I had to switch to lacquer eventually, which is really serious stuff all things considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 It may not be the same cause but I had the same problem with the white Vallejo primer but it turned out that I hadn't shaken the bottle properly. When I say shake... there was a lot of pigment deposited in the bottom and I was flailing my arm around for a good minute or two before it looked to have all gone. Black and black red ones worked no problems though and adhered to everything really well, the only exception being the occasional metal model where i've knocked or rubbed an edge whilst painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Dog Studios Posted August 19, 2015 Author Share Posted August 19, 2015 Hmm, how bizarre. I shook for a good few minutes because I've made the mistake of not shaking paints properly before. I'll try to have another go, maybe leave it to dry a bit longer too. Would varnishing the model before primer do any good do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amayasu Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 A friend of mine has had the same thing with the lighter primers. In the end he always primed black, which adhered well, and then primed white. It added something to the model too, as you get a little shading for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I've seen a good few people suggest varnishing before priming but I haven't personally tried it. Just out of interest, did you thin it and what kind of PSI/distance were you spraying at? I normally use a slightly higher PSI (25-30) (as it's not thinned) at a distance of around 8-10cm at a rough estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Dog Studios Posted August 19, 2015 Author Share Posted August 19, 2015 About 20 PSI at about 10cm range, its hard to remember the range haha. But I usually use 20 PSI when Airbrushing, so I will knock it up to 25-30ish and give that a go too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexagon Sun Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 That might be worth a shot as I know sometimes people have had issues with it drying before it hits the model which could explain it not adhering properly. That particular primer shrinks while it dries so don't be afraid to put a fairly decent coat on as it shouldn't obscure the details! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I prime with Humbrol's Matt sprays, depending on what I'm painting. Dark Green 30 for Sons of Horus, something something black and grey for most other things. Other than that GW's Corax White spray is alright; it's a little bit off white, but the coverage is nice and it doesn't obscure detail like the black spray does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I've had the same problem with both Vellejo black and gray. I've never found a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW1 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Are you diluting it and what with? Anything other than the airbrush thinner they sell I find has a negative impact on the primer. My main issue with the primers is the airbrush needing a lot more cleaning that with normal airbrush paints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Dog Studios Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 I didn't dilute it at all as I was under the impression it was already thinned enough for use! Can't have another go until I get paid now as I was only using a crappy airbrush but i broke the needle on it when cleaning it, so I'm going to have to buy a decent one! Offtopic but is the Iwata Neo Airbrush any good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonBased Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I didn't dilute it at all as I was under the impression it was already thinned enough for use! Can't have another go until I get paid now as I was only using a crappy airbrush but i broke the needle on it when cleaning it, so I'm going to have to buy a decent one! Offtopic but is the Iwata Neo Airbrush any good? I use a Neo, it's a decent brush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Another Neo user here. A solid brush, no doubt, especially for the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 For what it's worth, I've tried spraying VA primer at different PSI, using two brushes, at different distances and also shot it straight, cut with different things, etc. Nothing I do seems to make a difference and I can't get it to stick at all. I've pretty much given up on it, to be honest. Also, I have a Robart paint shaker (don't make fun of me, the thing is great) so I don't think shaking it is the issue. Maybe some batches have a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I actually had great success priming with the Vallejo grey primer through an airbrush. Couldn't tell you what the needle size is, I bought my paasche a long time ago. But I was using PSI of around 15 through 50... testing out a new compressor I purchased, I personally preferred the higher pressure but am no expert. There was one slight difference, I added Vallejo Flow Improver to it, for 10 drops primer, I added around 3 or 4 drops of Flow Improver. You might not even need that much, but I can safely say that I had no issues with the flow from the air brush and coverage of my models. YMMV Edit: Oh, yes, Shake WELL before use. No idea why the Primer wouldn't stick, just check the models are clean and you've not re-greased them with dirty fingers etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I actually had great success priming with the Vallejo grey primer through an airbrush. Couldn't tell you what the needle size is, I bought my paasche a long time ago. But I was using PSI of around 15 through 50... testing out a new compressor I purchased, I personally preferred the higher pressure but am no expert. There was one slight difference, I added Vallejo Flow Improver to it, for 10 drops primer, I added around 3 or 4 drops of Flow Improver. You might not even need that much, but I can safely say that I had no issues with the flow from the air brush and coverage of my models. YMMV Edit: Oh, yes, Shake WELL before use. No idea why the Primer wouldn't stick, just check the models are clean and you've not re-greased them with dirty fingers etc. Getting it on the model is one thing, but have you tested the durability? Mine sprayed on fine, but couldn't stand up to a simple fingernail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 In cleaning up the edges, I know that it will scrape off like a layer of PVC glue coating your fingers... but beyond that I don't try to 'man-handle' a model until I've painted it a bit and did a varnish coat to seal in the layers. Sure, having just checked, you can take the layer off of rivets (or detail) if you actively scratch your nails over the rivets (tested on a bottom of one of my tanks), not so easily on flat sections. So my suggestion would be, if you prime it and paint a base layer, seal it in with a light coat of varnish etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I can confirm that it scratches off easily with a light fingernail scrape. There's more to this story for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daevyll Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I have had the same experience I can confirm that it scratches off easily with a light fingernail scrape. There's more to this story for sure. I've had the same experience, highly annoying. My current favourite way of priming is brushing on diluted Imperial Primer from GW, believe it or not. It flows out over the model and provided a very even, very tough layer on the mini. The time needed to brush this on with a nice soft large brush is not significant overall. It is not opaque in covering however, and makes the mini look like it has received a heavy black wash over bare plastic/resin. Once that is dry, I do a 'normal' airbrush spray undercoat in whatever color I'm using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscuzzy Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The primary role of a primer is to allow for a good surface for further layers of paint to adhere to, meaning that the original primer layer can be crucial to how well the foundations for this job lie. Some primers perform this by sticking well to the model, but also, a common added component to good primers is a binder that not only sticks to the models, but also itself. Some use vinyl, rubber etc. and these allow the components to hold on to each other AND to the model. Vallejo primer does this. Sadly, Vallejo primer is also water based. Water based primers usually suffer from larger molecules and don't adhere as well to the surface of models, which makes it easy to scratch off. Curing (24hrs) does help, but it is not good for wear and tear, which is possibly the market Vallejo was targeting: painters, not gamers. As we constantly handle our models (and possibly hold the model itself while painting which is usually consider bad form), we inadvertently will scratch the paint off. Most aerosol primers contain a form of thinner, which can be quite detrimental if not handled properly. Considering they are in can form, the usage of the can matters, as does temperature, humidity, distance etc. Aerosols do have a very distinct advantage: the paint contained are aerosolized with the thinner, and thus create a finer, stronger bond to the plastic materials (It actually eats into the plastics). This is also in part as to how the pigments work with the thinner, but generally, a can primer will perform better. The next alternative is to have thinner based primers fed through the airbrush, which allows for both control and the thinner effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I have had the same experience I can confirm that it scratches off easily with a light fingernail scrape. There's more to this story for sure. I've had the same experience, highly annoying. My current favourite way of priming is brushing on diluted Imperial Primer from GW, believe it or not. It flows out over the model and provided a very even, very tough layer on the mini. The time needed to brush this on with a nice soft large brush is not significant overall. It is not opaque in covering however, and makes the mini look like it has received a heavy black wash over bare plastic/resin. Once that is dry, I do a 'normal' airbrush spray undercoat in whatever color I'm using. You might start a flamewar with this crazy talk of a GW product not sucking. :P Just kidding. I might have to actually try that. The primary role of a primer is to allow for a good surface for further layers of paint to adhere to, meaning that the original primer layer can be crucial to how well the foundations for this job lie. Some primers perform this by sticking well to the model, but also, a common added component to good primers is a binder that not only sticks to the models, but also itself. Some use vinyl, rubber etc. and these allow the components to hold on to each other AND to the model. Vallejo primer does this. Sadly, Vallejo primer is also water based. Water based primers usually suffer from larger molecules and don't adhere as well to the surface of models, which makes it easy to scratch off. Curing (24hrs) does help, but it is not good for wear and tear, which is possibly the market Vallejo was targeting: painters, not gamers. As we constantly handle our models (and possibly hold the model itself while painting which is usually consider bad form), we inadvertently will scratch the paint off. Most aerosol primers contain a form of thinner, which can be quite detrimental if not handled properly. Considering they are in can form, the usage of the can matters, as does temperature, humidity, distance etc. Aerosols do have a very distinct advantage: the paint contained are aerosolized with the thinner, and thus create a finer, stronger bond to the plastic materials (It actually eats into the plastics). This is also in part as to how the pigments work with the thinner, but generally, a can primer will perform better. The next alternative is to have thinner based primers fed through the airbrush, which allows for both control and the thinner effect. You've proven yourself a mad genius many times over, so I'd love to hear what you use to spray through your airbrush. I'll try just about anything if it gets good results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscuzzy Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Erm... thanks? Not genius but rather... experimental. I'll be frank though. I keep my priming through spray cans still, unless I have no choice. For the spray cans, I keep a light coat... more like dusting, and use the airbrush to fill in spots as need be. The can spray will cover all the areas that need to be touched, and the vallejo primer through the airbrush can hit the harder to reach areas. For can sprays, I stick to just hardware store matt blacks (surprise surprise) but not those with really high thinner content. (basically not the super cheap ones). For greys I like to use Tamiya Grey Primer. It is really fine yet adheres well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffTibbetts Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Erm... thanks? Not genius but rather... experimental. I'll be frank though. I keep my priming through spray cans still, unless I have no choice. For the spray cans, I keep a light coat... more like dusting, and use the airbrush to fill in spots as need be. The can spray will cover all the areas that need to be touched, and the vallejo primer through the airbrush can hit the harder to reach areas. For can sprays, I stick to just hardware store matt blacks (surprise surprise) but not those with really high thinner content. (basically not the super cheap ones). For greys I like to use Tamiya Grey Primer. It is really fine yet adheres well enough. Hey, I'll take it. I use rattle cans once in a while but I'd prefer not to if I can help it. I trust your advice, though. And I'm sticking with mad genius because land train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 If you insist on priming with an airbrush, you can bite the bullet like i did and switch to lacquer. This stuff is heavy duty, though. You need solid ventilation, a respirator/filter mask thingy, etc. The fumes will melted your brainstuff... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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