Corbulo Far-Seeing Eye question.

[ÆtherOwl]

Back in 6th edition codex, Corbulos Far-Seeing Eye rule specifies that it is only your roll which may be rerolled, but in 7th edition codex I see no specification.

 

Does this mean I can force my opponent to reroll his/her own successful seize the initiative roll for example?

 

If Corbulo can force his enemies to make rerolls for their own rolls I believe this makes his Far Seeing Eye vasty superior, would love some clarification on this.

[Brother_Mike]

Yes, you seem to be right. And if you attempt to reroll and opponent's dice in a game and they argue with you, you can make a pretty convincing argument in your favor.

 

From a fluff standpoint, it seems to be stretching things a bit, but a fluff based argument for rerolling an opponent's dice could be viable as well.

 

Very interesting...

[evildrcheese]

It's not unheard of to make your opponent reroll a successful Seize the Initiative roll, as Inquisitor Coteaz has a similar ability.

 

The wording also seems to suggest you could make an opponent reroll a successful saving throw...

 

D

[Brother Raul]

Brother aether owl thank you. That is pure genius. Had been trying to find a good reason to write a list around Corbs for a while now and that is gold.

 

Forcing a reroll on your opponents reserves or to seize are awesome. Could really turn a game to your advantage.

[Morticon]

Dont have my dex on me- but i'm convinced the verbiage refers to "you" or "yours".

 

May want to recheck that.

[Charlo]

Damn, they're right Mort!

Blood Angel codex page 61:

Far-Seeing Eye:

Once per game, as long as Corbulo has not been removed as a casulty, this ability may be used to do one of the following:

• Re-roll the dice to Sieze the Initiative.
• Re-roll the dice to see if a unit arrives from Reserve.
• Re-roll a single dice used in a To Hit or To Wound roll, or a single dice used in a saving throw.
• Re-roll a single scatter dice.

Well hot damn! Corbulo just got some Tzeench level shenanigans going on!

You could combine him with Coteaz and a Callidus Assassin to get a 4+ rerollable Sieze

[Morticon]

Wow.  That legit seems legit.

[Charlo]

Opponent: "I did it! against all odds I made the 6++ and now my warlord can win me the game!"

Corbulo: "Sanguinius says no."

Opponent: "Uhh, excuse me?"

Corbulo: "Yeah, our Primarch predicted this like 10,000 years again and you fail it. Re-roll that save."

Opponent: *rolls another 6*

Corbulo: "...screw this is Khorne still hiring?"

[Morticon]

You know- reading over that- the verbiage is SO specific.  EG:  "or a single dice used in a saving throw" 

 

There's NO reason you'd use that language if it wasn't intended to be used for both sides. So, so cool.  It specifically avoids the regular use of "failed" saving throw". 

So exciting.  Corbulo is looking to join the fray once more.

[Spagunk]

Which makes sense since they drastically reduced the options since the previous dex. Before he can reroll any one roll you make during a game. This reduces it to a set list but expands it out to you or your opponent.

 

I've never thought of it in this context but it has no reference to you or your army in any of the wording. Clever girl!

[Charlo]

I can already hear the screams of opponents, all in unison "wait... what? Let me see the codex! Where does it say that!"

[Xenith]

Sick. And Corby makes it back into the lists!

[Indefragable]

Corbulo: "Yeah, our Primarch predicted this like 10,000 years again and you fail it. Re-roll that save."

 

I spit out my coffee laughing.

 

Well put.

[Indefragable]

Ok, so now that Corbs is with the cool kids again...how do we fit him into a list?

 

The obvious answer would be "just replace a Sang Priest and find the points difference somewhere"...but what about we who tend to use SP with jump packs?

 

My only experience with Corbs is on small <1000pt games where he trudged with a BBQ Tactical ("Tacti-Q") squad or with Mephiston in a Vanguard Vet Squad with Stormshields. The latter was more of a fun proof-of-concept b/c of the cost.

 

But realistically, what's the best way to fit him in?

[Charlo]

I think like you said, add him and Mephiston in a small, but hitty unit of Vanguard Vets in an assault vehicle. Raven if you are Daring, LR if not, Caestus if you have one.

 

He'll benefit everything with +1 WS/I, FNP and some nice rending attacks. Even a small 5/6 man squads with a couple Shields and two special weapons will do the job I feel. Go for the throat and make that reroll game changing!

[Indefragable]

So this is a fun but silly list trying to get the most out of Corbulo's special rule. Only thing that would be even better would be adding Karlaen for Sieze bonus or Dante for re-roll to Stormraven

 

 

DETACHMENT ONE: Blood Angels Baal Strike Force 1020pts

 

HQ:

Mephiston

 

Brother Corbulo

 

TROOPS:

Cassor the Damned

 

Tactical Marine x 5

--Heavy Flamer

--Melta Bomb

Razorback

--Las/Plas

 

ELITES:

Vanguard Veteran x 5

--Storm Shield x 5

--Thunder Hammer x 1

--Lightning Claw x 2 (2x Vets each have 1)

--Plasma Pistol x 1

--Sgt. Relic Blade

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Stormraven Gunship

--TL Assault Cannon

--TL Multi-Melta

 

 

DETACHMENT TWO: Assassinorum 145pts

 

ELITES:

Callidus Assassin

 

 

DETACHMENT THREE: Imperial Guard Allied Detachment 835pts

 

HQ:

Company Command Squad

--Astropath

--Officer of the Fleet

--Lascannon

 

Primaris Psyker

--ML2

--Force Staff

 

Ministorum Priest

 

Commissar

--Bolt gun

 

TROOPS:

 

Infantry Platoon:

Platoon Command Squad:

 

Infantry Squad x 2 (Combined Squad)

--Guardsmen x 18

--Sgt x 2

 

Heavy Weapons Team

--Lascannon x 3

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Leman Russ Battle Tank x 2

 

 

Concept:

 

Commissar goes with the Blob squad of 20x guardsmen to find cover and/or hold near objective(s) and be an immovable pain in the ass.

 

Company Command Squad hunkers down behind ADL, using Quad Gun with Veterans' BS4. Astropath casts Invisibility if rolled well. Master of the Fleet gives +1 to Friendly Reserves or -1 to Enemy Reserves

 

Primaris Psyker goes with Lascannon HWT for Prescience and holds near objective, preferably up high in a spot to camp. Goes invisible by Astropath?

 

Leman Russes sit back and be terrifying nuisances

 

So the above should be enough of a pain in the ass to draw the enemy in and hopefully spread them out a bit. 2x Leman Russes alone should draw some serious fire.

 

Callidus F's with enemy reserves.

 

Razorback Squad swings out to capture other objectives and provide Fast, long-range AP2.

 

Stormraven comes in Turn 2 (it should with all the shenanigans going on), bearing Mephiston, Corbulo, Ministorum Priest, and the Vanguard Veterans plus Cassor in back. Pops into Hover mode, and unloads cargo. Mephy/Corbs Charge one way, Cassor the other. This provides 3x juicy targets all at once, forcing enemy threat overload.

 

In the death star, you got 5x 3++ Invulnerable Saves to Look Out Sir! with. Everyone has FNP from Corbulo. Everyone is striking at at least I5 (except Ministorum Priest). Everyone (except MP again) is at least WS5. Mephiston tanks with T5 2+ except against high-S/low-AP in which the Vets use their shields. The Ministorum Priest lets the whole unit re-roll either Armor or Invuln Saves or To-Hit in CQC. Mephy is attacking at I8 on the Charge.

 

5x Troops for holding Obj.

6x Warp Charges (including possible Invisibility)

2x AV14 Tanks to draw fire

-4 to first Enemy Reserves roll, possibly re-rolling with Corbulo

BS4 Quad Gun and Storm Raven for anti-air

Possible 2x Re-Rolls to Sieze? (Callidus and Corbulo)

[Sanguine_Blood]

I just brought this up with my local gaming group, and they are all of the opinion that Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye wouldn't affect your opponents rolls because it doesn't specifially say that it does. Apparently, and I have no ability right now to look up rules myself, all the other rules that would affect your opponent actually say they can affect your opponent. Because this doesn't say, they're of the opinion (And I agree with them) that the Far-seeing Eye would only affect your rolls.

 

So, just putting that out there fo everyone to mull over. And by all means keep playing the way you think it should work, but I have to side with my Gaming group on the ruling over this.

 

Now... C'mon GW, put out the bloody FAQ already and address this....!!!!!

 

Edit: Indefragable, you cannot reroll a reroll, so you wouldn't get 2x rerolls to sieze the initiative, just one.

[ÆtherOwl]

I just brought this up with my local gaming group, and they are all of the opinion that Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye wouldn't affect your opponents rolls because it doesn't specifially say that it does. Apparently, and I have no ability right now to look up rules myself, all the other rules that would affect your opponent actually say they can affect your opponent. Because this doesn't say, they're of the opinion (And I agree with them) that the Far-seeing Eye would only affect your rolls.

 

So, just putting that out there fo everyone to mull over. And by all means keep playing the way you think it should work, but I have to side with my Gaming group on the ruling over this.

 

Now... C'mon GW, put out the bloody FAQ already and address this....!!!!!

 

Edit: Indefragable, you cannot reroll a reroll, so you wouldn't get 2x rerolls to sieze the initiative, just one.

Still I find it as simple as this...

 

Specifies Opponent roll = only affects your opponents roll

 

Specifies it being your own roll = only affects you

 

No Specification = both you or opponent

 

Using your logic I could equally argue it only affects my opponents roll, cause it doesnt actually specify that it lets me reroll my own roll. If it doesnt specify one or the other, how is it you can say it only affects one or the other? You cant.

[Indefragable]

That's the real power of Corb's ability: causes you and your opponent to spend your whole time debating the rule so that you don't actually play, so that you don't actually lose, thus equalling a draw. Best used against a mean list that "can't be beat".

 

 

 

And I figured you couldn't re-roll things twice...

 

...but that brings up another question: Lemartes has Zealot and a Master-Crafted Crozius...so they negate each other?

[Sanguine_Blood]

That's the real power of Corb's ability: causes you and your opponent to spend your whole time debating the rule so that you don't actually play, so that you don't actually lose, thus equalling a draw. Best used against a mean list that "can't be beat".

 

 

 

And I figured you couldn't re-roll things twice...

 

...but that brings up another question: Lemartes has Zealot and a Master-Crafted Crozius...so they negate each other?

Yes they do, on the first round on combat. On second and subsequent turns you would get the 1 reroll from the weapon being mastercrafted. For the first rounds Zealot gives you the reroll, which is better because it affects all misses, not just 1.

[ÆtherOwl]

I figured you couldn't re-roll things twice...

No you cant reroll a reroll is what I understand. So if both you and your opponent can reroll the same dice, the decision should go to the players whos turn it is, since they have the initiative in choosing the order of events happening at the same time.

[Anderer]

Although I like the idea a lot I don't think it's viable. The usual wording for those kind of rules is "force your opponent to re-roll..." An example is Koteaz with his Spy network rule. Even then you do not re-roll your opponent's dice - he does it.

Corbulo's rule just tells we're allowed to re-roll dice not that we may force our opponents to do so. So, can we take our opponent's dice and roll it for him?

[Morticon]

Sanguineblood - this is a common misconception, or rather an oft misunderstood /misapplied concept. 

While it is true that 40k is a permissive rules set and we are told what we can do, not what we cant - we do not need to be "explicitly" told what we can do if the rule as written allows us to do it.  

 

We are told what we can do through what the rules (as they are written) *allow us* to do.

If taking an action requires the addition of a rule, or breaks an existing rule, then it is not valid.

 

This is not the case with this rule. 

 

"Once per game, as long as Corbulo has not been removed as a casulty, this ability may be used to do one of the following:

• Re-roll the dice to Sieze the Initiative.
• Re-roll the dice to see if a unit arrives from Reserve.
• Re-roll a single dice used in a To Hit or To Wound roll, or a single dice used in a saving throw.
• Re-roll a single scatter dice."

 

What you need to do is ask yourself if doing any of these actions (or forcing the player to do so) is against the written rule.

 

So, read it like this:  

"Once per game this ability may be used to re-roll the dice to size the initiative" .  

 

Has it stipulated that it is your dice?  

No.  

Its "the dice". 

Does the opponent's dice qualify as "the dice to sieze the initiative" ?

Yes.

Then, where's the problem?

 

Same applies for every subsequent allowance of reroll.

By virtue of it not being specific to the owning player it has by inference included the opponent in the wording used.  

Saying that it hasn't is (and no offence meant to your group) simply poor reading comprehension.  If their logic is to be followed, we cannot use it either, because it hasn't stipulated owning player either.

[evildrcheese]

The wording seems pretty clear to me:

 

The ability allows...

Re-roll a single dice used in a To Hit or To Wound roll, or a single dice used in a saving throw

 

It doesn't specify it has to be your roll, so my gaming group would have to do better than saying it lacks the word forces to convince me that it can't affect any roll from the stated categories.

 

If it came to a stalemate, I'd offer to roll off. I suppose if it had just stated 'your or your opponents' in brackets @ the end it would be fine but...eh, it's GW and they're not famed for clear rules writing!

 

D

[Sanguine_Blood]

Well you guys have fun using Corbulo!

Hopefully one day, when the planets align we'll get an FAQ... Somehow I have a feeling that an FAQ won't even address this.