Withershadow Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 The Graviton Imploder Ordinatus mentioned earlier is a pretty cute idea, but does anyone run non-Reductor/Cybernetica Mechanicum, like ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I do, mostly because I take them as allies and don't always want to take thallax. You're right that reductor has been the flavor of the latest codex though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Sadly it's kind of a no brainer right now unless you're going a niche build. Are you using robots in a decent capacity? - Cybernetica Do you want to run 4 Heavy Support? - Reductor Neither of them have any real downsides (well, nothing you don't experience outside of army building) and you can easily reap the benefits. But I suppose the flexibility is a fine reason not to, you can take a different kind of Arch Magos for one and keep your troops cheap with Thralls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'm tempted by siege wrecker but it seems like online is split about if they are good or not depending on where i've read. The Dominus were a bit pointless as it was a lot of points to try and repair stuff. It's money dude. I win fights I have no right to, simply because I'm punching at S10 AP2 Concussive. I had to fight a bit of a mirror match recently (he had one 4x Darkfre Castellax squad in a Reductor list, I had a squad of 3x Darkfire and 2x Darkfire, all with siege wreckers+targeters+frags). I won purely because despite whittling my wounds down to like 2-1-1 split between the three from shooting, he whiffed heavily to wound (needing 5's cos only S6 to my T7, his one Dominus kept failing too). I still lose one eventually, but he honestly could not roll a 5+ to save himself on the wounds. Whereas I was hitting on 4's, but wounding on 2's. The 2-strong squad charged in and smoked one of his Castellax straight up, then proceeded to help clean up the rest. I'll definitely get the Vultarax now, I didn't want to as they are a bit gimmicky but I need a way to pop tanks. The balancing factor is they have no invul and are useless against anything except vehicles. You will get salt for taking them, but honestly I think Hoplites are worse (as they score, can be taken freely without needing a specific list, can be transported etc). Cybernetica Archmagi are just awful, there is really no reason at all to include them. The two Domini, or maybe a third given the point level and number of bots, should be all you need. Yeah agree 100%. If they could cast two Cybertheurgy powers, or re-roll, or had anything resembling a decent melee weapon, I'd do it. As is, they're rocking a power axe at best, and +1 Leadership. They just don't do enough, despite being twice the base price. To disagree with Darius, as we so often do (must be the Greek vs. Persian thing ), I think the Machinator Arrays are definitely a nice investment, more so than the Abeyants. There are a LOT of powerfists, missiles, and yes, even meltaguns out there, and being immune to instant death from the vast majority of weapons is very solid. The extra couple of attacks are not bad when things get personal either. Abeyants for the extra wound and IWND is cool, but also makes them a much easier target and Hardened Armour is a straight up nerf (btw, does anyone with a copy of the new rulebook see if hardened armor is still the same?). Another point I would disagree on are the siege wreckers. Unless you're being drowned in Leviathans, more than 1 in a unit is quite wasteful. Like they're nice, but I don't consider them essential. If the enemy wants your Dominus dead, they will make it happen. I usually find Domini are mostly good for Cybetheurgy and maintaining the cortex network, any damage they do is nice but its not why you're taking them. In challenges, T5 or not, you probably die anyway (you only have 2 wounds). Hardened Armour isn't in the new rulebook :( or in the Mechanicum army book. I think it might be just in the Legion army book. What was the nerf to it? Disagree, I find siege wreckers very useful. Far more so than power blades or machinator array. It's 20pts for a reason, it makes Castellax terrifying in melee. Instant Death on anything T5 or less is huge, and with Rite of Celerity you can punch out Dreadnoughts ahead of their attacks coming in (a big problem for Cybernetica because they rip us to pieces in melee and Smash is unreliable). Pretty much every Legion player I see at events or in my local groups has at least one Leviathan and a couple of Dreads, its a relevant upgrade from that perspective. Also I have tank lists to deal with as well. By the way, how are people representing these beasties? I have given up waiting on them, and I still hope Domitars will have cool 8th edition rules so don't want to use them as a base just yet (getting there tho...). I am getting very close to asking my buddies to let me use the now useless-again (damn grenades) Vorax to represent my Arlatax. Instead of jump packs, they just jump like grasshoppers! Domitar conversions mostly, sometimes Iron Circle. I feel your pain dude :( but I can't bring myself to do it. I will wait for the official model till hell freezes over. I think Vorax are fine, they're just very much a suicide unit. Regarding kraks, in Cybernetica Cohort you're I5 so provided you gave them frags (which should be standard IMO), you will cut most Marine units to pieces before they swing. Nobody runs 20-man Tacticals anywhere I've seen, so at worst you're fighting 10-man squads. Between bio rounds on Overwatch, and swinging first, you should kill at least half the squad, so they maybe kill 1 Vorax then either get swept or die in the following round. Tech-Thralls are nice, they definitely are the 'correct' utility Troops you should be taking. I like going full robots because its more fun, and I hate the Tech-Thrall model (not to mention they cost the moon for what they are). The Graviton Imploder Ordinatus mentioned earlier is a pretty cute idea, but does anyone run non-Reductor/Cybernetica Mechanicum, like ever? Yeah I see them from time to time. Tim from EoH runs a triple Triaros list with a tonne of Tech-Thralls + other stuff. I also see a lot of garbage Cybernetica lists online and offline, actually good pure lists are uncommon. Reductor is definitely the most popular though. Taghmata need a bit of a rework. They need a 'core' Troops option, in the way that Thallax are for Reductor (I know they're bad, but flavour wise they're meant to be the vanguard) or Castellax are for Cybernetica. Tech-Thralls are just chaff, Scyllax are garbage...I'd like to see 30k Skitarii to be honest. Secutarii are good, but by design can't be your compulsory. I think with a good core infantry option for Troops, Taghmata would hang together a lot better. As is, the list heavily relies on Krios Venators and Myrmidons to do the damage. The Mechancium book in general suffers from strange Force Org problems. Heavy Support is weird because you have garbage next to auto-takes (depending on list), but I'd still class it as overcrowded (hence Reductor's appeal, because you get awesome tanks + a unique unit + an extra slot). Fast Attack is also crowded for Cybernetica, but largely ignored by Taghmata and Reductor (I sometimes see a 6-man Ursarax blob, but it always dies, Lightnings are a personal choice like for Legion players). Elites is a graveyard of bad design (even more painful because we get 4 slots), which is sad because the models and background for all three units are really cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Yeah, skitarii and Kataphron with some 30k relevant choices would be my bet. Imagine Kataphron with a 3+ save, Volkite weapon's and such <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 From my experience admech have been really good allies as you can build-a-bear workshop a flavor of support for your main army while avoiding some of the drawbacks you get from running admech as your primary detachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Yeah, skitarii and Kataphron with some 30k relevant choices would be my bet. Imagine Kataphron with a 3+ save, Volkite weapon's and such <3 I'm in the middle of writing custom rules to incorporate Skitarii and Cult Mechanicum into 30k. I am kinda torn on whether to cut out all the phosphor stuff and replace it with volkite. My only problem with it is Destructors already utilise volkite culverins very efficiently, so it would be hard to make the battle-servitors relevant. Wouldn't be such a problem on Kastellans because they can sit still and fire twice. From my experience admech have been really good allies as you can build-a-bear workshop a flavor of support for your main army while avoiding some of the drawbacks you get from running admech as your primary detachment. Yeah that's true. It's something I'm considering in the future, if Dark Angels end up getting good full rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Servitors will be troops and have an additional weapon so there is your point of difference to the Myrmidons :D No idea what you'd give Kastellans instead of Phosphor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Hardened Armour isn't in the new rulebook or in the Mechanicum army book. I think it might be just in the Legion army book. What was the nerf to it? It's not a new nerf, it's always been garbage. For the privilege of re-rolling failed armor saves vs. templates/blasts, you suffer -1 on charges/runs/sweeps. Bad call on a big bad melee Archmagos as they tend to be. The only decent version of hardened armor exists for the Solar Auxilia and the Nemean Reaver, because they can re-roll all saves against those attacks. There is a Solar Auxilia player on here that frequently puts them behind Aegis lines for a 2+ go to ground re-rollable cover against quad mortars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Servitors will be troops and have an additional weapon so there is your point of difference to the Myrmidons No idea what you'd give Kastellans instead of Phosphor. Yeah that's true, but they're only BS3. I'm considering tweaking their points cost, to represent how readily available they were. I think I might just leave the phosphor rules as is (ie their 7th edition incarnation), it will be most familiar to people who already have those models. Yeah volkite culverins quickly get out of hand. Maybe volkite calivers? But like I said, I may just leave their rules as is. Castellax still beat them as being more flexible and responsive to Cybertheurgy, while Kastellans are only able to use their data-wafer protocols. It's not a new nerf, it's always been garbage. For the privilege of re-rolling failed armor saves vs. templates/blasts, you suffer -1 on charges/runs/sweeps. Bad call on a big bad melee Archmagos as they tend to be. The only decent version of hardened armor exists for the Solar Auxilia and the Nemean Reaver, because they can re-roll all saves against those attacks. There is a Solar Auxilia player on here that frequently puts them behind Aegis lines for a 2+ go to ground re-rollable cover against quad mortars. Oh ok, is it in the Legion army list? Cos I swear I can't find it in the Mechanicum army book :( On that last point, that's cheating. The quad mortars are barrage weapons, so he gets no cover save provided the centre of the blast is behind the Aegis line (its fine if it lands in front though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidbunneh Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 The Cybernetica audio novel has skitarii with valkyries and whole squads with phased plasma fusils. That could be a cheap way to bulk up unit variety in the mechanicum. I agree with the troops point, the list doesn't have a generalist unit, all strange and gimmicky ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Hardened Armour isn't in the new rulebook or in the Mechanicum army book. I think it might be just in the Legion army book. What was the nerf to it? It's not a new nerf, it's always been garbage. For the privilege of re-rolling failed armor saves vs. templates/blasts, you suffer -1 on charges/runs/sweeps. Bad call on a big bad melee Archmagos as they tend to be. The only decent version of hardened armor exists for the Solar Auxilia and the Nemean Reaver, because they can re-roll all saves against those attacks. There is a Solar Auxilia player on here that frequently puts them behind Aegis lines for a 2+ go to ground re-rollable cover against quad mortars. Yup should tell him, that you don't get a cover save from an Aegis if you get bombed by a barrage weapon. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 The Cybernetica audio novel has skitarii with valkyries and whole squads with phased plasma fusils. That could be a cheap way to bulk up unit variety in the mechanicum. Yeah that would be pretty cool. I believe you can take Valkyries as a Sub-Orbital Wing for Mechanicum? Not sure of any other way to get them currently. As for phased plasma fusils, would be putting Secutors out of a job on Vanguard/Rangers because both are Relentless. So maybe I'd just expand the special weapon options available. I think whole squads would raise eyebrows haha. I agree with the troops point, the list doesn't have a generalist unit, all strange and gimmicky ones. Yeah hence my fleshing out of the Unifier forces with Skitarii and battle-servitor Troops. Still tweaking their costs and special rules though (I'm taking out Canticles because its too wonky for 30k, and its more thematic because they were less cohesive in the webway war). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidbunneh Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Secutors need as much job security as they can get :D Perhaps they'll just get the same as 40k, 2 special weapons per 10 guys. That's if they even get rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 With graviton imploders now being naff, what is best to use for dealing with TEQ???Is it now that myrmidons have gone instead to a strong anti-MEQ rather than anti-TEQ role and instead we just need to pick off termies from afar with thanatars, photon weapons, medusa and venators??Are Ursurax any good against them in combat?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 With graviton imploders now being naff, what is best to use for dealing with TEQ??? Is it now that myrmidons have gone instead to a strong anti-MEQ rather than anti-TEQ role and instead we just need to pick off termies from afar with thanatars, photon weapons, medusa and venators?? Are Ursurax any good against them in combat?? In a word, yes! Most terminators are unwieldy, so would be striking at the same time as the Ursurax anyway. If they are rocking swords, or LC, they will only wound on a 5+. Because of T5, even a power fist won't instant death you and you get to take a nice FNP 5+ roll against each wound. While on the flip side, your S10 Power Fists will ROCK those Terminators causing instant death back at them. Obviously there are outliers (special Legion Terminators etc) but most are the same when it comes to comparing offense vs our defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Yeah for sure. Makes a lot of sense.. I suppose the main issue with them is getting there in one piece?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Yep. That 4+ means you can't throw them at a gunline unsupported, but that just means you need a plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Is Graviton “naff”? That preliminary FAQ that I can’t find anymore seemed to be giving graviton imploders the same wounding rule as the grav-flux bombard. If the test is on 2D6, the imploders are still clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 It says nothing about 2d6, just a strength test so wounding on 4+.... So 3/4 units of thalax with 5 ursurax good enough ( the rest is venators, medusa, probs myrms in triaros and a sagittar...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 You have to go over your strength to fail the test. So wounding on a 5+ for most things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Yes my bad! Total piece of naff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Ursarax are expensive, and balls for leadership. I prefer the bots in the fast attack slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Going reductor so don't really want bots if I can help it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Deep Strike & hope could be one option... If not maybe a large block. Just don't get any Medusas near them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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