IO - The Mechanicum Abyssii

[Talonair]

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Edited January 1, 2020 by Talonair

[Talonair]

Ok, the entire entry is formatted weirdly, can someone fix the random gaps between lines?

[Doctor Perils]

This looks very nice indeed ! I haven't had time to look all the way through, but the introduction is definitely promising !

 

For the lines I'm afraid you'll have to do it, except if you PM a moderator. In fairness, the layout is much better than a lot of people's first attempts on the B&C 

 

If you want to try it, I'd recommend cutting the whole text (ctrl+X), then "pasting as Plain text" - for that, there is a button in the tool bar, on the top line to the right. You'll then have to reformat using the BBCode for basicheader and the different variations. There is a tutorial here.

[Talonair]

Ok, that's fixed it. Thanks

[Chief Captain Redd]

This is a tremendous start, And a very promising development! I'm interested to see how their roll plays out in the rest of the Insurrection.

[Talonair]

Thank you very much!

[Sigismund229]

As Redd says, brilliant start!

[MikhalLeNoir]

Yap, Great entrance.

[Praefectus Invictus]

Good to see someone new entering the project. Curious to see how this turns out.

[Talonair]

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[Talonair]

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[Talonair]

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[Chief Captain Redd]

I really like Motera's fluff and theme, and I think it's interesting to see a comparable character to a Primarch rules wise that being said she doesn't have a weak point, which I'm actually fine with, but points wise I think she'd be more expensive than a Primarch. Like our mathhammer members might be a better judge than I but I'd gander between 600-675 points. Stat wise she's in the physical beast comparison with Daer'dd, Niklaas, Morrow, and Pionus. And is at first glance hits as hard as Daer'dd or Hectarion in CC. I mean she's an absolute BEAST.

 

Question for you, how do you see her physically? Because just based on stats I saw her as this huge mechandrite, iron tendril, servo armed yet elegant scythe wielding machine. Like T8 W8 makes me think she should have at least the very bulky, if not extremely bulky rule. Because even if she is mostly Adamantium, Tungsten, etcetera she is more survivable than most tanks/dreads and that's a lot of metal.

 

Sorry for the run on sentence.

[Grifftofer]

Wow. She is one tough lady. So I've done a quick comparison of her to all the other Primarchs and she pretty much outclasses all of them. Just looking at her toughness for a moment she has the same number of wounds as Sorrowsworn, the Toughness of Niklaas and a better FNP than Pionus. Even if they charge there is only one Primarch who can take her down over the whole course of a game (12 rounds of combat) and that is Raktra. And he needs 11 rounds to do that. Perhaps more tellingly is the fact that there are a number of Primarchs who over the course of 12 rounds did 0 damage to her. They do less damage to her over time than she heals with her awesome IWND (Fulgrim [Laer Blade], Ferrus Manus [Fists], Lorgar, Peturabo [The Logos], Rogal Dorn, Corax [All Fighting Styles], Guilliman [Gladius], Alexandros [Either Weapon], Daer'dd, Koschei [sword], Kozja, Gwalchavad, Alexos [basic], K'awil [both], Jade General [Non-Earth], Coch'ise). The issue is that in order to beat her you need a combination of Attacks, Strength and ability to ignore FNP that lots of Primarchs seem not to have. Add into that that she can join any unit including castallax and I wouldn't expect to ever see her die in a game.

 

Onto her attacking. Not here I haven't been able to take into account all of her rules as I don't have time today to work out how Rad Furnace, Grenades and Disruption Forks would factor into what I have so far, let alone the Entropic Discharge ability or Data Inload. Even so, if those rules aren't taken into account she is still up in the top third to quarter of Primarchs in terms of damage potential. She will take down every single Primarch except Pionus withinin 12 rounds of combat and the only person who can take her down within that time (Raktra) she wipes in only 5 rounds. The longest combat would be between her and Pionus and it would last 16 round (ish) leave him dead and her on about 5.7 wounds.

 

The only somewhat reliable way to deal with her is with D weapons and if she hides in a unit she can effectively ignore those that have range, meaning that she has to deal with melee variants. Any vehicle is a non-issue due to her attacks being S8+ armourbane and  most anything else would be a MC or GC. Almost every MC is less resilient than a Primarch so I'll basically ignore them and I don't really have enough experience of GC to comment much on them.  I would say it would be conservative to put her at 600-700 points as I worry that there is very little in the game that would ever worry her.

[Talonair]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Question for you, how do you see her physically? Because just based on stats I saw her as this huge mechandrite, iron tendril, servo armed yet elegant scythe wielding machine. Like T8 W8 makes me think she should have at least the very bulky, if not extremely bulky rule. Because even if she is mostly Adamantium, Tungsten, etcetera she is more survivable than most tanks/dreads and that's a lot of metal.

 

Sorry, I completely forgot to add that. I'm thinking very or extremelly bulky. I envision her as still being humanoid from the waist up, her actual body retaining its femininity, whilst out of her back and from under her robes pour a mass of mechadendrites and servo-arms, effectivelly being carried across the battlefield on a carpet of augmetic tentacles.

 

Wow. She is one tough lady. So I've done a quick comparison of her to all the other Primarchs and she pretty much outclasses all of them. Just looking at her toughness for a moment she has the same number of wounds as Sorrowsworn, the Toughness of Niklaas and a better FNP than Pionus. Even if they charge there is only one Primarch who can take her down over the whole course of a game (12 rounds of combat) and that is Raktra. And he needs 11 rounds to do that. Perhaps more tellingly is the fact that there are a number of Primarchs who over the course of 12 rounds did 0 damage to her. They do less damage to her over time than she heals with her awesome IWND (Fulgrim [Laer Blade], Ferrus Manus [Fists], Lorgar, Peturabo [The Logos], Rogal Dorn, Corax [All Fighting Styles], Guilliman [Gladius], Alexandros [Either Weapon], Daer'dd, Koschei [sword], Kozja, Gwalchavad, Alexos [basic], K'awil [both], Jade General [Non-Earth], Coch'ise). The issue is that in order to beat her you need a combination of Attacks, Strength and ability to ignore FNP that lots of Primarchs seem not to have. Add into that that she can join any unit including castallax and I wouldn't expect to ever see her die in a game.

 

I intended for her to be incredibly durable, but not to that extent, wow. Ok, yea, her defensive ability needs toning down significantly. What would you suggest? I was thinking of cutting the number of wounds she has back to seven, remove her re-roll on the Feel No Pain roll (or remove Feel No Pain completely). I'd like to leave her ability to join Automata units if only for the theme. Why would the Fabricator-General of one of the most powerful Forge Worlds turn down the option of a Battle-automata body guard?

 

 

Onto her attacking. Not here I haven't been able to take into account all of her rules as I don't have time today to work out how Rad Furnace, Grenades and Disruption Forks would factor into what I have so far, let alone the Entropic Discharge ability or Data Inload. Even so, if those rules aren't taken into account she is still up in the top third to quarter of Primarchs in terms of damage potential. She will take down every single Primarch except Pionus withinin 12 rounds of combat and the only person who can take her down within that time (Raktra) she wipes in only 5 rounds. The longest combat would be between her and Pionus and it would last 16 round (ish) leave him dead and her on about 5.7 wounds.

 

The only somewhat reliable way to deal with her is with D weapons and if she hides in a unit she can effectively ignore those that have range, meaning that she has to deal with melee variants. Any vehicle is a non-issue due to her attacks being S8+ armourbane and  most anything else would be a MC or GC. Almost every MC is less resilient than a Primarch so I'll basically ignore them and I don't really have enough experience of GC to comment much on them.  I would say it would be conservative to put her at 600-700 points as I worry that there is very little in the game that would ever worry her.

 

Yea, her damage output needs cutting back. I was thinking of dropping her rad-grenades, the +1 strength on her weapon, and the entropic strike rule (or maybe nerf the entropic strike rule). Maybe make her Disruption forks unweildy, and nerf Data Inload so it only grants the +1 WS after a round in the challenge, and drop the other bonuses completely. I think dropping Furious Charge and Rage might be a good idea as well.

[Grifftofer]

Everything below is based on my thoughts and experience rather than any kind of testing or maths :P

 

For her toughness I'd say that your suggestions are good ones, 7 wounds is still allot for anyone. As for FNP I believe that some/most Magi have FNP in the new Mechanicum red book, so I'd say just get rid of the re-roll. I'd also like to suggest that you consider dropping her toughness down to 7. If you think about her durability she will still be better than Mortarion or Vulkan given that she has FNP and a better Inv than Mortarion, but she won't be unkillable by most Primarchs (probably).

 

Damage-wise dropping the Rad Grenades seems like a good idea. I'd try leaving the +1S on her weapon, but removing Entropic Strike completely. I'd also consider leaving the Disruption forks, but dropping their S by 1-2. They still have Shred so can deal with lesser targets, but it makes them less likely to rip big holes in equal adversaries. The other thing I'd consider is dropping her A to 4, as far as I recall none of the primarchs with S&T7 have more than 4A  and I think that is a good baseline to follow. As to your other ideas I think they would help tone her down and bring her in line with Primarch characters. The only thing left after that is to playtest her a bit to get a feel for where she ranks and roughly what she is worth.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Whoa. I'm hesitant to suggest anything, as that would involve gutting her.

 

The least I can suggest is to compare her to Morro. I was quite intrigued as to how you'd create the role of someone who is a Fleetmaster, and all I can say is that she feels the ultimate Mary Sue. I kind of imagined having her as some sort of AI Avatar "possessed" by her Sentience while actually being built into one of the ships, but now we have some super primarch equivalent.

 

So, in a Morro comparison; 

 

T8. 8 Wounds; I was told that it was considered a bit too tough, and so I dropped his save to a 3+/5++. In a world of Primarchs with a 2+/4++ at minimum, it means I'm taking a bit more damage, but with his IWND ability of being able to roll for each wound lost, it slightly mitigated it out. I'm not that bothered about him being immune to Bolter fire; bolter fire in 30K is largely irrelevant IMHO, and so complaining about that isn't an issue. That Plasma sizzles off though, and being able to take a Lascannon shot with greater ease feels good. However, where those Lascannon shots on Morro were hitting with a 66% chance of wounding and a further 66% chance of getting through his Invulnerable, in comparison to Nox where there's a 66% chance of wounding, a 33% chance of getting through the invulnerable, and then a 45% chance of getting through FNP. Whereas Morro's is a 44% chance of causing a wound per Lascannon Hit, Nox' is ~10%. For all the damage Morro takes, it's a 1/3 chance of recovering wounds; 10 Lascannon hits gets me 4-5 wounds, which I regain 1-2, depending on a lucky roll. That's 2-4 wounds suffered. Nox has a less than 10% chance of suffering a wound, so a 0-1 wound and a 55% chance of regaining that wound via IWND. Throw on Concussive Immunity

 

Now, as for Damage; 8-10 Mastercrafted Preferred Enemy I5 WS7 S9 AP2 Attacks, D3 of which are noted as Fleshbane, striking an enemy with a Rad Grenade and Rad Furnace for -2 Toughness. Pop in a challenge, and this rises to WS8, and in later challenge rounds dropping to 6 attacks and I6 as well, as well as 2 additional attacks with the Concussive, S6 Shred AP2. I've included rampage in this, but I suppose it doesn't give a completely true idea, but a close enough one. After all, Morro's unique situations means that Rampage will come into its own as well.

 

This is ridiculous amounts, to be frank (and not intended to be insulting), and something that unless a Titan, has not a chance in hell of surviving. To compare against Morro, I have a 5++ Invulnerable keeping me alive against ~9 Attacks hitting me on 4s with a reroll, wounding me on 2's with a reroll, and then 2 further attacks hitting at the same rate and wounding me on 4+ with a flat out reroll, which cancels out my one clear advantage in that I got to strike before you (my Initiative 8). That's 6-7 wounds from the Scythe, and 1-2 wounds from the Combat array, and I don't even know how to apply that auto 6 (do you check after rolling? Declare before rolling that one dice is a 6? etc) that I need to save. In a single charge, a 500pt Primarch has just been reduced to 2 wounds, if not lower, and then in the next turn, is forced to roll AFTER Nox.

 

It reduces Morro to T6, or any other Primarch to T4. 

 

My thoughts?

 

Remove Rad Grenades, Entropic Discharge, Murderous Strike, mastercrafted (it's doing nothing anyway), Rampage, Concussive, rerolls to FNP and IWND

 

A few more radical changes; 

 

Drop the Invulnerable Save, and drop to 1 attack (keep Rampage in this instance). Rampage gives you 3 attacks baseline. I'd also perhaps include a line saying that the models size  for a transport capacity counts towards the number of models; it's a change my local group have been testing with regards to a Power Scythes in 30K; give them all Rampage, but to "balance" them, give them the option to make a Sweep Attack; this gives them the Rampage special rule, but it takes into consideration their size in a transport; Terminators hence count as 2 models for outnumbering; and a 10 Man Squad needs to face an 11 man squad to get the benefit of this rule. I'd also drop the Initiative to get more benefit from that.  

 

As for benefits; Preferred Enemy applies to the entirety of your squad, and you can join Castellax. Even with the Price increase, that you have a Djinn Skein, you have comparatively Cheap BS5 Castellax Darkfires rerolling misses. Even on Praevians, you have to be within 24", or 12" effectively to get that benefit, and it requires a BS5 model to score a hit with a rapid fire weapon (and hence prevents that unit from charging). 

 

If this is going to be a unit, it should be Knight sized, and around 900pts as it stands. There is pretty much nothing that Nox cannot take on; even a pair of Knight Lancers would struggle, thanks to the amount of Armourbane Attacks that it can put out. 

[Talonair]

Ok, so I'll drop the re-roll on FNP, and I'll consider T7.

 

I'll try the -1 Strength on Disruption forks, and dropping her attacks to 4.

[Talonair]

In reference to Hesh Kadesh, Mortera was never intended to be the Fleetmaster. That's Ariana Furia. Mortera was always intended to be a massive beatstick on the level with powerful Primarchs. Yes, in her current state she is overpowered, I grant that, and I'm trying out some changes

[Hesh Kadesh]

Thanks for the clarification! 

[Talonair]

I definately intend to write profiles for all the characters named thus far.

 

After some rolling, Mortera appears to be roughly equal to Pionus after the changes of: -1 Wound, Data Inload only boosting WS, taking away Rage and Furious Charge, -1 S on Disruption Forks, taking away Entropic Strike, re-rolls on FNP and rad grenades. That is assuming Pionus does not use his D weapon attacks. The Stomp ability that Pionus has is somewhat of a wild card, and for all that Mortera may be overpowered, even she does not have the ability to wipe out another Primarch in a single round of combat

[Slips]

Thing is, thats only Wraith Pionus :p he has another Profile for his fleshbag form in my threads first page (sicne its deep in the others)

 

But as is, the changes suggested are good since you essentially created a CC Titan/GMC equivalent on a ~40mm base?

[Talonair]

Updated Mortera's profile

[Talonair]

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Edited January 1, 2020 by Talonair

[Grifftofer]

I have to ask if there is any specific reason for these to exist? It seems like they just overlap almost completely with the other two types of myrmidon. When I first looked at the shield rules I thought they were going to be a melee focused unit of myrmidons, which I thought was a cool idea. They could also have been a bodyguard unit that could be taken by an magos without using an FOC slot, but as is they just seem to be better Secutors for more points.