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Company vets in a Lion's Blade


Malakithe

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They're here for logicsake, not for gamesake.

 

Alas, GW seems not to understand that the company vets NEEDS the special ammunitions of their vanilla equivalent because as they are, they are just costly tactical with access to combi weapons.

 

I know that some may say that they have not the same role blah blah blah, but therés a difference about what they are in the fluff and how they behave gameswise. Of course, DA has not access to sternguards and vanguards for fluff reasons and it's fine.

Thing is that's why we have a single entry with different rules (not access to JP and vanguards special rules BUT possibility to mix n match vanguard and sternguards). Moreover we don't have those special formations vanilla have for their vets...

 

Hence this particular structure (similar to the difference of structure between a LB 1/2 company and a gladius one) already represent the difference between vanilla and DA vets. We don't need, on top of that, a difference of wargear access.

 

Unless GW understand that though, there's no room for them in a company army list

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Do you really have to have them?

If the answer is yes, for any reason, they can be used in several ways.

- Drop pod with meltas and combi-meltas... or other combi weapons. Alpha strike, eliminate threats and pray to the Emperor that they surive to make more damage.

- Retinue for the Chaplain/Commander. Couple of power axes, a powerfist for S, maybe a sprinke of storm shields plus meltagun/combi-meltas.

What you make them do, be sure tehy do it good, without being overboard in points... in the end of the they they are only toughness 4, one wound 3+ save marines.

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Try as I might, I just can't seem to find a reason to take them. Even if it is for meltas on an alpha strike squad, for the same 175 points that it would cost to have a 5-man vet squad with melta/combi melta on a drop pod, I could take an attack bike squadron with multimeltas.

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Do you really have to have them?

If the answer is yes, for any reason, they can be used in several ways.

- Drop pod with meltas and combi-meltas... or other combi weapons. Alpha strike, eliminate threats and pray to the Emperor that they surive to make more damage.

- Retinue for the Chaplain/Commander. Couple of power axes, a powerfist for S, maybe a sprinke of storm shields plus meltagun/combi-meltas.

What you make them do, be sure tehy do it good, without being overboard in points... in the end of the they they are only toughness 4, one wound 3+ save marines.

But all of this can be done better by a command squad with special weapons rather than the one use only combi bolters...

 

Company veterans do lack the special ammunition that could trnsform them into a tactical alternative to command squad.

Now they are just subpar command squad...

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I agree with Master Avoghai, they're there for fluff's sake and I think to give players a reason to buy them.  I've run them before in a list as a close combat setup (full 10, 6 BP&C, 4 power sowrds), but I'll be the first to say that they aren't particularly great.  They aren't bad and let's not forget they look awesome and are fun to paint.

 

The problem I find with taking them is that bringing them takes away from points elsewhere.  in essence you end up spending more points on something you already have that only offers you a temporary increase in power in the form of one time use combi weapons.  A full 10 man costs 40 points more than a full, ungeared squad of tacticals and then you're going to spend even more on one time use weapons and most likely a transport to get them to use them.  You don't want to be blowing your combi-plasmas/gravs beyond 12" or after moving respectively.

 

I'd much rather save the points to give the wargear to say a bike squad, a typhoon missile launcher on a landspeeder, lascannon sponsons on predators, that sort of thing.

 

For reference sake, the list I did include these vets was:

Core:

CM

Sacred Standard Grav CS

10 CVs

3x 9 Tacticals (grav cannon)

3HB/GC Devs

Assault Marines

Aux: RWAS (MMAB, 2xGrav, CombiGrav, LSV)

Formation: Conclave: 2 Libs

 

The list did ok, but I was footslogging when I would probably opt to drop things somewhere to mechanize them, which would mean a lot of cuts and a lot less bodies.

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I have toyed with the idea of putting vets in a Lions Blade Az-Zeke Bomb list (obviously, it would have to be a full battle company to take 2 Inner Circle members).

 

I know Prot has moved on to greener (or bluer :P) pastures, but perhaps he would care to weigh in here. In his discussion of the list in our previous codex, he toyed between putting tacticals or vets in the bomb - vets having the advantage of access to better weapons, more attacks etc, while tactical being ObSec and cheaper. Nowadays, with the demi-company, vets are ObSec too, taking away one of the reasons to use tacs over vets. Of course, the Lions Blade is quite expensive, so finding the points for vets may be tricky while trying to fit everything else in, but it seems to me that this might be a good way of getting mileage out of them if you were determined to play them.

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I'm going to use 5 per squad with plasma pistols and bolt pistols (gunslingers). Gets me 2 extra free razorbacks in the full company and your opponent is assaulting through 5 bolter and 5 plasma shots, and they still get 10 attacks in close combat. If you charge, you get those 10 shots, then 20 attacks.

 

Not mind blowing, but capable of becoming a nuisance.

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All valid points. I'm trying to put together a lion's blade for 2k pts. I was thinking of sticking to a single demi cuz 2 is just crazy for models/money...even after filling out a RWSS and a small redemption force and including a command squad and dread I figured I would see what else I could toss in
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Even with just chainswords and bolt pistols they have a ton of attacks. I like to ink of them as a better Tactical squad and make one clearly a leader while the average guy has just bp and cc. That way you keep the points down.

 

Its amazing what 2A +1 extra CC +1 charging can do. Factor in shooting the pistols first and that's 50 potential wounds from a ten man squad.

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I was referring to the 10 man squad thou. Razors can only hold 6...which is a strange number

 

Not really. Combat squad + IC. Also, you can take the razorback and just not embark them. Run if need be, keep the razorback separate. End result is good enough. Just in how you play them.

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I think if kitted out for a specific job without overspending on them, they can be powerful in a CAD...but in a lion's blade...well, by the time you've bought the rest of the demi company, there's little room for another tactical squad that costs more per model for access to some nice shooty and melee options and +1A but doesn't really gain more than an actual tactical squad does from the special rules or do anything that a tactical squad can't (even if the vets do it better).  Meanwhile, you're giving up points that might otherwise be spent on a lion's blade sub-formation that a, eliminates the need for paying the scout tax, b,  has awesomeness that the vets lack, and c, does things the super-tacs can't.  

 

In a 4000 point double demi list...maybe...but even then, they still come after the double demi, RWAS, DWSF, and hammer of caliban...probably even after the silence squadron!

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There is no reason to take co. Vets as long as you have a slot available for a command squad (or really anything else) instead. Anything they can do, command squads do better. That is not to say they are terrible or even bad. They are just a mediocre unit that were left behind by the power creep of the game, much like terminators and dreadnoughts (until the latest iterations).

 

What would be cool would be if they had the options to mix 'n' match the traits of tacticals, assault marines and devastates a bit more. This is what they seemed to be going for with the ability to do power weapons, multiple heavy weapons and special weapons. But, I think they should have the option for jump packs. Additionally, power weapons across the board need to be cheaper, not just for co. Vets.

 

Something like 0-2 special weapons, 0-2 heavy weapons, the ability to take power weapons and combis, and being able to take jump packs would make them a unique and versatile unit option. You could do a squad of ten that splits into a small close combat unit and a mini-dev squad all with jump packs (pricey but with some definite potential). Or you could the same unit without packs in a drop pod and it would have both firepower and counter assault potential. Or you could run them purely as a shoot unit or purely as assault. This would keep them separate from the vanilla vets, but allow them to actually contribute things that command squads cannot.

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