Rob P Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Just doing a bit of idle speculation, but is it beyond all possibility that the Dark Angels that Russ finds in the Wolf King become the first Black Templars? This is my thought process and some bits are more tenuous than others. - Sigismund is more or less cast out of his legion by Dorn - The Fists are known for being fiercely loyal so are less likely to follow Sigismund after his fall out with Dorn - The Dark Angels in Wolf King possibly end up on Terra - The Dark Angels in Wolf King have a star fort - The Dark Angels in Wolf King don't have any particular loyalty to their Primarch - The Fists don't particularly have 'knight' iconography but the Dark Angels do - The Dark Angel colours during the heresy are not a million miles from the Black Templar colours - The Dark Angels had a massive recruitment drive after Luthur was sent back to Caliban so a few can afford to 'go missing' - The Black Templars don't die in lore as much as the Fists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Just doing a bit of idle speculation, but is it beyond all possibility that the Dark Angels that Russ finds in the Wolf King become the first Black Templars? This is my thought process and some bits are more tenuous than others. - Sigismund is more or less cast out of his legion by Dorn - The Fists are known for being fiercely loyal so are less likely to follow Sigismund after his fall out with Dorn - The Dark Angels in Wolf King possibly end up on Terra - The Dark Angels in Wolf King have a star fort - The Dark Angels in Wolf King don't have any particular loyalty to their Primarch - The Fists don't particularly have 'knight' iconography but the Dark Angels - The Dark Angel colours during the heresy are not a million miles from the Black Templar colours - The Dark Angels had a massive recruitment drive after Luthur was sent back to Caliban so a few can afford to 'go missing' - The Black Templars don't die in lore as much as the Fists The problem is, Sigismund was still the same rank, and I would imagine many in the VII did not know of the rift between the Primarch and Sigismund and he was not cast out, so they would still follow him. - We know that he still played a big part because of the Siege of Terra, in which he lead the forces when Dorn went to the Vengeful Spirit (whether it was just the Imperial Fists or all forces I cannot remember.) - Sigismund and his company had a large amount of heraldry which was brought into the Black Templars. - I very much doubt intermixed chapters would be formed even with one member, especially from Legions like the prideful IF/DA. - The Black Templars field mass assaults, where as the Fists are mostly brought into defense and squad based warfare so casualty rates are quite serious in both however having a Large fighting force with the Black Templar generally improves chances of survival. - The reason why chapters differ from their home Legion, is due to the varying natures of those who formed the chapter. For example, the Flesh Tearers and BA - Sigismund and his company were assault based, when the Legions split, the most Zealous went to his chapter. - Finally Russ ends up on Terra, without his forces iirc, I believe the Dark Angel would more than likely have stayed with the Legion (I have not read the book, only the plot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Just doing a bit of idle speculation, but is it beyond all possibility that the Dark Angels that Russ finds in the Wolf King become the first Black Templars? This is my thought process and some bits are more tenuous than others. - Sigismund is more or less cast out of his legion by Dorn - The Fists are known for being fiercely loyal so are less likely to follow Sigismund after his fall out with Dorn - The Dark Angels in Wolf King possibly end up on Terra - The Dark Angels in Wolf King have a star fort - The Dark Angels in Wolf King don't have any particular loyalty to their Primarch - The Fists don't particularly have 'knight' iconography but the Dark Angels do - The Dark Angel colours during the heresy are not a million miles from the Black Templar colours - The Dark Angels had a massive recruitment drive after Luthur was sent back to Caliban so a few can afford to 'go missing' - The Black Templars don't die in lore as much as the Fists Yer missing the important fact that Sigismund becomes the Emperors Champion meaning its very likely that he and Dorn come to terms Sigismund wasant actually cast out Dorn himself says while your no longer my son your going to remain captain of the first company because I need you to be The Templar Brethren Exist as the Imperial Fists Elite with the crusaders cross and knight iconography long before the heresy even happens Not to mention how its said that when the Imperial fists were split the Most Zealous went with Sigismund I mean its a theory but I find it to be a very unlikely one given what we know and whats likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeychunks Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 There's also the geneseed thing. If they were from Dark Angels stock, they'd have fully-functional geneseed with all of the Marine augmentations running properly. I'm 99% certain that the Black Templars are noted as lacking them (Betcher's and the sleep one?) which happens to be exactly the same flaws as the Imperial Fists have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I'm using Dark Angels heads on my Templar Brethren if that counts for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Also Sigismund's falling out of favour with Dorn was (as far as the HH has covered so far) a secret, kept entirely between the two of them to avoid undermining the first captain's authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 well I enjoy entertaining ideas and lore twisting and I think you have done so with brilliant taste I must as a stuanch VII man... SLAM MY FIST ON THE TABLE AND HOLLER(with no small amount of froth at the corners of my mouth and spittle flying) "THIS IS PREPOSTEROUS " The accepted cannon clearly sais they are a Fists succesor. They also have geneseed idyosyncrisies that are consistent with Fists (and I believe the administorum keeps tabs on that stuff) And they are more or less an existing force in the VII legion that get autonomy after the Guilliman reforms and did I mention that no self respecting black templar ever goes to battle in a dress. but I enjoyed you're theory and that's what this subforum is about so ...slow clap for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Sorry man, definitely going to have to put this idea in the 'beyond all possibility' column. Black Templars have been around for over a decade, and have been known as sons of Dorn in the fluff from the beginning. The Dark Angels you're referring to, they've been established in the fluff for months. A blink of the eye compared to Sigismund and his Templars. Ice cube, meet Hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Yeah, even though the Templars stole our cool black paint, our tabards, swords everywhere, and knight theme, we aren't bitter. It's why we changed our paint scheme to green, so we didn't need to look like those copycats. Maybe they'll pick up the green so we can make black cool again. *drops mic* ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 The team killers were not content with the Ophidium Gulf. Now they need to spread these lies about Sigismund himself?! Just because these skirt wearers cannot accept themselves does not mean the Black Templars hide such disgusting secrets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Butcher Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Yeah, even though the Templars stole our cool black paint, our tabards, swords everywhere, and knight theme, we aren't bitter. It's why we changed our paint scheme to green, so we didn't need to look like those copycats. Maybe they'll pick up the green so we can make black cool again. *drops mic* And started wearing dresses :-p To differentiate yourselves from our skirts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 Thanks for entertaining my theory (.. by shooting it down mercilessly! ) . I don't think that Sigismund being the Emperor's Champion hurts the theory (though the geneseed thing and 10+ years of lore might be a little problem). If anything I think the Emperor's Champion title might assist my argument i.e. Sigismund being the 'Emperor's' champion reinforces his separation from Dorn whilst still being loyal in the same way that the aforementioned Dark Angels are loyal to the Emperor but don't necessarily have a specific loyalty to the Lion. I was also thinking about how Dorn was initially against the legion to chapter move, but how he came round to it and, coupling that with the fact that IF's are known for being fiercely loyal, It seems less likely that the Fists would directly break the agreement to cap the chapter size. Also the 'quality' geneseed coming from the Dark Angels would help with the supposed recruitment rate of the Templars. What I would like see, if I have to abandon the Dark Angel theory, is a few more Imperial Fists thinking like Sigismund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Thanks for entertaining my theory (.. by shooting it down mercilessly! ) . I don't think that Sigismund being the Emperor's Champion hurts the theory (though the geneseed thing and 10+ years of lore might be a little problem). If anything I think the Emperor's Champion title might assist my argument i.e. Sigismund being the 'Emperor's' champion reinforces his separation from Dorn whilst still being loyal in the same way that the aforementioned Dark Angels are loyal to the Emperor but don't necessarily have a specific loyalty to the Lion. I was also thinking about how Dorn was initially against the legion to chapter move, but how he came round to it and, coupling that with the fact that IF's are known for being fiercely loyal, It seems less likely that the Fists would directly break the agreement to cap the chapter size. Also the 'quality' geneseed coming from the Dark Angels would help with the supposed recruitment rate of the Templars. What I would like see, if I have to abandon the Dark Angel theory, is a few more Imperial Fists thinking like Sigismund. We know that Sigismund was the first High Marshall too though, as it has been stated quite a few times in Imperial Fists and Black Templars fluff, although I can't remember the exact quotes, might have to poke someone with the appropriate books for that. The Imperial Fists were less likely to break the chapter cap indeed, and I very much doubt they would either. The problem i feel is, in my honest opinion, The Black Templars were more aligned to the Emperor and their faith in him over the codex therefore the cap was not really cared for. It is an interesting Theory, but there is too much stacked against it I am afraid mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 "On this picture we can see a Black Templar making a sacrifice of captured Dark Angels Librarian to gain a favour of Khorne - note that even when librarian is chained and defensless, Black Templar cowardly uses plasma pistol to put him down from afar. In case his poor marksmanship was not enough to kill a Dark Angel he wields a power sword." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 "On this picture we can see a Black Templar making a sacrifice of captured Dark Angels Librarian to gain a favour of Khorne - note that even when librarian is chained and defensless, Black Templar cowardly uses plasma pistol to put him down from afar. In case his poor marksmanship was not enough to kill a Dark Angel he wields a power sword." Thems fightin' words boy ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 "On this picture we can see a Black Templar making a sacrifice of captured Dark Angels Librarian to gain a favour of Khorne - note that even when librarian is chained and defensless, Black Templar cowardly uses plasma pistol to put him down from afar. In case his poor marksmanship was not enough to kill a Dark Angel he wields a power sword." Oh God Emperor! Don't bring the zeal of the Black Templars into this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 TOO LATE!ZZZZEEEEAAAALLLLLLPURGE THE FOUL DRESS WEARING CLOSET HERETICS!!!!http://img13.deviantart.net/43d1/i/2005/241/2/2/__zealous_rage___by_kunkka.jpg I hope I dont get banned for this... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given + HERESY + <chainsword revving, scream of adamantium teeth on ceramite, then sounds of painful death> Link to comment
rendingon1+ Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given scream of adamantium teeth on ceramite - sounds like a passed armour save to me I think we should return to the topic. Link to comment
M@verik115 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given How can we return to a topic which lies about the proud knights of Sigismund being formed from dress wearing traitors?! Link to comment
Slips Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given How can we return to a topic which lies about the proud knights of Sigismund being formed from dress wearing traitors?! Wrong Time Period. We're Knights of Dorn, led by Sigismund. AVE PRIMARCH! Link to comment
Kriegriss Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given Hidden by Flint13, November 20, 2015 - No reason given in Helsreach they still say they are knights of Dorn even in 40K Link to comment
Kastor Krieg Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 + HERESY + <chainsword revving, scream of adamantium teeth on ceramite, then sounds of painful death> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Hasn't the fluff always been that the most "zealous" fists ended up Templars. Like the the Templars within in the Fists Legion. That were led by Sigismund. As first captain I'm sure Sig had several guys that were very loyal to him. If there was a split between Sig and Dorn I figure Dorn would send the ones he thought more loyal to Sig with Sig to begin the Templar chapter. Coincidentally named after a unit that already existed within the Fists legion and doesn't exist anymore after the codex is put in place. This is just a silly idea. Silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.