Tactical squad question

[Daemon2027]

Hi guys, after a little advice.

 

I would like to run a 'fluffy' Raven Guard list, based around infiltrating troops, supported by elites, flyers etc. However I'm

Not sure how to set up my tactical squads. I was under the impression that you really needed maximum squad numbers but I don't really see hats a fluffy. 20 seems a bit unwieldy to go sneaking around. Would this be a big disadvantage for me?

 

For the rest of the army I was thinking Mor Deythan with combi bolsters, maybe a squad of Tartaros terminators for close combat, jet bikes or attack bikes, Dark Furries, Fire Raptors, and maybe a Sicaran of some form and some contemptor a to hurt armour.

[Charlo]

Nothing wrong with small 10 man squads with a vexilla, artificer and Melta bombs on the sarge. Power axe to taste. Let's you threaten a lot of targets and you should be in range for a decent fury shooting attack at some point!

 

Infiltrating a 20 man unit is a mess anyway!

[Daemon2027]

Yeah it seems a little messy both game wise and background wise. Ok thanks, I'm thinking 3 the man squads and a 5 man sniper squad (fluffy) and maybe a support squad of some kind for my troops.

[Charlo]

I think you have to keep it in mine they're a Legion, not the RG of today. They operate enmasse. While they do have stealth and infiltration it's on a much greater scale.

 

It represents a surprise attack more than sneaking :)

 

If you can I'd say put the supports in a drop pod. Let's them at least get one turn of unresisted firepower in.

[Daemon2027]

That should have been 3 ten man tac squads, or maybe 4? Or maybe 3 with 2 support squads. there going to be set post Istvaan V, I wanted to keep the ethos of the legion, strike hard and fast.

[Marshal Loss]

You won't need 40 tactical marines in a list, 20-30 is definitely enough if you have other scoring units supplementing them

[Daemon2027]

Ok cool, so 3 units. Plus support. Also going to have Mor Deythan and Tartaros TDA to.

[Charlo]

Really the minimum of twenty Tacs is fine!

 

Unless you have fear of having no scoring units you don't need more :) the third is insurance I suppose.

[GreyCrow]

Out of curiosity, what would you guys consider a good number of Troops squad depending on the points level, so as to not cut your support short ?

 

Cheers !

[defl0]

Chaplain with 20 tacs with ccws is a great unit.

 

I mean they can infiltrate rhinos.

 

Think stealth bombers. They are jamming scanners, using feints and distractions, attacking at night and wearing black armor. Plus things like corvus armor was lighter and had more sensors and such etc.

[Hesh Kadesh]

10, put in a Rhino, coming in from Reserve. Who cares if you don't get to reroll with Maun, when you'd be rerolling successful ones anyway if you could.

 

No real need for the Rhino if Corax is present, you can Move+Run 12", but it's still useful.

[GreyCrow]

defl0 and Hesh, you both make really good points. Having the choice between Infiltrating or Outflanking depending on the mission parameters and when Outflanking being able to move 12" for sure with Corax, or moving roughly 10" more or less thanks to fleet without him is pretty cool.

 

The Raven Guard definitely seems to be one of the Legions where you can run full 20 men squads and be effective with them just by being able to choose the engagements.

[defl0]

Yes. A lot of the legions can run tacs effectively, even 20 man tacs. The trick is figuring out how YOUR legion makes tacs better than other legions. Almost everyone has a gimmick. 

 

Most people use them as objective campers and not really to cause damage or impact the game. Most of the time i think a little investment can make those 300 pts useful instead of a sunk cost. That said, some legions like Ultras are probably maximizing their output by running a 10 man squad. Which is totally valid too. 

[Terminus]

That "little investment" tends to double their cost.

[GreyCrow]

On non CC oriented Legions, would you tend to give out extra combat blades to your Tactical Squads that are mounted in Rhinos ?

 

I've got an Ultramarines army in mind that I want to be flexible (full mechanized) with Rhino mounted Tacticals (30 of them for 3k points games). I have never considered throwing CC weapons on them before, but I bought the Calth box and the sprue has combat blades galore, so the thought crossed my mind.

[d@n]

Tacs are just a tax you have to pay. Fury of the legion is very situational and there's plenty of stuff that will go through a 20 man tac squad in one turn. Keep them in reserve and bring them on late in the game to grab objectives, once you have taken out your opponents anti infantry stuff.

[GreyCrow]

Tacs are just a tax you have to pay. Fury of the legion is very situational and there's plenty of stuff that will go through a 20 man tac squad in one turn. Keep them in reserve and bring them on late in the game to grab objectives, once you have taken out your opponents anti infantry stuff.

And when I have to pay taxes, I'd rather invest in start-ups to get tax discounts I've got the same attitude with points : Because I'm forced to pay for them, might as well make them useful Even if it is as a distraction, or a speedbumb or bubblewrap.

The logic for arming them with CC weapons was the following : if I'm moving, I'm likely to go assault, and I won't get FOTL. That way I get 4 S4 Attacks the turn I don't disembark and charge in, which is similar to Fury of the Legion if I decided to play more defensively.

What was stopping me was the fact that I'm not in an Assault Vehicle.

[d@n]

For all those points your putting into the extra body's and ccw you could get an extra squad of mor dythans with combi weapons that will kill anything with there fatal strike rule. Were as your tactical Are only really any good at killing similar infantry units and not even that well.

[GreyCrow]

I was talking about 30 Tacticals in. Rhinos that were already in a list :)

 

It's a total investment of 60 points :)

 

That way I can throw my support units at other things ^^

[Charlo]

I think with Ultras, whatever special rule that gives you counter attack might work well with the combat weapons upgrade, letting you prepare. It's the RoW right?

 

People charge your Tacs who then get 3 attacks each? Noice.

[Noserenda]

Ive had great results from buying the extra close combat weapons, tactical squads have to kill a lot of things by throwing dice at them and it makes them a credible CC threat through numbers to almost any unit. Ive had 20man units (Admittedly with Apothecaries) grind down basically anything that isnt wearing 2+ armour and waving power fists en masse.

[Terminus]

20-man footslogger unit, sure, but a 10-man tac squad?

[Nusquam]

I only ever take two 10-man tac squads wih vex. I'm building several tac support squads now because squads of special weapons are great. Between tac support, mor deythan, and seekers(which the latter two are also scoring) I'm light on actual 'troops' but always have plenty of scoring. I'm not overly fond of tacs. I use them to get objectives and run around with fleet in maelstrom while my hard hitting units are running interference.

[defl0]

For all those points your putting into the extra body's and ccw you could get an extra squad of mor dythans with combi weapons that will kill anything with there fatal strike rule. Were as your tactical Are only really any good at killing similar infantry units and not even that well.

 

Depends. You don't really need a max mor deythan squad to be useful, and I usually max out my elites with a combination of mor deythan and rapiers. And that's at 1850 pts... So then what? You can either make the points you sunk into tacs useful or pay the start up cost of another squad to get other stuff. 

 

And Tacs aren't just good at killing similar infantry. Tacs are very good at killing transports and the like, especially with a chaplain. Re roll to hit kracks grenades is a serious threat to light and medium vehicles.

 

MOST importantly you can tarpit all infantry. You don't always have to kill things to win a game. Often you just need to prevent units from making it to objectives. And with big squads you can easily tie things up for most of the game. 

 

Besides. If you truly consider the initial expenditure sunk cost and look at it objectively compared to what else you can get, 10 marines with ccws for 120 pts is a very good deal. 

[d@n]

Pretty much every unit I own can kill a transport better then tacs. You can take far better units then tac squads rather then spending more points on them. An additional 120 points a unit x2 for the mandatory troop choice is 240 points. There's a lot you can get in fast attack that will do more work for those points.

 

At 20 men,9 out of 10 people will add a apothecary so that's more points plus a precious elite slot gone. The unit has a massive foot print making them difficult to hide in cove and considering the abundance of high strength low ap weapons in 30k that's a very bad idea. Plus your almost certain to hit the unit with blast templates due to its size.your having to walk them into objectives because there to big to fit into a transport.

 

The whole concept of you payed the points for them you have to make them better is a false economy. It's like a gambler loosing money and spending more money to try and win it back. You need to cut your losses.