IG Decurion

[Frater Cornelius]

So, some of the Formations are pretty solid and well worth taking on their own. However, let's talk about the whole Detachment (whatever it is called). You start with a CCS or Tank Commander and you have the options of taking some of those fine auxiliary detachments. But there is a step in between, which I am a bit dubious about. The Emperor's Shield Infantry Company and the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company. You basically need one of those to be able to run that detachment. I would, in fact, call this a tax, although I know that some devout threadheads will disagree with me at this point However, the version that I would run, namely meched up Vets, is not a Core option.

Either way, here is the question. Do you think the Decurion detachment bonuses are worth some of that dead meat you need to carry around with you, provided that the Auxiliary choices is what you are after? Or is it better just to staple some of those Formations onto a CAD and save money and points, but sacrificing the bonuses you get from said detachment?

For those who have not seen it, here are the rules.

Cheers

Edit: You also get a Fortification slot when running a CAD, which you could use to bring useful stuff like Void Shield. Something you lack when running the Decurion.

[Phubar]

I think that tbe core choices have too much expensive. The tank one not too much (5 russes arent cheap btw) but the infantry one is unplayabe. 165 guardsmen dont even can be fielded in your dep zone if you have anything else to deploy and the cannot take chimeras thats very bad.

Economically, modelling and gaming not enjoable.

I always tought as IG as a versatile army with the possibility to specialize. Here we have some spec options but if we want to make a mixed army we lack the possibility of having an handleable (this word exist?) ifantry army.

I would have some hws and vets centered formatios.

The emoerors shield is ok but 3 of yhem as core are too much.

[Frater Cornelius]

I hear you. 165 dudes on top of artillery, tanks and so forth. Simply, no. 5 Leman Russ are easier to handle, but I feel that the Steel Host is simply superior because of Preferred Enemy to re-roll Gets Hot and/or re-roll to hit with Blasts (I am looking at you Demolishers and Plasmacutioners).

 

The one thing that really speaks for the Decurion is the near-guaranteed orders, which really helps with the Artillery Formations (Ld8 is nothing to write home about).

[Phubar]

Are you sure that PE with blasts is like TL? Even better because reroll of 1s when wounding? Sry for the ot, just a tought.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, tournaments in Germany handle it like it, so I suppose there might be some truth. Any re-roll (be it the whole hit or just re-roll 1s) is a re-roll to hit as a blast. I use this as a benchmark because I do not know any better :P

 

But that ain't the topic ;)

[Myrkul]

As far as the decurion it self, I doubt I'd ever use it. It's just to cubersome and seems more geared to apocalypse games. I think the only way I'd run it is with Russes, Spamming BS 4 punishers/vanqs has merit.

 

I do forsee a lot of people useing it to ally Pask into armies (like marines or AdMech). Since that literally the only requirment to actually run the detachment.

 

There are some formations in this I really like. Emperors Wrath specifically. Being able to issue orders and easy split fire access makes it very appealing to me since I'm a former Artillery man myself and love barrage. The Codex will ultimately determine if I use it, I'd like to see Basalisk point cost drop around Wyvern level and Manticores could drop 70ish points.

 

The Vet formation will see alot of use in lower point game for me, gaining prefered enemy on stuff I bring already in 1250 games sees like a no brianer (i feel like this should be a core choice).

 

The Sentinel formation seems interesting, has some possibilities for say kill teams (Id have to look at the kill team rules to see if formations can be used) or even to support small point games.

 

The psyker and a airborne formations seem nice, but I dont run fliers at all since mine love to wait till turn 4 to come in. The psyker formation looks really easy to break and liberious conclave feels like it brings more to the table.

 

I think though we may see a few of these formation appear in the codex update and I have the distinct feeling that any Catachan themed decurion will be seen in the Tyrinid campaign supp that is rumoured for Q1.

[Phubar]

Yes not galking about rules.

Going back on topic i think that those formations are made on the new codex that will arrive in few months, maybe there will be some big changes in squads.

[Frater Cornelius]

I feel like CAD + Emperor's Wrath + possibly the Psyker Formation is going to be pretty solid. Throw in a BB variant in there. You can literally shower the enemy with pie plates until the cows come home. Emperor's Wrath with 2 'lisks, 2 Wyvern, 1 Manticore and a CCS with MoO and the TP in a Chimera costs you 735pts. At 1850, you do not really have space for anything else if you play the Decurion.

In a CAD, you can get Sentry Vets with AC in cover, a Void Shield Gen with 3 Charges and a Stormsword. That is a lot of Blasts on the enemy and still some points to go. Then you either get the Psykers or just Kurov's Aquila. Not very cheap and no Leman Russ Tanks, but packs one helluva punch.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I think it's entirely possible we'll see a reduction in the price of guardsmen, or drop the squad size to five. Either/both of those would make the formations really nice. Rerolling ones, with the sheer number of shots we've got, is kind of insane. Mobile heavy weapons cushioned by 8 bodies is awesome. I really love the benefits of all these things, but simply can't deal with the cost.

 

Lone Emperor's Shield Platoon will soon find a home in my army, though.   

[WarriorFish]

Tank one is pretty good if you want to field a load of tanks and have them splatting things and being hard to stop - you'll still need some infantry escorts though. Probably direct fire tanks to make the most of BS4 too. As mentioned the whole lot seems rather expensive so just doesn't seem that good for it as at some point you're basically spending points to match the various formation stuff and are the bonuses that worthwhile?

 

I'm not big into formations though, so it may be a case I'm too used to the CAD. Or rather don't much like having my choices made for me...

[mertbl]

I dont think we will see smaller squad sizes. 10 man have always been the norm. I think 3rd or 4th let you have 1 understrength squad per platoon.

[Emicus]

The 'full on' Decurion is great if you want to roll with A LOT of Guardsmen (the aforementioned, what, 170?). If you want tanks I honestly don't see the point in even taking the HQ tank as it gives you bugger all for useful special rules.

​Just staple together formations :) Or staple formations onto a CAD to effectively give you a lot of heavy and FA slots to play with.

[greycat]

I just like the fact that now vox's can actually call in an artillery strike. I'll probably be taking that formation just for the fluff of it.

 

I've never heard of preferred enemy giving twinlinked to blasts. It's always just be rerolls to hit or to wound of 1. Blasts don't roll to hit in the same way therefore don't get rerolls

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The thing that get me is that, going off the current codex, the Core formations are prohibitively expensive, both points and money. the Infantry Company formation comes out to around 855 points with scout sentinels and is minimum 173 models. That's the 3 50 man platoons with the 3 PCS's, CCS, and 3 sentinels adds up to 173 models. That's a ton of stuff to move, and it's painful to think about. Now, if they had made it 1-3 of the Emperor's Shields instead of just a flat 3, that would be more useful. 

 

Now, possibly we could be seeing a drop in min unit size to 5 man IS, and the elimination of the heavy and special weapons squads, instead infantry squads being able to take up to 3 heavy weapons teams, or 3 special weapons. That might account for the discrepancy between the bundle and the rules. 

 

As for the formations themselves, well, I have to say I like the Emperor's Shield and the Emperor's Spear (paired with a min CAD of MT) and I like the MT Platoon, which gives me a way to use my Chimeras and Taurox Primes, and get some good mech troops. 

 

The full decurion has some good rules, but honestly I think the tank core is the better option, less models, and harder hitting. I'll just stick to stapling formations together onto a CAD for now so that I can actually use what I have. 

[march10k]

I don't think it's pointless if you already have the models for the infantry version.  Two blobs of 50, 5 infantry squads, and three PCSs is the way I'd run it if I were interested in the first place (I'm more a mech man, in spite of having ~250 metal cadians at my disposal, the chimera is just too good to leave at home).  It's just that most players don't have the 170 (165 leaves out the CCS) infantry in the first place, and it'd be expensive and time consuming to build up to that before the formation becomes history.

 

What I think is pointless is the decurion when fielding the tank formation as the core choice.  The decurion benefits are all for infantry, and you aren't taking any.   Why bother?  Meanwhile, you can't have Pask in the tank formation, only in the decurion HQ.  So why bother, unless you're wanting to avoid the two required troops choices of a CAD.  If you see value in a pair of veteran squads (at minimum), then there's absolutely no value in the decurion for you.  You just paste the tank formation (and, in my case, the sentinel formation) onto a CAD.  

 

The decurion only really makes sense if you want a horde infantry army...and even then, only if you have the models.  Inclusive of upgradess, it should run you ~1050 points for the 170 infantry, leaving 800 for planes, trains, and automobiles.  It is actually viable, and, yes, it does in fact fit inside your deployment zone if you want it to.  Maybe pair it with a CAD for another CCS or two to unlock the priests you'll want for the blobs (your blobs are packing five flamers, right?) and then pick up a couple russes of your choice.  That army would put a green tide to shame...I wouldn't rush out and buy the models, but if you already had them...

 

 

 

Now, possibly we could be seeing a drop in min unit size to 5 man IS

 

Well...a platoon did used to be able to have one "remnant squad" of fewer than ten men...not so sure we'll see the other things you mentioned...taking a five man squad and pasting on three autocannon teams would actually go a long way towards fixing the heavy weapons squad by providing the missing "ablative meat shields" that are currently missing....so there's no way we'll get that!  And the special weapons version would actually be OP...you could basically have a ten man infantry squad with three flamers...for 65 points.  I can hear the howls now...especially when you blob up multiples.  I think six flamers would be ideal for running around frying stuff, but nine would reach the critical mass needed to deter charges, lol.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Honestly right now I could field the emperor's shield (if the formation can consist of just 5 squads of any type, if it must be 5 IS's, I cant. The bundle disagrees with the rules). 

 

I think a case can be made for the infantry squad being dropped to 5 men, most other armies basic troops start at 5 men, and the Tau (who used to be 6) got dropped to 5 men minimum. 

 

Now if we consider that, and if we get to keep our ability to combine squads, we could see 12 man mech squads with 2 special weapons (which would be really cool). 

 

Still though, I think the Auxiliary formations provide enough special rules of their own that they can be used effectively attached to a CAD that they don't need the Decurion's special rules to be effective.

 

Especially when I can just take a CCS by itself as the command formation and an Emperor's Shield and an an Emperor's Spear attached to an MT CAD for ObSec Stormies with their own orders and use the infantry platoon to hold objectives and provide fire support. It seems to me that taking the core formation isn't woth giving up ObSec.

[Emicus]

What if the platoon demanded 5 units, as in HWT's and conscripts are accepted - would that fly?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

What if the platoon demanded 5 units, as in HWT's and conscripts are accepted - would that fly?

That I can manage, because I have 2 mortar squads, a Heavy Bolter squad, and autocannon squad and a missile launcher squad (all built as single model bases right now, I need an infantry squad box to fill in the extra spots on the bases. Those are in addition to my 3 infantry squads and my platoon command squad. All in all I can build a pretty stacked infantry platoon. 

 

I really like to use my infantry platoons for the heavy weapons squads, since I try to run stormtroopers to do the actual work.

[Terminus]

If 5 of any unit-type flies, I can build a full Death Korps of Krieg "Emperor's Shield" Company if I use some of my artillery crew as lasgun grunts.

 

Still doesn't leave any points for anything else in most typical-sized games.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

Still doesn't leave any points for anything else in most typical-sized games.

 

That's got to be my biggest issue with the way the rules are written. At bare minimum 1 Emperor's Shield and a CCS would neatly give you about 320 points (if the infantry company formation were written to be 1-3 Emperor's Shields) and plenty of models, and especially if 5 of any squad were the rule rather than 5 IS. 

 

Because then you could have something like this:

 

Command Formation:

CCS

 

Emperor's Shield Infantry Company

CCS

 

Emperor's Shield Infantry platoon:

PCS

IS

IS

HWS

HWS

Sentinel

 

Up to 3 auxiliary formations.

 

 

Honestly I think they didn't think it through when they came up with the rules, especially in relation to the other decurion style detachments. Or, this is a campaign specific decurion, and we'll see something a bit more comparable to the other codecies with a new IG release.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

I think we'll see something a bit more realistic in the actual codex next year. This is a "Cadian" Detachment not an "Astra Militarum" Detachment.

[HenricusTyranicus]

The buffs and such the formations give are pretty fantastic, if I had the models, I would play this thing so fast. The problem is just the majority of guard players don't own that many models, and it appears those who do only want to play mech armies.  

[duz_]

I picked up my LE copy today.

Unfortunately nothing new to add other than what has already been leaked.

 

However after reading the fluff from the campaign its very clear that the cadian battle group consisted of an emperors infantry platoon not company.

 

Which begs the question did they mess up the rules for and should the core be a EIP and not EIC. This would make the formation more flexible and affordable.

 

I have already emailed faq but doubt I will get a reply. Seems like a major oversight.

 

I imagine the EIC is like the 3 baneblade formation. Not part of the battle group but there if players want it.

 

On a whole the cadian supplement is nothing remarkable. Fortunately I also want the SM supplements so not all lost.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Would be kind of a dream come true if that were the case, but I doubt it, alas. 

[mertbl]

Does the tank commander still require a wingman? Is he bs4 base or just withing 12" of commander.

 

I picked up my LE copy today.

Unfortunately nothing new to add other than what has already been leaked.

 

However after reading the fluff from the campaign its very clear that the cadian battle group consisted of an emperors infantry platoon not company.

 

Which begs the question did they mess up the rules for and should the core be a EIP and not EIC. This would make the formation more flexible and affordable.

 

I have already emailed faq but doubt I will get a reply. Seems like a major oversight.

 

I imagine the EIC is like the 3 baneblade formation. Not part of the battle group but there if players want it.

 

On a whole the cadian supplement is nothing remarkable. Fortunately I also want the SM supplements so not all lost.