The first supreme grand master?

[Shadrach03]

Why hello there Mr. Garro

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Garro-Hand-of-the-Sigillite

[Captain Coolpants]

Can we even use him? Plus he has no psychic powers, would he even truly fit in with our army?

[Olis]

Here we go again. Garro and the Knights Errant don't become the Grey Knights. James Swallow pretty much debunked that fan-theory about three years ago by categorically saying Garro was not a Grey Knight.

[Kolvin]

I'm tempted to get him to make a Grand Master.

 

But I probably won't. Gonna invest in my Sisters of Battle.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Here we go again. Garro and the Knights Errant don't become the Grey Knights. James Swallow pretty much debunked that fan-theory about three years ago by categorically saying Garro was not a Grey Knight.

Pandorax refutes that by implication if not by direct assertion. GW routinely ret-con and change their minds about these things over time. Swallow has no more say over the canon than I do. Given the events of Pandorax, I'd say its not only possible, it's the only logical explanation for what transpires in that book. Otherwise, there would be have to be an entirely separate conspiracy to spirit away gifted Legion warriors. The Sigilite didn't gather the Knights-Errant together with no purpose in mind.

Also, Jago Sevatarion is the 8th Grand Master

[Shadrach03]

What can ya say RD, haters gonna hate. While he can't be used in a Grey Knights list I think it's great that there is a model beginning to tie the inquisition into 30k. So much potential for what's to come.

 

Edit: What evidence of Sevatarion being a finding chapter master? I'm always interested in finding out more about the founding of the chapter.

[Olis]

Here we go again. Garro and the Knights Errant don't become the Grey Knights. James Swallow pretty much debunked that fan-theory about three years ago by categorically saying Garro was not a Grey Knight.

Pandorax refutes that by implication if not by direct assertion. GW routinely ret-con and change their minds about these things over time. Swallow has no more say over the canon than I do. Given the events of Pandorax, I'd say its not only possible, it's the only logical explanation for what transpires in that book. Otherwise, there would be have to be an entirely separate conspiracy to spirit away gifted Legion warriors. The Sigilite didn't gather the Knights-Errant together with no purpose in mind.

Also, Jago Sevatarion is the Third Grand Master

I find the whole fan theory pretty shaky, to be honest. There's little evidence to support it (bearing in mind I have not read Pandorax*) and there's much that disagrees with the proposed conclusion.

We'll start off on one of the most argued points, the first grand master was called Janus. For the theory to be true, Garro must change his name for some reason or another. Sure, there is ways and means, narratively, to force Garro to take on the Janus name but it could hardly be any less contrived if it tried. Why would he need to change his name? He's already a known enemy to the Warmaster's rebellion, he has nothing to hide. He's lost his Legion and his colours, just what exactly would prompt him to give up his name?

The other contentious oft-mentioned point is the matter of Garro being blunter than the rubber end of a pencil. We all know Grey Knights are all supposed to be psychic, so why would a founding member not be? Surely they'd want to start as they meant to go on. The Grey Knights are specifically tailored to deal with daemonic enemies. Garro certainly doesn't meet that criteria - he is not specialised in such a way and isn't psychic. Is he adept at inter-astartes war? Probably. The rules for him definitely point that way. But daemons? That's a different kettle of fish. To my knowledge, Garro's faced daemons on the Eisenstein and that's pretty much it. He barely got away with that encounter as it was. Now, not to put him down, others have faced daemons and it was a close run thing for them, too. Daemons are obviously dangerous. There are more suitable candidates than Garro available however (Rubio for example, if he wakes up).

There is also the implication (or in many cases the outright assertion) that, surely, there must be more in store for Garro and his men beyond the Heresy. But why? He's already gone through some significant character progression and story involvement regarding the Horus Heresy. And let's not forget the whole-sale expansion of his original entity into what it is now. He's gone from being one of the original dissenting Eisenstein officers (in a little less than a page of background material) to a primary character in his very own (not insignificant) story arc. Of course Malcador did not gather the Knights Errant with no purpose in mind - they are performing the very task he set out for them in the series right now. But surely there must be more to the arc than this , right? Well, if that means that Garro must become a Grey Knight, then the proponents are inserting their own narrative to turn the whole theory into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Dots are being connected that just aren't there.

It is of importance to note that Lexicanum entertains the Knights Errant=Grey Knight theory as if it were fact and presents it as such (referencing the Garro audio books) - this is another reason to be wary of publicly edited information resources. The theory is disputed by James Swallow and by fans - although relying solely on his word is flawed and an appeal to authority. It's possible that the plan has changed in the three years since he made his statement. However, this is his own playground to run around in and so his word is as close to 'Word of God' as we're going to get on the issue. In my opinion, appeal to authority or not, James Swallow stating Garro was not a Grey Knight is a pretty big blow to the fan-theory (one that has been consistently ignored by many people for a variety of reasons).

Unfortunately for the theory the only true supporting evidence for it is that Malcador sought out various astartes that were "worthy". This does indeed corroborate with the same MO used to recruit the Knights Errant... but that's pretty much it. It is circumstantial evidence at best. Malcador could look outside of his Knights with little problem and find twelve suitable psykers (what with all Grey Knights being psykers). Hell, he could even get the Knights Errant to find them themselves. I can think of at least one organisation outside of the Knight Errant that also has members from across many Legions, traitor and loyalist: The Black Shields.

I'll make a concession, though. Could it be possible that some Knights Errant become the Grey Knights? I think so. But just not Garro.

* Incidentally, do you have quotes to hand?

[Slips]

I personally subscribe to th Janus = Omegon theory :p

[Prot]

I was going to post that Garro pic.... I don't know if he becomes 'the one' or not, but I won't debate it using past author's takes on it because we all know that stuff can be thrown out the window whenever Black Library decides to turn their attention to the Grey Knights (at this pace I'd say the GK part of the HH storyline will probably be out in 2035).

But I don't take Garro as not being psychic as a negative sign. It could be as simple as the Emperor or Malcador 'touching' him with the 'gift' and all the sudden he starts cleansing flame-ing all the Tau I play! Whoops sorry... some personal 40K issues popping up there. My apologies.

But for fun I would declare Garro a very good fit because:

- He has unshakable loyalty to the Emperor.

- He has resisted crossing loyalties even when his very gene brothers could/would not.

- He has first hand experience with the First Founding legions and his partaking in 'special ops' to defend/help Dorn and the Emperor. He's seen some serious stuff!

^I think that criteria (loyalty etc) is a bigger component than Psychic ability as I could see GW/BL making that available to him by other means.

In saying this I think an equal argument could be made for Loken.

All I'm saying is if I wrote Garro up as leading the Grey Knights he would join my army with the following rules:

- Tau can't shoot at him. Because fish don't deserve to shoot GK's.

- Garro gets Cleansing Flame inherently: A 24" radius, 60" if against Tau. 6D6 hits.

- Preferred Enemy Tau

- Invisible to Tau.

- Now add all of Draigo's rules.

There. Now I'd use him all the time. Some may accuse me of inserting a personal meta bias issue I seem to be having, but I don't see it!

(P.S. Just to be perfectly clear, this is meant to be a joke. If it was serious, I would have given him more Anti-Tau rules)

[Slips]

Like S:D shooting and CC with +5 on the Destroyer Table?

 

Only reason I believe in the Omegon = Janus Theory (there was a topic on this in the AoD section) is becuase of the following:

-Janus has read and memorised a book (dont remember which), that no other GK has ever been able to since

-Omegon had a suit of unpainted Power Armor in his room

-Like most or all Primarchs, had some Psychic shenanigans going for him

-Was roughly the size of an Astartes and could thus fit in

-The theme of Janus (the deity) fits with the Alpha Legion imo

-Could have been the one to bring over the Stolen Gene Matrix (that was it right) that the Alpha Legion got from the RG to make some pretty uniquely-awesome space marines with

-What better to lead a Nascent chapter than a Primarch?

[Olis]

But I don't take Garro as not being psychic as a negative sign. It could be as simple as the Emperor or Malcador 'touching' him with the 'gift' and all the sudden he starts cleansing flame-ing[...]  

 

I'm pretty sure this falls under 'deus ex machina', brother. ^_^

[Demus Ragnok]

Didn't Pandorax state that the original GMs had their gene seed swapped out for new Grey Knight gene seed?

 

If so, Garro+new Emperor infused Gene Seed=possible psyker upgrade!

[jeffersonian000]

The original Grand Masters did not need to be Psykers, they just needed to form a cadre of highly skilled snd experienced instructors to train the newly recruited Psykers into the finest Astarte the Imperium had ever seen.

 

And yes, I too think Janus was Omegon.

 

SJ

[Leonaides]

Was he a grey knight - no. Does it necessarily follow that he must be a grey knight to lead the grey knights? No.

[Plasmablasts]

Hasn't there also been a theory that Sevatar was Khyron, the original eighth Grand Master? I'm not sure of all the details, barring the circumstantial: Sevatar's disappearance, the oddly informal pose of Khyron's statue, the halberd (as a replacement for his signature chain-glaive) and the inscription that speaks of betrayal.

 

There's also an odd detail a little later in The Emperor's Gift, as squad Castian approach the prognosticar's tower. The two paladins guarding the entrance are described with their heraldry (which is unusual as I don't think ADB even describes the heraldry of squad Castian's members). One features a crow (not a particularly heraldic bird - a raven would have been more likely), the other crossed halberds. The juxtaposition of these again suggests Sevatar (the "Prince of Crows"). They do appear rather out of context however.

[VVolf]

* Spoilers for Mortarion's Heart*

 

 

Mortarion's Heart presents strong evidence that Garro was Janus or at least from a traitor legion. When Draigo says the name Janus, the Death Lord starts laughing and mocks 'noble, pious Janus', saying he is just like him and if Draigo knew Janus' real identity it would cause the GK to doubt their faith. He describes how names of power work both ways and says the original 8 were from the 'Sigilite's errant angels'.

 

The most convincing bit is when he says Janus turned his back on his brothers for some 'half imagined redemption'.

 

I get the impression Mortarion knew him. He also doesn't outright tell Draigo anything but hints, so I doubt he was lying.

[Slips]

The same passage also lends Credence to the Omegon Theory though due to its ambiguity.

[jeffersonian000]

Pretty sure GW just stated Garro was not Janus.

 

SJ

[Everon]

As for the name change part, it is said the power of names, thus every grey knight has to have their name changed. Yes Mortarion does call out Janus, but it could be that he is Garro, which most claims say no, or that he is Omegon, which I've never read enough to know how that could be, but is possible. Although for a primarch to fail where Draigo doesn't, is a bit absurd. Better odds of it being Garro

[jeffersonian000]

You are forgetting the Omegon was a mini-Primarch, just as all Grey Knights are. Draigo is a mini-Primarch at the top of his game, while Mortarion is a daemon with daemonic strengths and limitations. Also, its a story told by the victor, with embellishment.

 

SJ

[Prot]

You are forgetting the Omegon was a mini-Primarch, just as all Grey Knights are. Draigo is a mini-Primarch at the top of his game, while Mortarion is a daemon with daemonic strengths and limitations. Also, its a story told by the victor, with embellishment.

 

SJ

 

Mortarion is most definitely a Daemon "Prince" + A Primarch. That's a big cup to fill up with juicy warp stuff. (The standard grey knight I'm reluctant to call mini-primarchs though unless we want to classify all space marines that way.) The Omegon is a cool theory I never thought of... but it could make sense and open up a phenomenal story arch towards the attack on Terra (if we ever get there!).

 

The Grey Knights having Omegon lead them through a few hundred years (of warp time), fighting daemons is a very cool visual and there's a ton of material there if they get the right author on it.... that would lead to a lot of possibilities.

[Black_out]

This topic seems to come up pretty frequently.

 

Personally, I could definitely see the Knights Errant becoming the Grey Knights easily enough. I could also see Garro, deus ex machina aside, becoming Janus, there is an absurd amount of latent and repressed psykers in the universe.

 

The thing that really stuck in my craw was Sevatar being one of the original Grand Masters. It pains me to say this but I believe that this could also definitely be possible. I've always wondered if his quote of "Death to the false Emperor" wasn't actually in reference to Horus. Iirc he said it following one of Lorgars grand speeches. What if Sev, being a repressed psyker, sensed the corruption within Lorgar & Horus and was sickened by it? Deciding then and there to depose them as best he could. It could be one explanation of his absence during the scouring. The potential easter egg in The Emperors Gift also kind of supports this idea.

 

Now I truly hope beyond all reasoning this IS NOT true. Sevatar is probably my favorite character in the 30k universe aside from maybe Loken and I want him to stay traitor 'til the end. Maybe dying in a rematch duel against Sigismund atop the walls of the Emperor's Palace? Or maybe he'll pop up in 40k out of the blue and finally reunite all the Night Lords into a cohesive army again. Who knows lol.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pandorax established as canon that the original 8 were all former Legionaries who renounced their origins and took on new gene-seed to replace their old augmentations. 'Mortarion's Heart' only further reinforces that with further hints as to Janus's origins. 

 

Sevatar is 8th Grand Master for the following reasons;

 

- He's the halberd master of the 30k era (stated multiple times no one is deadlier with a chainglaive, and outside the Primarchs, he's ranked as one of the most lethal warriors in existence at that time)

- Khyron uses a halberd

- Khyron's quote from 'Emperor's Gift' hints heavily that his past is anything but noble, and his perspective on war is about as nihilistic and devoid of romanticism as can be. Something the Night Lords were notorious for, being brutally unashamed of their status as sanctioned monsters and avatars of terror. 

[Lord Blackwood]

Some tidbits from the new garro novella do not click if you plan to read it , I just figured they were relevant to this discussion. 

‘I have passed back and forth across the stars through secretive byways, and by means that only the Sigillite understands,’ he said quietly. ‘I have dug up a dead man who lost his mind, stolen a loyal son from his brothers… These and many others, all to press-gang them into the same ghost army I now march with. For what? For a purpose whose design is beyond my ken? So that Malcador can have his grey legion for tomorrow’s wars? That is not what I hoped for. It is not who I wish to be.’

 

James Swallow. Garro: Vow of Faith (Kindle Locations 1277-1281). Black Library. 

‘Whatever great schema the Sigillite plans to assemble, I am not a part of his endgame. He confronted me on Titan, in the hall of the hidden fortress that even now he builds for his knights. I knew then. I am his tool. It is true that his purpose aligned with mine, for a while… but I look over my shoulder now and see that they diverged a long time ago.’

 

James Swallow. Garro: Vow of Faith (Kindle Locations 1285-1287). Black Library. 

Garro walked on, wondering how many others there were like him, at large in the galaxy at this moment. How many men in grey, featureless armour at the Sigillite’s beck and call? He considered what he had seen on a mist-wreathed moon of Saturn and the moment of insight that had come to him there. My fate does not lie on Titan, he had told himself. He would have to trust that it would reveal itself in due time, rather than allow itself to be sought out.

 

James Swallow. Garro: Vow of Faith (Kindle Locations 1968-1971). Black Library. 

 

[jeffersonian000]

Yeah, GW seems to be adamant about Garro, despite all their work otherwise. This is why I'm still a firm believer in Alpharous or Omegon as Janus.

 

SJ