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Veterans vs Stormtroopers


Ulrik_Ironfist

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So, Over the past few days I've really been asking myself what the best choice is in terms of troops. Do I use DKoK Grenadiers, Elysian Vets, Regular Vets, or Militarum Tempestus.

 

I am really having a hard time deciding, because each one offers something that the others don't.

 

On one hand, DKoK Grenadiers are WS4, lack deep strike and MTC, but get the HSLG and can take 2 SW. On the other Scions get DS and MTC, and Vets are just cheaper. 

 

I have about 23 Kasrkin Models that I use, and I can't seem to figure out what rules fit them best. I'm mostly curious about fluff, how are the Kasrkin employed, are they just air assault troops, or mechanized troops, or are they drop troops? 

 

How would you break down the rule, which is the better set?

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I'm not sure if there's much to read about how the Kasrkin work. They were always described as an elite of Cadia comparable with Stormies in equipment and training so I'd say they're all of the above just like Stormies. Looking more Cadian they work well as carapace Vets in such an army as you'd expect.

 

Trying to find the rules that fits best seems a little counter productive. They're basically Stormies but you can do what you like with them, why constrain yourself? Take them however you like in each game :tu:

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In an 1850 list I can get my Emperor's Spear, a Rune Priest, 2 AssCan PFHF dreads, 2 vindicators, a Krieg command squad, 2 squads of PG Grenadiers, and a 2 Infantry squad platoon. That gives me 6 squads of infantry (2 basic, 2 grenadiers, and the 2 command squads) to hold objectives, and if I use the forlorn hope rule, I get unlimited infantry bodies, but I get an objective I must claim.

 

Exchanging Kreig for standard C:AM lets me get 2 mounted squads of demo 2MG vets w/ML, 2 squads of air assault carapace 2PG vets, and a mounted command squad. I lose 1 squad from what the Kreig list gets me, but my infantry becomes more mobile and are better protected.

 

C:MT, I can get a Mounted command squad, 1 mounted scion squad, and 2 air assault scion squads. Which is a huge reduction in the number of infantry I have to hold objectives, which puts me at a disadvantage in maelstrom missions. On one hand though if my scions scatter out of the valks, they ignore the difficult terrain test, and I have the option to deep strike them without the valkyries, which neither of the other lists allows me to do. 

 

Elysian vets can take valks as dedicated transport and the flyers are overall cheaper, but that's evened out by the cost of the units. I am getting kind of bored with the Elysian's rules, since they just hit so hard on the first turn, but struggle to keep up the pressure. I face a lot of space marines so I really feel that I need the AP3 from the hotshots to even things out.

 

Each list has advantages, and disadvantages, but which do you think would be the most fun to play?

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Personally I use vets. While they may lack the mobility of scions, their numbers, the ability to take 3 special weapons, and the ability to take the chimera (which IMO is far better than the taurox) make them a much more permanent threat than the scions

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I think I'm going to use the Kreig list, as I like their fluff, and I eventually want to get their minis. I think the Kreig Assault brigade list fits my fluff a bit better than any of the others. My Jotunheim Regiments aren't all drop troops, though some of them certainly are, and they are more foot slogging light infantry with Air Assault/Mechanized Heavy Infantry. 

 

My infantry are all cadian shock troops minis and the kasrkin look better with them as grenadiers, with their Carapace armor and their hotshot lasguns. 

 

I'll use my tempestus models as tempestus now, since they don't really fit aesthetically with the cadian models, looking like Prussian Curassiers. To be a deep strike support force. 

 

I just bought some kasrkin grenade launcher singles and sgt kell (for my banner) in my counts as kreig list. I'll just use my kasrkin as carapace vets in my regular AM lists.

 

Thanks for being my sounding board guys.

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I think with hot shot las guns the Scions rules are certainly the closest match. But whatever floats your boat, couldn't see an opponent complaining if you tell them what they are.

 

Too bad GW retired them, they're still nice models considering they date back to the Eye of Terror campaign. I still have a couple squads of the old metal Stormies with the goggle masks.

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I wish that the grenadiers doctrine was more like what you get with Kreig Grenadiers. Grenadiers have always been elite Heavy Infantry. Kasrkin have been described as Grenadiers. 

 

The Scions are pretty much what grenadiers should have been. Whereas they should have been true stormtroopers. Able to deep strike, infiltrate, or scout, and giving them MTC helps all of those things. Stormtroopers should have the hotshot pistols and close combat weapons, and/or WS4. They need to offer a distinct difference from grenadier veterans. Each unit should have advantages over the others, like how veterans would be cheaper while stormies would be more versatile.

 

Stormies should also have access to locator beacons as wargear, to make them useful to assist deep striking units, like grenadier vets hopping out of valkyries. 

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Hmmm... Well to me there are (should be) 4 main infantry types for ig for the most part

 

Standard infantry (platoons and veterans without doctrines)

 

Light infantry via forward sentries doctrine which used to be available to platoons and ifrc also gave Scout or infiltrate or something like that which it should now also, plus possibly move through cover.

 

If light infantry got infiltrate, Scout, MTC, cammo gear, snare mines they should be forbidden dedicated transports and grenadiers like they used to...

 

Heavy infantry aka grenadiers. Carapace armor, possibly hot shot las guns, krak grenades included, possibly deep strike.

 

Stormtroopers/scions would be grenadiers and forward sentries combined... Carapace armor and cammo gear, Scout, infiltrate, MTC, deep strike, snare mines, hot shot las guns dedicated transports (tho the dt can't deep strike or infiltrate (unless it already could)that doesn't make much sense of you ask me but I digress...)

 

Idk if they just improve what's in the codex now just a little bit I'll be happy ..

 

I dread that they hide almost all the improvements inside of formations tho...

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Yeah, a formation boost is a no-go in my book. Formations are fun and they can be great, but being able to use the standard CAD and still have decent choices should be an option. Let us play the game the way we want, don't choke us with the formations. 

 

I'd be a bit hesitant to give Stormies camo gear, since that seems a bit OP, but definitely deep strike, infiltrate, and move through cover. I'd leave the Snare mines and cam gear for the forward sentries doctrine, give forward sentries scout and move through cover in addition. Maybe give stormies the option for locator beacons so that deep striking units can land without scatter, and give them a special weapon that's good for bringing down MC's, it would be nice if they could take grav, but I can see that staying a SM thing. 

 

Grenadiers would just be carapace, grenades, and hotshots, with the ability to take 3 special weapons, vox, and a heavy weapons team. That would make them different from stormies. In my army stormies would infiltrate with beacons for the grav chuting grenadiers to land near, precisely placing them in perfect positions for punishing fusillades of fire!

 

hows that for alliteration...

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Well given GW's sordid love affair with formations that will probably be the main new thing in the codex

I'm ok with formations, and with them providing boosts. I just don't want to see a mediocre unit get boosted as to make them only worth it in their formation.

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As a player of both IG and pure stormtroopers, I'd advise staying far, far away from using stormtroopers as your troops.  They're just too dad-blamed expensive for that.  Super-scorers need numbers even if they're T4 and power armored.  Stormies are in the same price range, but without the T4 and power armor.  They pay those points, on a per model basis, for cool stuff like deepstrike and move through cover...the problem is that their benefit from those special rules doesn't scale with squad size.  As such, the ideal squad size is 5.  If it was a flat 10 points for the squad to have those rules (mandatory), and then additional models after the first five were cheaper, then maybe...or if you got one special weapon per three guys (although that would make six the sweet spot, I suppose?).  Anyway, stormtroopers are specialists in the arts of killing people and breaking things, they don't do well when asked to take and hold ground.

 

So, I'm going  to recommend kriegers!

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As a player of both IG and pure stormtroopers, I'd advise staying far, far away from using stormtroopers as your troops.  They're just too dad-blamed expensive for that.  Super-scorers need numbers even if they're T4 and power armored.  Stormies are in the same price range, but without the T4 and power armor.  They pay those points, on a per model basis, for cool stuff like deepstrike and move through cover...the problem is that their benefit from those special rules doesn't scale with squad size.  As such, the ideal squad size is 5.  If it was a flat 10 points for the squad to have those rules (mandatory), and then additional models after the first five were cheaper, then maybe...or if you got one special weapon per three guys (although that would make six the sweet spot, I suppose?).  Anyway, stormtroopers are specialists in the arts of killing people and breaking things, they don't do well when asked to take and hold ground.

 

So, I'm going  to recommend kriegers!

Yeah, stormies have their uses, but that's kind of what my line of reasoning is too. Thanks for that breakdown March!

 

Here's another thing, can C:MT take vultures? I mean do they count as an Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum army? 

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Why not make it like a soccer team?

 

Scions in Taurox prime or chimera as your forward troops; all weapons are very short range and have a lot of flexibility for getting there.

 

Vets in chimera as mid-field, maybe with cheap heavy weapons for incidental turns when you don't move.

 

Vets in the rear with (amusingly) forward observers, sniper rifles and autocannons.  These are dirt-cheap objective grabbers and if your opponent wants to devote resources to removing a 89 point squad with stealth, then they have bought you time for reprisal with their sacrifice.

 

Season to taste with tanks and flyers.

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Why not make it like a soccer team?

 

Scions in Taurox prime or chimera as your forward troops; all weapons are very short range and have a lot of flexibility for getting there.

 

Vets in chimera as mid-field, maybe with cheap heavy weapons for incidental turns when you don't move.

 

Vets in the rear with (amusingly) forward observers, sniper rifles and autocannons.  These are dirt-cheap objective grabbers and if your opponent wants to devote resources to removing a 89 point squad with stealth, then they have bought you time for reprisal with their sacrifice.

 

Season to taste with tanks and flyers.

I kinda had that in mind already, and it's not a half bad strategy. I'd probably use stormies for deep striking, for cross table objectives and linebreaker. 

 

Is there a rule that prevents us from taking more than one Vulture in a list?

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Why not make it like a soccer team?

Wearing silky clothes and rolling on the ground crying like babies over nothing? huh.png Sorry, B&C rules are clear: no discussing the Tau.

Thanks WF, I just spit coffee all over my computer.

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Ditto on March10k's post, MSU is the way to go with Stormies.

 

With regards to the Vulture, I think the current ruleset is FW Aeronatica Imperialis which designates it for imperial guard. Which of course predates AM and MT. I wouldn't have a problem with it, dunno tourney wise though.

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With regards to the Vulture, I think the current ruleset is FW Aeronatica Imperialis which designates it for imperial guard. Which of course predates AM and MT. I wouldn't have a problem with it, dunno tourney wise though.

 

This.  Clearly, FW:AI says "IG" gets to use it...well, IG doesn't exist any more, now does it?  So the poncey TO can either allow MT to field it or they can deny it to both MT and AM.  Or issue a refund.  But for casual play, it's certainly ok.

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I was wondering about that. I don't play tournaments, so it wouldn't b a huge issue I guess. I still can't seem to find any rules that say IG is restricted to one per detachment though anyone have info on that. Battlescribe won't let me take multiples except with Elysians.

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