Is the answer to take more Bikes? Or less?

[Frater Cornelius]

I have been shanghaied into a discussion about bikes. Oh well, nothing to be done. The only issue is, I have no bloody clue what I am doing. Most of my arguments and lists are based on theory and not so much on practical experience, since I have not played RW that extensively and neither do I face it. I am taking a break and have no played in two months, so that isn't helping either.

Allow me to give you the required starting info:

Hidden Content

RWSF
Librarian - ML2, Bike, Auspex, Axe
RW Command (5) - Apothecary, RW Banner
5 Bikes - 2 Grav, MB
5 Bikes - 2 Grav, MB
Trike - MM
Trike - MM

RWSS
Dark Shroud - AsC
3 Land Speeders - HB/AsC

Iron Hands Allies
Chapter Master - Artificer Armour, Shield Eternal, Bike, Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts - MB, LSS

1450

This is where I am stuck.

For one I am not entirely conviced that Grav is the most effective. That is 4 hits per bike unit and around 1 wound against a Wraith Knight. Everything else can get killed by Plasma Talons and Meltas.

Also, I have no idea how to properly support a RW Bike list except with more Bikes. When Bikes were Troops, there was this amazing option of adding Sicaran Battle Tanks and a Fire Raptor. Now that is much harder because it requires Troops.

Speaking of Troops, could Tacs with Razorbacks work? Or is the answer just to stick in more Bikes? Because that sounds awefully one-dimensional and boring. I do not mind converting it into a CAD.

Also, is that Chapter Master necessary? I am trying to account for all the Ignore Cover shenanigans going around. Between Tau, D-Flamers, Tigurius and that new White Scars relic I wonder how much that Ravenwing Jink is to be relied on these days.

Anyway, can anyone unstick me and point me in the right direction?

Cheers

[PhilB]

What about more speeders? Have you tried putting your bike squads into RW Attack Squadrons instead of the RW Strike Force?

Then you can tool out the bikes and speeders to compliment each other towards a specific role and leverage the +1 BS while doing it.

I'm still in the camp of Grav>other specials for bikes myself, I use HB/AC 'speeders with them in RWAS's and go hunting any type of infantry. 3 gravs (if you go combi) with the assault cannon can make a real mess of elitey things & if you're shooting hordes with bad saves you've still got bolters/heavy bolter & assault cannon.

I prefer to leave the melta to single squads of attack bikes, sneaking them around the table. The first turn turbo boost auto jink helps here as it lets them swing round for hopefully a non snap shooting chance in melta range.

Your RWSS is a lot more aggressive than I usually go, I tend to go with the HB/TML and hang back a bit.

 

You could go CAD and mix green with black if you want some Ob Sec, but I find the rule book CAD so boring now personally, I think I've run a CAD once since the new book came out!

Least that'll let you get your Fire Raptor & Sicarans in there.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You actually don't need the Iron Hands Captain America because Sammael is a half decent one and yes, the answer is always more bikes. Well, not more bikes, but RW is all about synergy so the more RW parts you have the more the synergy because more rpacial rules or the more focus points of special rules ..

You have to thing of RW as a raiding army... You have to be able to strike a flank, and then turbo boost away to the other if things get grim. so what you have has to be able to do damage  on the run. Against armies that ignore cover, speed is the only option.

Also grav is effective because shots more than plasma and melta and gets rid of power armour really good. But you need also Multi-meltas and other anti tank so that the grav are targetting what they excel to kill.

[Master Avoghai]

one I am not entirely conviced that Grav is the most effective. That is 4 hits per bike unit and around 1 wound against a Wraith Knight. Everything else can get killed by Plasma Talons and Meltas.

 

I think you look at it the wrong way.

 

1st : it's 6 shot/ squad vs 4 for the plasma and 2 for the meltas. Meaning you can hit with everything hence 6 hits vs 4 and 2. You can say that it is unlikely to happen, but since you have a libby that can cast divinination or since RW can field attack squadrons that gain +1BS, ist may happen more than you think.

2nd : against MC, you don't roll vs the T. Meaning that often, you'll roll on 3+ (wraithknights) or 2+(riptide).

 

Finally you rarely need worse to wound with a grav, and even if you're equal, you have more shots/hits.

 

3rd don't forget that the grav doesn't replace the TL bolters meaning that against low armor models you may use the bolters instead.

 

4th no overheat with grav, meaning the only way to lose the 42pts models is under ENEMY's shot ;)

 

 

I don't play full grav myself, But I don't field any plasma on my bikes. I own 4 squadron. 2 with grav, one with meltas one with flamers. I think it's a good ratio

[Frater Cornelius]

@ PhilB - RWAS are a good idea. However, I have been given a 3-detachment limit. If I drop Cpt. America, that would mean only one RWAS on top of RWSS and whatever I want to use as a primary detachment.

However, the idea appeals to me. I might add a specialist squad as RWAS for a specific purpose. I really like your dedicated anti-infantry idea. I might do the same for anti-tank.

 

Running the RWSS with Assault Cannons would be a Meta choice more than anything else. There are plenty of deep striking shenanigans going on with Tiggy or Hunter's Eye, usually with Cents, deep striking D-Flamers and so forth. Most of those units, specifically Cents, will not really care for Typhoons, while the AsC have a better chance to cripple them on arrival.

 

@ Lucy - I like the idea of this hit and run play style, but do you think it can be these days? The most threatening armies are either fast enough, bring 36" weapons, or both.

Also, I get that you want to build on the synergy within a wing, but it increasingly seems to me that DA are three armies in one book. Isn't it a bit wasteful to disregard 2/3 of the army? Well, say 50% because DW isn't as extensively represented as GW.

But maybe this is the baggage I brought over from SW and BA and DA are meant to choose a wing before things get started. That is what I am here to find out :D

 

Anyway, the CAD vs RWSF issue. I feel more comfortable with a CAD because I can outflank certain elements without having to keep all of it in reserve. However, I am not sure how to capitalize on Troops in this setup.

 

And finally, do you think it is worth dropping either Sammy or the Chap to get more points for more dudes? Despite how much I like that unit, I feel that the RWCS is turning into a massive point-sink.

[SnakeChisler]

1500 is a slim total to be working with

 

The major issue I've found with Ravenwing isn't what weapons they have its the fact that an equivalent Scars list has Obj-sec, In truth everyone else has this problem with a lot of the formations but I digress.

 

For Ravenwing it's a straight up choice between Sam & an Interogator (with extra's) a Librarian is more of a support guy now we've lost PFG and gets added if you've got spare points

 

So for your list the obvious change would be iron hands conclave +interogator Chaplain

 

If your up against say a Wraithknight surprisingly enough the speeder formation with typhoon chips of enough wounds that unless its prioritised your other units will be able to finish it off.

 

A Dark Talon was one of my mvp's in a recent 1500 comp, the nerf bomb, bolter spam + blind checks & of course the rift cannon attracted fire away from my other units with double jink and the fact that no one really fetches anti air at 1500 it survived to Objective grab in hover mode late game

[Frater Cornelius]

I never said that 1500 is my limit. I am just saying that this is as far as I have gotten in writing something up. 1850 is the ultimate goal ;)

[SnakeChisler]

Fair enough

 

As another note in the comp I went to I also added a couple of dual Heavy Bolter speeders they were invaluable as well as in all the games I had they quietly chipped away at dug in infantry & low av armor out of range of small arms fire and came into their own versus the Ork horde. Whittling down 100 boys isn't going to happen with straight up rapid fire bolters.

[SvenONE]

Don't forget the ravenwing squad with the speeders are going to received a +1 to their BS.  So if you're running 2 grav and a combi, you're talking about hitting 83% of your 9 shots (7) and if it's against a 2+ you're going to hit about 6 with the grav guns.  I wouldn't say that grav guns are THE goto weapon as it still depends on the situation.  But more bikes add to reliable shooting.  Tacticals don't really kill very much, they are pretty much there to advance, distract, occupy and be tough to kill.  Bikes on the other hand are mobile and pack weaponry that can actually kill things.

 

Low point games are always a little tough on bikes as they add up really quickly.  I think Lion's Blade with multiple Auxillary RWAS is a good solid base of a list for your idea of adding more tactical marines.

[Frater Cornelius]

The idea appeals actually. Lion's Blade with one Demi, two RWAS and a RWSS sounds like a fun mix. Alas, I am highly turned off buy the need to include Devastators, which have absolutely no place in my vision, and I am not too keep on Assault Marines either.

[PhilB]

I felt the same way about assault marines, then I bought some and tried them, you might be surprised. The read quite underwhelming on paper but these boys are Johnny on the spot with the support, even more so if you take a jump Chaplain/CM as your warlord and attach him to it. A jump assault squad with an IC can really help out your shooty boys when/if they get bogged down in melee.

Plus you could also suicide them in a pod with 3 flamers on turn 1 to saturate that back field heavy weapons camper you don't want to eat shots from all game.

 

As for the devs, you could always use them a 'pseudo' tactical squad and give them 1 heavy weapon.

 

a Lion's Blade with a mechanised demi-co, 2x RWAS & a RWSS would be a fun list to play.

[SvenONE]

I felt the same way about the lions blade/demi at the same time, but when you realize that you are getting the overwatch bonus both devastators and assault marines are a LOT more attractive.  One of the issues I always felt devastators had was that all you need to do to make them go from the expensive unit to a worthless one is get into close combat.  A group of trash troops can get in there and just nullify them.  Now even the most toughest warriors would think twice before assaulting 2 grav cannon devastators.

 

Assault troops I'm still on the fence about, Stubborn makes them pretty good to throw at units and not care about losing anyone.  Pretty good tarpitters.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, so here is a prototype:

Hidden Content

Demi

Captain - AA, JP, Auspex

3x 5 Tacs - Plasma, LasPlas Razorback

5 Devs - 2 Grav Cannons, Rhino

5 RAS - JP, 2 Flamers, MB on sergeant

 

2x RWAS

6 Bikes - 2 Meltas, MB on sergeant

MM Trike

Speeder with Dual MM

(the second one can be changed to a Grav-anti-MC/Inf build, so I would have one Melta and one Grav unit)

 

RWSS

Darkshroud - AsC

3 Speeders - HB/AsC

 

1800pts - still got 50 left for Dozerblades and/or gear for the Captain.

[Master Avoghai]

I totally agree with SvenONE and PhilB : the assault marines and devastators are great choices and often underrated choices which can make the difference though.

 

Before the Lion's blade came to life, I used to play an infantry strong army : 3x10 marines. 2x10 assault. 1x10 devastator and despite I couldn't compare with the wraithknight cheeze armies, I had good success with this built. You bring number, which is not usual with marines. The fact that I could split all my squads made also the thing difficult for my opponent because I could contest all the objective and could easily sacrifice one little unit to occupy one of his deathstar.

 

It's even better now. I can play really offensively if I equip my devastator with grav cannons and pods. Moreover, the devastators and the assault marines in a demi company are OS! You can grab an objective using your assault with your 12" move and prevent anyone to grab yours once you get your deva on it with their full BS overwatch.

I ALWAYS give an axe to the vet sgt, particulary when I deploy an IC in the assault squad. That way, I can kill whatever I meet with this hidden S5AP2 while the IC is in a challenge.

 

On your list, I'd personnaly give a mace of redemption to the captain and a power axe on the assault sgt

[MasterRaath]

Speaking as a new player, I've gotta say Assault Marines with a Chappy (not even Int, just vanilla chappy from the demi-co) have proven to be real stand outs to me. I'm told they were rather lackluster in previous editions due to fast attack being jammed up with better options for a CAD but that's not the case with the current dex. I actually had to go and ASK some of my 40k vet buddies about it because I didn't understand why they're so underrated. As far as devs the first few games I played with them they were nearly useless, then someone suggested I put 2x gravs in a rhino and since then they've proven to be far more effective. Just my perspective as someone who had NO preconceived notions from past editions.

[Master Avoghai]

I think that you nailed out the problem : preconceived based previous editions.

 

The funny is I remember v3. At the time, a tactical marine coste 16pts, an assault marines 25pts and a RW bike costed about 40pts :blink:

 

And the bikes didn't have access to grav, the jink save was only a 6+ inv save and they didn't have hit&run or scout...

 

At that time clearly, the assault marines were played extensively and the bikes were left away except for pure RW armies. I even remember posting a reply on B&C on a topic whose title was more or less "bikes in multiwing army : any use?"

 

I remember saying that everything I could do with a bike squad, I could do better or equal with assault squad.

Assaulting? 10x3 attack on charge vs 6x2 for the same cost

Tank hunting ? The PP only costed 5pts hence I could field 2 + melta bombs + fist on the sg vs the meltas and the sgt of the RW

Moving ? Both moved of 12" and the assault marines could pass over terrain.

 

The only reply was "the role were not the same, the bikes were made for mid range shooting harrasment"... Problem was at that time, we were on a meta based on charging and mid range fusillade were nearly impossible due to model points cost and weapons profiles.

 

Then we passed to 5th edition where assaulting was difficult, mid range fusillade were more effective, assault marines slighty moved at 20pts but bike cost drastically dropped to 33pts. Meltas became compulsory to open a tank and plasma cost raised to 15pts. The cost vs effect slipped clearly in favor of the bikes.

 

And I think most people remained on this last concept, particulary by ignoring that now, assault marines :

- are objective secured in a Lion's blade/gladius

- cost the same as a tactical marine and drop one shot at 12" for one more attack in CC

- can get a 12" move + HoW for only 3pts

 

We'not anymore in a pure shooting meta. We need cheap, fast units that can grab objective and redeploy to counter charge any enemy units that may enter in our deployment zone. Assault marines are perfect for this role. They are also perfect to act as additionnal wounds for any character. Thanks to deathwing rule, all of our characters are fearless and there fore ignore totally the loss around them.nid your enemy doesn't want your Gm with jumppack and hammer in his lines he'd better use all his firepower on the assault squad and the boss, providing he's able to...

[twopounder]

More bikes is always the answer!

[Frater Cornelius]

Or maybe the answer is to take less bikes? I usually get hung up on patterns. One Command Squad and two Bike Squads. Always. Maybe that is wrong though? Here is another take on mixed wing:

 

Hidden Content

3 Detachments, which is usually the limit given by tournaments.

 

CAD

Sammael

Librarian - ML2, Bike, Auspex, Conversion Field

RWCS (6) - Apothecary

10 Tacs - Plasma, GC, Rhino with Dozer Blade

10 Tacs - Plasma, GC, Rhino with Dozer Blade

Void Shield - 3 Charges

 

RWAS

6 Bikes - 2 Grav, Combi-Grav

Trike - MM

LSV - AsC

 

RWSS

3 Speeders - 3 HB/AsC

Darkshroud - AsC

 

1850pts

 

Being protected by the Darkshroud, Interceptor rule and 3 Void Shields, alpha strike will have a hard time doing major damage. In terms of shooting, the Librarian can keep Prescience up on the LSV, who in turn will grant the Bike Squad +1BS should the target survive.

 

The Librarian would go with the Command Squad and benefit from their Skilled Rider while Sammy will go with the Bike Squad and grant them Skilled Rider while also being in a better position to use his Plasma Cannon.

 

The Tacs would either deploy the GC in the deployment zone if I know the opponent will close the gap and have the Rhino carry the Plasma to an Objective, or both Combat Squads will remain in the Rhino and zoom forward. Smoke/Ruins + Dark Shroud offers some nice protection. Come T2 these guys will unleash full dakka.

 

Less bikes but surprisingly more dakka and field presence. What do you think?

[DeadZone]

Try a Nephilim Jetfighter possibly? The second that Flying Monsterous Creatures, heavy psyker use, or strong melee presence in general come into play, you're going to get mauled.

[Frater Cornelius]

Don't you think the Plasma Talons and Prescience of the Librarian will be enough? The only way to accomodate the Nephilim in the list above would be to turning the Tacs into 5 man units with Plasmas in LasPlas Razors, dropping the Conversion Field (not a big loss) and the Combi-Grav. Worth it? Not sure.

 

Melee is probably my last concern between Grim Resolve, Ravenshield and Black Knights. Though FMC are a legitimate concern.

[DeadZone]

Don't you think the Plasma Talons and Prescience of the Librarian will be enough? The only way to accomodate the Nephilim in the list above would be to turning the Tacs into 5 man units with Plasmas in LasPlas Razors, dropping the Conversion Field (not a big loss) and the Combi-Grav. Worth it? Not sure.

 

Melee is probably my last concern between Grim Resolve, Ravenshield and Black Knights. Though FMC are a legitimate concern.

I sort of meant instead of the tactical squads, if you wanted to do an all ravenwing army.

 

Making black knights jink (because they will) they won't be able to overwatch at improved bs and are more likely to overheat. Ravenshield would be the strongest defence, but the black knights are just like any other marine in melee when against a melee purposed unit. There's not too many units with shooting that ignores cover, but in general any shooting against your speeders/bikes and you will want to jink.

[Brother Dark]

Ive been playing rw for many years now through the edutions of 40k, i can honestly say ive never had as much fun in 7e.

Dont get me wrong, previous editions a rw army rocking up to the board would scare the bajesus out of most opponents, but now in the age of riptides, peeps are like, ahhh lil bikes, this is gonna be easy, then the full might of rw manoeuvrability hits tgen, keep shooting at shadows......

Speed is key and rw can onky be matched by the flimsy eldar in that regard. Eldar can only dream of a T5 unit, never mind one that can move 24" per turn and potentially have 2+ ivun......

 

Edit: and yes more bikes is the answer, think scalpel, think razor, think 2nd company

[Interrogator Stobz]

I think Sammael said it best "CHARGE!!!" or words to that effect.

 

I don't play full RW in fun games anymore, the other guy doesn't get to have any.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Brother Stobz - Heh, fun lists are a whole different breed of lists. When I am looking at a basis for a list it is with making games as one-sided as possible in my favour. I do not need public advice for having fun, but when it comes to sharing experiences and bouncing off ideas for hard-hitting lists then I like to hear what you guys have to say ;)

 

@ DeadZone - Not quite true. I rarely jink with obscured RWSS, as they have a 2+ cover save, which is enough to bounce most shots off. When a Speeder takes a glancing hit, it rarely matters. I only jink when the volume is too high and the shots have a chance to explode the Speeders, when being under the effect of Auspexes or when not obscured by anything.

As for Black Knights, in melee-focused armies there is usually little shooting that would make me jink. I will just tank it out with whatever characters I have in the unit and only if the opponent even managed to get through the Void Shield. Now this is different from meta to meta, so it is hard to argue this point, but lists around here are either full on shooting or full on melee, which shooty Eldar and Battle Companies being the most common.

Besides, BK do not have a higher chance of overheating when Jinking. You need to roll a 1 and then a 1 on the re-roll, meaning the chance is always 1/36.

[RayJ]

Jink does not change the rate of overheating. Twin-linked plasma has a 1:36 chance of overheating. Both the initial roll and the reroll must be 1. You cannot reroll a normal miss into overheat