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Blood Angels Tactica - Assault Cannons For Days


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#1
The Unseen

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To keep the weekender thread from being cluttered up with discussions and such, I made this to ask what people thought of the new rules for the IX legion. If anyone hasn't got their hands on them already, heres a link.

https://1d4chan.org/...on:_White_Scars

 

I'm... distinctly underwhelmed. +1 to wound is nothing to feel bad about at all, but its the only benefit we get, and its tied to 3 downsides at once, vehicle restrictions and never going to ground can hurt pretty bad, always having to sweep I have no idea a circumstance when you wouldn't want to sweep, but ok.

 

Hand Flamers are a joke in an all MEQ enviroment, their only barely palpable at 10 pts in regular 40k where low T low save units are more common, but for 15 they aren't ever going to be used. Inferno pistols are still good, but worse than I'm used to because pretty much every threatening vehicle has the option of Armoured Ceramite, which means you essentially have a plasma pistol with half the range, and we all know how good plasma pistols are (sarcasm)

 

Our relic blade equivalent is on praetors and consuls only, and it's a nice one. It's on par with a paragon blade, better vs some things, worse vs others. (Against primarchs or other eternal war characters, its better, but against big MC's with a lot of wounds, the paragon is better with the chance of just instakiling it on a 6, against your usual sargeants and the like, its a little better, but consuls and praetors don't have problems punking them anyway.

 

The defensive rite of war is pretty much awful, your stubborn on your own objectives, you can't be pinned, and enemy units that lose combat with you take a -1 leadership penalty, like a reverse company banner. Units that drop below 50% COUNT AS DESTROYED AND CAN'T SCORE. So, you just made the enemies job of killing your scoring units in an objective game, or claiming kill points twice as easy. The kicker is that the main upside of 5+ FNP for your dudes only kicks in the turn after they have been reduced to less than half strength. Ohh look, the unit that can't claim objectives and you already effectively killed points wise is no 33% tougher. Congrats.

 

The offensive, Day of Revelation, is much better. Except, yet more downsides. You don't get drop pods, you must take at least 2 units of assault marines, which as we all know are pretty over-costed, you must take a deep-striking unit or flyer in a fast attack slot, so a land speeder of some variety, a dreadclaw, or a flyer, you have to give and accept challenges, and you can't take any superheavies except flyers and the as-yet unreleased Sanguinius. Your bonuses are +1 Initiative on the charge, your jump troops come in automatically turn 1, and pick up a 5+ cover save when they drop. Sadly, no deep strike roll mitigation, so your still rolling 2d6 scatter, and even with just 10 guys to a squad, there is going to be a good chance that you'll suffer some mishaps with your 300 pt units. Sigh.

 

So, all in all, not to happy with it. Don't want to whine or anything, and in this setting rules are secondary to fluff and a good time, but it doesn't seem like these rules will help lead to a good time. It's pretty sad that you can make the case to just use the generic FC for an unreleased legion, pick a generic ROW, and it might be better than the BA rules after you include their downsides.

 

 


"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#2
God-Potato of Mankind

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I was so tempted when I read about them initially but the sheer number and strength of the drawbacks compared to the positives is mind boggling. Like do the writes even play this game boggling. Yet you then have WS and DA which both seem solid

#3
The Unseen

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I love my BA, and so far the fluff snippets from FW proper, not BL, seem excellent. But sheesh, it's like the last time anybody at FW looked at BA's rules and overall power level was 5th edition, and wanted to nerf them all the hell.

 

And don't even talk about white scars, apparently they have to be the best legion/chapter in both 30 and 40k.


"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#4
SkimaskMohawk

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Seomething something moritat-handflamer-phase shifter


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#5
Flint13

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^That whole 'infinite wounds OMGBA moritat' deal has already been put down like the rabid animal it was. 


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#6
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Until we get the whole Picture (Special Units and Characters, Updates to LA:CAL, etc), while the BA aren't OMGAMAZING they aren't terrible.

 

All it does really is put a very strong Emphasis on using Jump Pack Marines and getting into CC. But, since we dont have the whole picture, it only looks subpar because of unit costs.

 

And the Vehicle Limitation isnt as big of an issue as you might be making it out to be since Dedicated Transports dont count towards it. It'll be there if you want to run Mech Blood Angels but otherwise? You should be fine.

 

The 2nd RoW Is basically playing Lamenters.


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#7
The Unseen

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Anyone who tried to sully the good name of the IX Legiones by pulling a stunt like that deserves to be dreadsocked. I would however, have loved to run a moritat with an infernus pistol and serpenta.

What was the final verdict on the hand flamer moritat anyway?

 

Edit: And a legion rule that wants you to use, and ROW that requires you to use, a unit that is widely regarded as one of the worst units in the 30k setting is pretty bad. And that's just it, if you want to run the other way of getting into combat with mechanized infantry, your still restricted, at least a little, on what you can bring. There isn;t a good option.

 

Edit 2: The lamenters comment is pretty good, suits them getting consistently kicked in the nuts for no reason. Still doesn't make it good though.


Edited by The Unseen, 06 February 2016 - 09:05 PM.

"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#8
Noserenda

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Ill go with them but no drop pods in the Rite of War makes me sad :(


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#9
Hesh Kadesh

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For anyone wondering, template moritat can only remove wounds from models in range. You can"t graze one model and kill a full unit.
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Resources;

Heresy Era Lords of War; use this to find out the complete collection of available Lords of War for Battles in the Age of Darkness.


#10
Theredknight

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Mate, they still wee all over ec rules..

You get ap2 swords.. Which surprisingly you can use in challenges which you have to take.

Don't want your assault marines to scatter? Then take a nuncio and use a scorpius to boot.
Or a Damocles and push more.

Most people I know already take a flyer (fire raptor mainly) or a speeder for flanking anyway so not much change there.

You can pin units on the turn you arrive I think? That's pretty bad ass. Especially if you pop some h. Flamers in there.

The sword is pretty cool too, ap2 at i4/5, +1 to wound and master crafted, and 1 wound counts as 2? Yes please for 20pts!!!

Honestly try just getting 1 extra run dice, and d3 to sweeping and then forced challenges and a useless row (below 3-3.5k) and then tell me how crap they are..(ec)

Blood angels rules are pretty fluffy imo.
They are assault based (tick)

If you want to play tank based armies or sit about at the back of the battlefield having cups of tea, go and join the death guard/ iron warriors.

I am going to dig out my mix and matched angels and see what can be used, put together a list and kick some ass for the blessed Angel.

We have rules now, I have been waiting for these for ages, pretty much have furious charge army wide (using basic legion rules anyway?) so all the others are a plus.
I also collect ec, and I can tell you now, that these are better than theirs..and ba don't even have specific units yet!!

To me the heresy is about marines kicking the crap out of each other, blood Angels deliver that nicely.
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#11
The Unseen

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It doesn't really matter if "most" people are running a flyer anyway, its still reducing the choices of how you make your army for no real apparent reason. And everyone know EC got boned for their legion rules. But I'm not seeing as +1 to wound being any better really than extra run and sweep rolls when you factor in the other downsides. Not being able to have tacs go to ground on objectives is HUGE, at least to me. I said the sword was cool, its a great option for consul variants who want to be in combat. But if you think the swords are good, go look at the white scars. Best pw in game, bar none.

 

Edit: how many times have people said that every legion had the tools and ability to run the full gamut of choices a legion list can make, except BA and RG, and RG get some of the best rules in the setting to make up for it.


Edited by The Unseen, 06 February 2016 - 09:17 PM.

"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#12
ThatOneMarshal

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I'm a little annoyed that Forgeworld went the Assualt marine rout to the BA's rules. We aren't the assualt marine legion the same way that the Night Lords are the Raptor legion. Reminds me a bit too much of Matt Ward.

 

They aren't White Scars good, but they arent exactly bad either. 

 

Was hoping more for an army with an emphasis for speed. Oh well.

 

Also you guys stole the Talent For Murder.


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Terran_zps971683eb.pngETL_2014_Banner_V2_03A_Custos_Fidei.jpg  

 

 
 


#13
Flint13

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Well... we borrowed the 5th ed BA codex pretty often with the 8th's less than stellar representation in the CSM codex, back before the Heresy rules even existed.

 

I guess its fair that the IX calls the favor in with borrowing Talent for Murder. 


Edited by Flint13, 06 February 2016 - 09:21 PM.

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#14
Theredknight

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Yes ec are still weak, il see how their row plays out though until I comment on it. plus not here..
I think they are trying to make ba an 'assault and smash' based legion.

On average your going to take3/4 infantry squads right? (More if you want to capitalise on it) so you have minimum 4/5 vehicles, it really depends what you want to go with. How is it limiting your choices? (A fair few legions have this thing already, fist I think to name one?)

I agree, there are better things out there, but that's the same from every legion. (Salamanders..ugh) (lucid blade... *winks at hesh*)

Sweep itself is VERY situational. I think I got to roll my extra d3 about 4 times in 2 years. So that rule is nigh useless imo. (There's a fair few stubborn / fearless etc I have found)
The extra dice to run is cute, but +1 to wound and the other bonuses outweigh this massively. Bop a rad grenade In there your wounding on 2s for starters.

It's way to early to talk practical with them yet, I don't have the book in front of me to quote, but I very much look forward to getting it. And finally releasing my Angels into the world of 30k.

I think what ba got was a nudge toward cc based, that reflects on their rule sets. A lot of hh games are kill points and annihilating each other, so I wouldn't want those tacs poncing about my back lines, they'd be armed with extra cc weapons and getting into the fray.

It says you can't take drop pods? What about kharbydis? It would make a nice support unit to bump up with the assault marines? It's still classed as heavy support.

Sangy will be beautiful when he comes out, and I don't mind waiting for that.

So please don't only see the negatives, there are also positives which can, and will be exploited to their maximum potential!

#15
The Unseen

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Sure, I'm already got the gears turning as to how to make the assault oriented ROW work, it's just really sad and frustrating that they seem to have gotten so little attention, especially compared to the other 2 legions they came with. I'm still looking forward to using them, since I'm not planning on playing 30k with super hardcore people, it isn't what 30k is about. Sanguinius I am eagerly awaiting as well, got no problems there, sculpting takes time, and FW decides what order to do things.

 

I would say to my knowledge, the only legions with worse rules, when only looking at base rules and legion rites, not specialist units, or characters, are EC, and non-traitor WE. DG is a bit iffy, but I think their weapon choices definitely give them the edge here. Traitor WE getting rage at the start, plus free chainaxes is great, and with the new rite of war giving kakophni heavy 2, EC are going to rock (literally and figuratively, hehe.)


"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#16
depthcharge12

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TL;DR

Assault cannons on errythang.
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http://www.bolterand...rus-plog-horus/


Scars of Rangdan, Dark Angels Legion:

http://www.bolterand...79#entry4575179

#17
rendingon1+

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^That whole 'infinite wounds OMGBA moritat' deal has already been put down like the rabid animal it was. 

Where?



#18
Theredknight

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Sure, one had to need actual tactics to win, rather than super star sabre swords which chop armies apart in a swing etc out of the 3, that appears to be the blood Angels :-)

It will wrk out, as we try new things, don't forget that a lot of the meta has changed, I have no idea what the hells going on or who's got what until I play them, so it's not just like a new legion, they are all sort of like that, if that makes sense.

Just looking at a few things, looks like Baal preds are pretty much in, and you can take in a squadron (3 preds in a sqn) that could be an interesting support unit...

Also we still have the photonic blade, which is pretty darn swish imo.

#19
helterskelter

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^That whole 'infinite wounds OMGBA moritat' deal has already been put down like the rabid animal it was.

Where?

Alan is faq'ing it on Monday. Really its not such a problem, unless you point them at a harm able primarch.
Not really a rabid animal either. Touch exaggerated since the teardrops only allow for so much
gallery_48988_10980_7442.png

My referal code for eternal crusade:EC-MHXKY9RLYIIEH

#20
rendingon1+

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Hm. Is he faq'ing inferno moritat too or just template moritat?



#21
helterskelter

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Don't see a problem with the inferno one. Those 1's with a single shot weapon. Granted could wipe a squad. But still. Think his FAQ is largely due to hand flamer
gallery_48988_10980_7442.png

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#22
Theredknight

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Holy crap, just looking, anything with a heavy flamer can take an assault cannon for 5pts?!

Excitement picks up already!!

Javelins with cyclone missiles and an assault cannons etc

A heavy support squad..all armed with assault cannons (and apothecary for a failure)

#23
Slips

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The inferno pistol is a SIX INCH RANGED pistol.

 

If a Moritat gets that close, you kinda deserve it.

 

Especially that now Relics require player consent to use.


Edited by Slipstreams, 06 February 2016 - 11:06 PM.

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#24
rendingon1+

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Okay, how about chainfiring superheavy in the rear(AV12) with infernos? armoured ceramite or not it's still a lot of S8 Ap1 which means a couple of pens at least.



#25
God-Potato of Mankind

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The whole swapping heavy flamers for ACs seems like a really big one. 

 

Like...so many things can get HFs. You could be swimming in ACs. 

 

Spartan? 2 ACs

Deredeo boobguns? 2 ACs

Contemptor? Underslung ACs

Any tank pintle? AC (Rhino's with ACs!)

Terminators? 2x ACs per 10

Jetbikes? All ACS (I think - HB stock can be swapped for flamers? or just Salamanders?)

 

And my favourite - Predator with TL AC and 2x AC sponsons and AC pintle mount. Five assault cannon barrels on a predator :D


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