[HH1.0] Blood Angels Tactica - Assault Cannons For Days

[Charlo]

I'm also afraid that the Siege Breaker doesn't give the Melta Vets Tank Hunter, he only confers it to his own attacks and attached Heavy Weapon shooting attacks.

 

It's an oddly specific written rule of his.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Still good enough though for sure. 

[Indefragable]

I'm also afraid that the Siege Breaker doesn't give the Melta Vets Tank Hunter, he only confers it to his own attacks and attached Heavy Weapon shooting attacks.

 

It's an oddly specific written rule of his.

 

Good point.

 

Still works on Angel's Tears' Assault Cannons though.... :)

[Charlo]

 

I'm also afraid that the Siege Breaker doesn't give the Melta Vets Tank Hunter, he only confers it to his own attacks and attached Heavy Weapon shooting attacks.

 

It's an oddly specific written rule of his.

 

Good point.

 

Still works on Angel's Tears' Assault Cannons though....

 

NOW... That is interesting... Does it? They become assault weapons when you move, as per the suspensor web rules...

[Indefragable]

 

 

I'm also afraid that the Siege Breaker doesn't give the Melta Vets Tank Hunter, he only confers it to his own attacks and attached Heavy Weapon shooting attacks.

 

It's an oddly specific written rule of his.

 

Good point.

 

Still works on Angel's Tears' Assault Cannons though....

 

NOW... That is interesting... Does it? They become assault weapons when you move, as per the suspensor web rules...

 

 

Will need an official FAQ to fend off That Guy one way or another.

 

From the Red Books:

Hidden Content

A heavy weapon with a suspensor web effectively allows the firer to treat the weapon as having the type Assault rather than Heavy (meaning that they can move and fire at full WS, etc) when firing in the Shooting phase at targets at up to half the weapon's usual maximum range. This has no other affect, such as on Snap Shots when charged, etc.

 

Example: A heavy bolter with a suspensor web which is usually a Range 36", Heavy 3 weapon, can instead be used as if it were  Range 18", Assault 3 weapon if the player wishes in their Shooting phase.

 

so...one could argue that an Assault Cannon is a Heavy Weapon and thus would be modified no matter what by a Siege Breaker since the wargear itself could modify the way it fires: treating it "as if it were Range x Assault y". The operative phrase there is "used as if it were" as opposed to "change type to Assault x when within half range

 

Yea re-reading it it flats out says "as having the type Assault" so it seems clear that the intention is to make the AC a (half range) Assault weapon that loses it's Heavy type altogether. That is normally a great thing, but actually prevents the rules interactions with a Siege Breaker for that reason.

 

So no, that idea does not work. (Ratfarts).

[Elzender]

As I understand it, you can decide to use either profile every time you shoot, so you could use the siege breaker ability on them if you use the heavy profile, but then again using it after moving/deepstriking is probably not very useful due to snapshooting. If you manage to have them survive for a turn while standing still after deepstriking, then I guess some tanks are going to have a very bad day, but it a pretty difficult situation to pull off, and probably a suicide melta squad would be a simpler way to achieve it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You sure can choose, but as elzender pointed out, you snap shoot as soon as you move. Makes the assault cannons pretty restricted in range on the angels tears, and a huge investment in points to make a combo work properly.

[Theredknight]

You’re joking right? Sangy and spear saved many a game at thrones.

95% of the time you will get the charge and on a squad of marines he would mash 8/9 per turn.

 

The best thing about his hammer of wrath is the sequence as I read it. You declare charge and roll, if successful move models into combat where possible. You will declare a challenge. If accepted (say by a praetor) he will then suffer a str10 ap2 hit. Fail an invulnerable save and he’s dead straight off.

 

I know there are other units my point is you are steered towards it and the better build will always be with using JP units. As it goes well with legion rules and units. Of course you can make good lists from others.

 

Haha 2 Spartans vs a mastadon. One saying for you RULE OF COOL!!

Mastadons look cool and I would like one, it’s just working out what best goes in it. Multiple smaller units seem to be the better best as opposed to a massive blob. Giving the option to charge different units or springboard somewhere else.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You actually don't want to challenge with sang. His biggest strength is that he can break and sweep any non-fearless/stubborn unit via his wound output and his combat res bonus. Killing that character at I10 means you don't get to attack with his actual weapon and you lose another ~5 wounds worth of combat res.

 

And Sang and Day of Revelation are what make jump packs better, not the inherent blood angels legion rules.

[Theredknight]

You actually don't want to challenge with sang. His biggest strength is that he can break and sweep any non-fearless/stubborn unit via his wound output and his combat res bonus. Killing that character at I10 means you don't get to attack with his actual weapon and you lose another ~5 wounds worth of combat res.

 

And Sang and Day of Revelation are what make jump packs better, not the inherent blood angels legion rules.

That’s true, it’s just morale crushing when you do it to a 250pt model on one dice roll!

I usually stick him in a squad of 15 JP with FNP but yes. When I don’t challenge he slew at least 8. Plus sometimes killing a marine with a grenade throw or ‘Sanguinius poos’

[Indefragable]

<takes Encarmine Blade off Sanguinius, puts Spear of Telesto on>

 

So.....package Sangy with another challenge-cheeser?

 

Or just have a Sgt eat a challenge so Sangy can wipe the squad (nearly) on his own?

 

And @SkimaskMohawk you're saying that the Encarmine Blade is actually better in most situations for Sangy?

 

<takes Spear of Telesto off, puts Spear back on>

[SkimaskMohawk]

For challenges; you want the sergeant to do the challenging/accepting challenges so the hammer of wrath doesn't spoil it or he doesn't get locked down by a tank character.

 

For weapon choice, I was pretty clear that the spear is better. The sword gives 1 more wound on average against meq, but kills far less as soon as you're dealing with multi-wound or fnp or vehicles. And then to top it off, even against meq the spear still generates enough damage that combined with his combat res modifier, you can break and sweep any unit short of a 10 man fists terminator squad with stormshields and fists. And they're still testing on ld 6. Any other unit that isn't fearless or stubborn will die or break easily. Always go spear.

[Theredknight]

Plus that spear throw can turn a game. I took the last hull point off a termite to win it.

In another game it speared a centurion. Also makes for really cool thematics lol

[Charlo]

Plus that spear throw can turn a game. I took the last hull point off a termite to win it.

In another game it speared a centurion. Also makes for really cool thematics lol

That's pretty cool.

 

One last ditch attack is pretty gnarly!

[Theredknight]

 

Plus that spear throw can turn a game. I took the last hull point off a termite to win it.

In another game it speared a centurion. Also makes for really cool thematics lol

That's pretty cool.

 

One last ditch attack is pretty gnarly!

Yeah it was those moments of spite that made it really cool.

The pistol I’d already shot and blown 2 holes into a dread claw by then

[james71989]

The spear relies on getting the charge off. I still have found i my games that the sword is more reliable. A ws9 primarch striking 9-10 times with str7 ap2 shred is nothing to take lightly. Game i played the spear in he murdered a sicaran ventnor easily, but died horribly when he got charged and was only str6

[SkimaskMohawk]

Let's ask some questions.

 

How are you not getting the charge off initially? He deepstrikes with no scatter, moves 12" and reroll his charge. You can absolutely pick your target to charge. You also might not want to charge him in where he's appt to be counter charged by something deadly.

 

The second question, is how much does strength 7 matter? Most of the units with higher toughness values are also vulnerable to instant death, with only Scoria, the Tribune, Primarchs and Daemon Lord/Khabanda being things that have both. Shred helps the math, but in the vast majority of cases, the spear will either instant death through the wounds of the higher toughness or still wound on a 2+.

 

So the third question. What charged sang and killed him where his strength 7 shred would have made a difference compared to strength 6 instant death? Iron arm enhanced powerfist cataphractii? That's the only thing I can think of that's high enough toughness but still 1 wound each. Or you just rolled poorly vs a primarch or other aforementioned character. There's really not much out there thats both very hard to wound, and in sufficient quantity that it kills him in return.

 

And with all that in mind, it's again about averages. How many units does the sword clearly excel against compared to the spear? Single wound/eternal warrior models between toughness 5-8 or primarch duels. Where does the spear excel over the sword? Multi wound models, vehicles, and feel no pain protected units. Which categories turn up more in the game?

[james71989]

It wasnt a matter of getting the charge off initially. It was wiping the unit and having to stand there a turn in the open, allowing the nearby squad to get the charge off

[SkimaskMohawk]

Right, I get that. My question is what charged you that the strength 6 and instant death vs strength 7 and shred had such a disparity.

[Theredknight]

What are you charging into? I had sangy annihilate every unit he charged.

With exception to red butchers, that took a couple of turns to whittle down. But he was fighting them and a command squad (distraction to hold them off objective) and PA marine unit get slaughtered.

You care also causing fear. Are you charging him on his own into 20 fearless blobs?

Unless they are fearless he will slay.

I don’t know how you can NOT get the charge off, unless you are trying to always get him at 12”. You need to use him better and get him into position, just like every other unit

[SkimaskMohawk]

Fear rarely matters for sang as he's ws 9. Most things naturally hits him on 5s.

[Theredknight]

Ah but to his accompanying squad, it will

[m0nolith]

Anyone else use or face Crimson Paladins in actual games?

How did they do?

[Theredknight]

I haven’t got them out of the box yet, I think they will be great against squishy units and those at the backfield. I think they are only a crappy ws4, which is a bit underwhelming tbh.

The benefit of them I can see is that they get DS for freew

[SkimaskMohawk]

The real problem with the paladins is that they're basically old school justaerin. But worse. The positives of the old justaerin were ws 5 and stubborn. The paladins get stubborn and the feel no pain comparatively, but have ws 4, almost no shooting, and a size of 3-5. And get to pay 20 ppm for 2 fists. And they don't score...

 

5 cataphractii with fists is 200 compared to the 280 of 5 paladins with 2 fists. Other than day of revelation, there's no reason ever to take paladins over normal terminators. Their point costs are just that bad.