[HH1.0] Blood Angels Tactica - Assault Cannons For Days

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Yeah I’m guessing the Primus couldn’t DS with them?

 

 

 

Nope, he can't. That's why four plus the Medicae in an assault vehicle would be the way to go. At least it's still somehow reasonable in terms of cost vs. potential achievements, but like you mentioned yourself, they're utterly sub-par compared to other Legions special terminators, their biggest letdown IMHO being their lack of scoring. Personally, I'd swap the Primus Medicae for a Chaplain or Herald though ... but they're still underwhelming.

[m0nolith]

Yeah I’m guessing the Primus couldn’t DS with them?

Sounds like an expensive unit at around 600 points though compared to a lot out there. The damage output would be poor and it’s a very weak Death Star.

You could only take 4 and the Primus in a Phobos too.

Even if you deep struck them, those pathetic AP3 blades just don’t cut it. Great they can maybe scratch a back of a rhino with their sunder and rending though

 

They have no use whatsoever that I can see, they can’t capture objectives and they can’t deal with anything substantial as they will get walked over.

5 basic bitch terminators with power fists would demolish them because they would only be hitting on 4s anyway due to their useless WS. (Phoenix guard had this problem, although still terrible)

No they cant, unless you run them with a Warmonger or someone that allocates DS to the unit, which is what I plan doing.

And I agree on the blades, the AP3 is a little weak, that's why in my original post I said that I'm giving all of them power axes. It's a little tough converting them because the hand with the blades comes attached to the arm itself, but its Heresy, you got to work sometimes for your gear   

There's a picture of one on page 43 of this thread. 

 

A tooled up Warmonger, Cataphractii Primus Medicae and 5 Paladins costs a total of 540 points (400 total without the Warmonger). For that I get two blades of Perdition, one thunder hammer and four power axes. Thats pretty good for the points, especially given their survivability. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by m0nolith

[Indefragable]

As I've been (slooooooooooowly) converting/building my Dawnbreakers I've always thought of running 2x10w/ BoP Sgt and 7x Spears + 2x blade cases and an Apoth in each squad.

 

Now I'm thinking it may be better to go 1x10 w/ Apoth + 2x5, idea being to get more BoP's into action and getter better MSU usage out of Sangy's re-rolls.

[Cris R]

I'm enjoying the back and forth about the merits of Crimson Paladins and ways to make them a little more effective in the game. My question is: what load out would make them effective for Zone Mortalis? My BA ZM list uses other types of Terminator units since I get more milage out of those point investments. But I wanted to throw the question out there to see if anyone has used them in ZM and what load outs work best for them.

[m0nolith]

I'm enjoying the back and forth about the merits of Crimson Paladins and ways to make them a little more effective in the game. My question is: what load out would make them effective for Zone Mortalis? My BA ZM list uses other types of Terminator units since I get more milage out of those point investments. But I wanted to throw the question out there to see if anyone has used them in ZM and what load outs work best for them.

Look at the previous page. I discussed what loadout I think works for them there.

[The Scorpion]

Is there any actual use for crimson paladins? Sure they look cool but the rules bite, I can’t bring myself to spend points on ap3 weapons and ws4.

What’s the advantage and who can you put with them to deep strike if there was any point in doing that?

 

To be fair, I don't see a reason to use Crimson Paladins when the color scheme of their vanilla Tartaros is so damn sweet (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/d/d4/BA_Legionary_Tartaros_Termi.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/145?cb=20170612165904), and their forge world Praetor can be used as a Warmonger with perdition blade to deepstrike them. Not to mention the new power axe release happens to synergize with "encarmine fury".

[Cris R]

 

 

Is there any actual use for crimson paladins? Sure they look cool but the rules bite, I can’t bring myself to spend points on ap3 weapons and ws4.

What’s the advantage and who can you put with them to deep strike if there was any point in doing that?

To be fair, I don't see a reason to use Crimson Paladins when the color scheme of their vanilla Tartaros is so damn sweet (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/d/d4/BA_Legionary_Tartaros_Termi.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/145?cb=20170612165904), and their forge world Praetor can be used as a Warmonger with perdition blade to deepstrike them. Not to mention the new power axe release happens to synergize with "encarmine fury".

That idea is close to the thinking behind one of my Blood Angels ZM list. I run ZM Assault Force with the BA Tartaros Praetor as a Delegatus and use the RoW to deep strike my Tartaros unit that’s rocking three power axes and two chainfists. Another variation is using them as a Command Squad for the Delegatus but you can’t use the Deep Strike rule there.

 

I hadn’t thought about the Warmonger/Tartaros combo for a ZM list even though I use that concept for one of my 2.5k/3k Blood Angels lists. Interesting concept worth exploring.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Cris R

[Cris R]

Another question for this thread: is there any value in taking a unit of Angel's Tears wielding heavy flamers for a Zone Mortalis list? Or is it better to equip them with their grenade launchers or assault cannons? I've got a Breacher Squad with a Nuncio Vox, so I'm not as worried about Deep Striking mishaps.

[Darkwrath121]

Another question for this thread: is there any value in taking a unit of Angel's Tears wielding heavy flamers for a Zone Mortalis list? Or is it better to equip them with their grenade launchers or assault cannons? I've got a Breacher Squad with a Nuncio Vox, so I'm not as worried about Deep Striking mishaps.

Angel's Tears can't deepstrike in Zone Mortalis, as they're jump infantry, and only teleporting/materialising units may deepstrike.

[Cris R]

Thanks for the clarification, any answers to my question?

[Slips]

Depends on how the ZM tables youre playing on are likely to be set up! It might only be possible for 2-3 of them to be able to stand side by side and be able to shoot their templates without it overlapping a model within the unit if its mainly hallways and corridors. If thats the case, then youre better off having only a few Flamers and the rest being Assault Cannons or grenade launchers so that you can make the most out of getting everyone to shoot.

[m0nolith]

Thanks for the clarification, any answers to my question?

Honestly, id take the volkites they come standard with.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Is the Orbital Assault Rite of War good with Blood Angels or should I pick a different rite?

[Gorgoff]

Is the Orbital Assault Rite of War good with Blood Angels or should I pick a different rite?

Sure, why not?

[The Scorpion]

Is the Orbital Assault Rite of War good with Blood Angels or should I pick a different rite?

 

Orbital Assault might be good for the IXth. Unlike the Emperor's Children and World Eaters, their bonuses trigger even when they get charged, so having to wait a turn before charging doesn't suck that much. It's not bad. That being said, it's not as "good" as for, say... the Ultramarines and Sons of Horus.

 

The elephant in the room is obviously "Day of Revelation": that rite is waaay too good (and granted, therefore kinda boring). It allows you to do the same kind of alpha strike, but with Assault Squads instead of 10-man tacs in drop pods.

To make matters worse, even other vanilla RoWs offer the sons of the angel funnier gimmicks. "Angel's Wrath" gives Hit & Run to jump units, making Sanguinius and the Dawnbreakers able to charge nearly every turn.

 

Is Orbital Assault bad? No. But is good? I don't think it is either.

[Cris R]

Quick question: is there any reason to have the Dawnbreaker Champion wield a Blade of Perdition? I've got 15 of these guys to paint and figure I'd model one with a spare Blade from one of my Crimson Paladins sets to keep the project fresh and interesting. That said, I'm not sure if there's a reason to run it in a game, so wanted to get thoughts here. Thanks!

Edited March 29, 2021 by Cris R

[Charlo]

Quick question: is there any reason to have the Dawnbreaker Champion wield a Blade of Perdition? I've got 15 of these guys to paint and figure I'd model one with a spare Blade from one of my Crimson Paladins sets to keep the project fresh and interesting. That said, I'm not sure if there's a reason to run it in a game, so wanted to get thoughts here. Thanks!

 

If you regularly fight multi-wound models then sure!

[Cris R]

I just kit bashed a Jump Pack Artificer Armored model with a Blade and a Thunder Hammer that I will use as a Legion Champion or second Praetor designed specifically for challenges in my DoR list. What are the strengths and weaknesses of pairing the Hammer with a Blade of Perdition instead of a Paragon Blade for this purpose? I know losing an extra attack is one of the main trade-offs between both options, but I want to hear what others' experiences have been using these two set ups for challenges. My main Praetor has Artificer Armor, a Jump Pack, the Blade of Perdition, and a Combi-Volkite Bolter that I run with 10 Dawnbreakers, one with a Blade of Perdition as well. Thanks!

Edited May 8, 2021 by Cris R

[Indefragable]

I just kit bashed a Jump Pack Artificer Armored model with a Blade and a Thunder Hammer that I will use as a Legion Champion or second Praetor designed specifically for challenges in my DoR list. What are the strengths and weaknesses of pairing the Hammer with a Blade of Perdition instead of a Paragon Blade for this purpose? I know losing an extra attack is one of the main trade-offs between both options, but I want to hear what others' experiences have been using these two set ups for challenges. My main Praetor has Artificer Armor, a Jump Pack, the Blade of Perdition, and a Combi-Volkite Bolter that I run with 10 Dawnbreakers, one with a Blade of Perdition as well. Thanks!

 

Personally, I think Blade of Perdition (BoP) and Thunder Hammer (TH) are a terrible combo. 

 

Long version: 

Hidden Content

So challenges in HH fall into 5 categories:

 

1. Go first with AP2

2. Go for resilience and swing last with a thunder hammer

3. Other

4. Don't even bother

5. Sigusmund

 

#1 is best exemplified by an Emperor's Children Praetor/Champion with I7 on the Charge and a Paragon Blade. Unless you're a Primarch, you're probably going to lose that unless you're...

 

#2 is best exemplified by the Salamanders Praetor with Cataphractii Terminator Armor, Drakenscale Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, and the relic that gives you Eternal Warrior. Literally riding out #1 with 2+/3++/EW (so you don't die to Instant Death) and then fighting back with a TH that will even ID your foe in return or Concuss him so that his Initiative advantage is now moot for the next turn. 

 

#3 is the odd setup here there that fits into neither of the above, but has its own little advantages. Best exemplified by Space Wolves and Death Guard which each get weapons that are AP2 at -1 Initiative (Great Frost Blades for SW and Power Scythes for DG, if I recall). They essentially lose to #1 but have a real chance of beating #2, but have all the same weaknesses as #1 when facing #2. Essentially, the biggest advantage to being a #3 is that you can typically put all your regular Sgts here so your Sgts will own all other Sgts, yet your IC's may lose against other IC's in groups #1 and #2 above. 

Also Hol Beloth of the Word Bearers who can just hand-waive away the first failed wound of the game (including Instant Death). The definition of a weird one-off ability that messes up the formula of challenges (in a good way from a game design/variety standpoint). 

 

#4 is self explanatory: don't bother, save the points, invest in even more even bigger guns, et al. 

 

#5: there are some characters (Sigismund, Russ, Horus, maybe Sevatar, maybe some others, maybe even the aforementioned Salamanders Praetor [he really is that good]) that you just don't even bother fighting unless you have a similar Tier dude. 

 

Now that that's out of the way, Blood Angels in 30k fall fairly decisively into group #1. We have access to one of the best weapons in the game with the Blade of Perdition, and even using "only" a Paragon Blade pairs very well with Encarmine Fury. We are at our best when we strike hard, strike fast, and strike first. Hence why I put us firmly in group #1.

 

That is also our weakness, since we can easily be countered by masters of #2 or other #1 dudes that go even faster. See Emperor's Children and Night Lords in some setups. Against EC/NL types our only hope is to hope to ride out their attacks or feed sacrifice challenge eaters. 

 

Against #2 types we have to hope to hit them early, hard, and often, because otherwise even a single power fist/thunder hammer/solarite gauntlet hit that makes it through our 4++ Iron Halos or 5++ Refractor Fields is all she wrote. That's where the Blade of Perdition REALLY shines. 

 

Though the BoP is "only" wounding on 3+ in most cases (S: User + Encarmine Fury) the wording in Book 8: Malevolence (and confirmed by Devs) specifically states that successful To Wound rolls using it cause the enemy model to have to roll twice for each wound. So we're literally getting 2 for the price of 1. Even against 1W models, they have double the chance of a wound going through. So that big scary Salamanders Praetor with 2+/3++/EW? A Blade of Perdition is probably the best chance anyone who's not a Primarch has against killing him, given that he will have to roll twice against each unsaved wound. We may actually have a shot of killing him in a single turn. 

 

Now where you would want to use a Paragon Blade instead is when you start fighting Mechanicum or Xenos or other stuff and you want S+1 (since Encarmine Fury does not effect thresholds) and/or a chance to Instant Death something. Pairing a PB with a TH lets you (hopefully survive to) swing with the TH in the first round of combat, dropping the enemy MC to I1 so that the 2nd round (if it survives) you can then strike first with your PB again. And PB + TH gives you +1A (for a steep points cost) which is always helpful. It also can look BOSS. 

 

But against other T4 models in a challenge, the extra 50% of causing unsaved wounds from a BoP just blows away the 16% of Instant Death with a PB. Thunder hammers are never bad, but BA don't have any advantages or edges to using them, just like we don't have any advantages to shooting most weapons, so it's not bad it just makes us at a disadvantage when facing other dudes who do have an advantage with them (group #2 above). 

 

 

TL;DR: Blade of Perdition for challenges, hands down. Paragon blade+Thunder hammer for rule of cool and fighting MC's/big scary (non-Primarch) stuff or vehicles. 

 

Disclaimer: the above is entirely based on crunch. Usual disclaimers about fluff, Rule of Cool, and Your Dudes apply. 

 

Fun Tip: the BoP has Master-Crafting built-in, so on your Praetor put MC on your melta bombs

[Cris R]

 

I just kit bashed a Jump Pack Artificer Armored model with a Blade and a Thunder Hammer that I will use as a Legion Champion or second Praetor designed specifically for challenges in my DoR list. What are the strengths and weaknesses of pairing the Hammer with a Blade of Perdition instead of a Paragon Blade for this purpose? I know losing an extra attack is one of the main trade-offs between both options, but I want to hear what others' experiences have been using these two set ups for challenges. My main Praetor has Artificer Armor, a Jump Pack, the Blade of Perdition, and a Combi-Volkite Bolter that I run with 10 Dawnbreakers, one with a Blade of Perdition as well. Thanks!

 

Personally, I think Blade of Perdition (BoP) and Thunder Hammer (TH) are a terrible combo. 

 

Long version: 

Hidden Content

So challenges in HH fall into 5 categories:

 

1. Go first with AP2

2. Go for resilience and swing last with a thunder hammer

3. Other

4. Don't even bother

5. Sigusmund

 

#1 is best exemplified by an Emperor's Children Praetor/Champion with I7 on the Charge and a Paragon Blade. Unless you're a Primarch, you're probably going to lose that unless you're...

 

#2 is best exemplified by the Salamanders Praetor with Cataphractii Terminator Armor, Drakenscale Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, and the relic that gives you Eternal Warrior. Literally riding out #1 with 2+/3++/EW (so you don't die to Instant Death) and then fighting back with a TH that will even ID your foe in return or Concuss him so that his Initiative advantage is now moot for the next turn. 

 

#3 is the odd setup here there that fits into neither of the above, but has its own little advantages. Best exemplified by Space Wolves and Death Guard which each get weapons that are AP2 at -1 Initiative (Great Frost Blades for SW and Power Scythes for DG, if I recall). They essentially lose to #1 but have a real chance of beating #2, but have all the same weaknesses as #1 when facing #2. Essentially, the biggest advantage to being a #3 is that you can typically put all your regular Sgts here so your Sgts will own all other Sgts, yet your IC's may lose against other IC's in groups #1 and #2 above. 

Also Hol Beloth of the Word Bearers who can just hand-waive away the first failed wound of the game (including Instant Death). The definition of a weird one-off ability that messes up the formula of challenges (in a good way from a game design/variety standpoint). 

 

#4 is self explanatory: don't bother, save the points, invest in even more even bigger guns, et al. 

 

#5: there are some characters (Sigismund, Russ, Horus, maybe Sevatar, maybe some others, maybe even the aforementioned Salamanders Praetor [he really is that good]) that you just don't even bother fighting unless you have a similar Tier dude. 

 

Now that that's out of the way, Blood Angels in 30k fall fairly decisively into group #1. We have access to one of the best weapons in the game with the Blade of Perdition, and even using "only" a Paragon Blade pairs very well with Encarmine Fury. We are at our best when we strike hard, strike fast, and strike first. Hence why I put us firmly in group #1.

 

That is also our weakness, since we can easily be countered by masters of #2 or other #1 dudes that go even faster. See Emperor's Children and Night Lords in some setups. Against EC/NL types our only hope is to hope to ride out their attacks or feed sacrifice challenge eaters. 

 

Against #2 types we have to hope to hit them early, hard, and often, because otherwise even a single power fist/thunder hammer/solarite gauntlet hit that makes it through our 4++ Iron Halos or 5++ Refractor Fields is all she wrote. That's where the Blade of Perdition REALLY shines. 

 

Though the BoP is "only" wounding on 3+ in most cases (S: User + Encarmine Fury) the wording in Book 8: Malevolence (and confirmed by Devs) specifically states that successful To Wound rolls using it cause the enemy model to have to roll twice for each wound. So we're literally getting 2 for the price of 1. Even against 1W models, they have double the chance of a wound going through. So that big scary Salamanders Praetor with 2+/3++/EW? A Blade of Perdition is probably the best chance anyone who's not a Primarch has against killing him, given that he will have to roll twice against each unsaved wound. We may actually have a shot of killing him in a single turn. 

 

Now where you would want to use a Paragon Blade instead is when you start fighting Mechanicum or Xenos or other stuff and you want S+1 (since Encarmine Fury does not effect thresholds) and/or a chance to Instant Death something. Pairing a PB with a TH lets you (hopefully survive to) swing with the TH in the first round of combat, dropping the enemy MC to I1 so that the 2nd round (if it survives) you can then strike first with your PB again. And PB + TH gives you +1A (for a steep points cost) which is always helpful. It also can look BOSS. 

 

But against other T4 models in a challenge, the extra 50% of causing unsaved wounds from a BoP just blows away the 16% of Instant Death with a PB. Thunder hammers are never bad, but BA don't have any advantages or edges to using them, just like we don't have any advantages to shooting most weapons, so it's not bad it just makes us at a disadvantage when facing other dudes who do have an advantage with them (group #2 above). 

 

 

TL;DR: Blade of Perdition for challenges, hands down. Paragon blade+Thunder hammer for rule of cool and fighting MC's/big scary (non-Primarch) stuff or vehicles. 

 

Disclaimer: the above is entirely based on crunch. Usual disclaimers about fluff, Rule of Cool, and Your Dudes apply. 

 

Fun Tip: the BoP has Master-Crafting built-in, so on your Praetor put MC on your melta bombs

 

 

Thank you, this is super helpful. If it's the case the BoP will do better in challenges, I'll just use the Praetor and Dawnbreakers as the challenge IC/unit since they're rocking two BoP and use the new model as a MC/vehicle hunter. The kitbashed model does look sick with the dual weapons, so I'm glad he has a reason to pop up on the table. And thank you for the MC tip. I run my BoP armed Delegatus or Praetors with MC Combi-Volkite Bolters but I hadn't thought about putting the MC on melta bombs, so I have a new trick up my sleeve.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just going to point it out that initiative at ap 2 basically sucks on most characters for duelling. You almost always want a power fist, chain fist if you have the option for it so you can handle vehicles. Thunder hammers are largely not a good investment as they never do anything for their 5 extra points. Either you kill the character in the first round, or kill the monster in the second round. The stuff is still going to get their attacks in no matter what. Save some points, go with a power fist over the paragon or thunder hammer.

 

Even with 7 attacks and master crafted and blood angels bonus you average 3.32 saves, of which 1.66 make it through. You only get an instant death proc during your second round of combat, by which you kill the opposing praetor already. A powerfist converts that 1.66 into a dead model.

 

A blade of perdition will also do more single target damage than a paragon blade at 4.62 saves, but still leaves the target marine praetor alive.

 

And honestly, dawnbreakers are a fantastic anti-monster unit, you don't really need a character for that job if you're bringing them.

[Cris R]

SkimaskMohawk and Indefragable, one thing I wanted to follow up on: how does DoR change the calculations to use the Blade of Perdition and Paragon Blade with or without the Thunder Hammer or Power Fist?

[SkimaskMohawk]

It doesn't.

 

Day of revelation gives you bonus initiative on the charge; we know that even charging with the maximum number of attacks and master crafted only averages 1.66 wounds through to another praetor when using a paragon blade and 2.3 when using a blade of perdition. It'll basically mean you have a chance of high rolling them before they get to swing, but its still less reliable than just a power fist.

[Indefragable]

SkimaskMohawk and Indefragable, one thing I wanted to follow up on: how does DoR change the calculations to use the Blade of Perdition and Paragon Blade with or without the Thunder Hammer or Power Fist?

 

The +1I from Day of Revelation does nothing for thunder hammers/power fists/chainfists/power axes, so there's that. Some (like @Skimask I'm sure) would argue they are still the best choice since you only need one failed invuln on the enemy for them to be worth it. 

 

The +1I for BoP or PB, it doesn't really change the Pro's/Cons of their comparison; it simply means you get to go slightly faster (and will really only matter against other I5 characters who are NOT using the above TH/PF/CF. Again, I would say BoP is still the better pick 85% of the time. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well my argument is based on the mathematical average results to expect from the weapons. A powerfist will kill a praetor in the first round, even without a second specialist weapon or master crafted or having charged. A paragon blade or blade of perdition won't, even with charge, master craft and second weapon bonus. That's just the math.

 

Then you look at the point values. A paragon blade is 25, a blade of perdition is 20, and a powerfist is 20. It's the cheapest, most consistent and most versatile of the options. It also gets discounted in terminator armour, something thats auto take if running footslogging, dropping its cost to 5 points.