Epic scale returns, but in a new scale.

[Xwingt65]

So Atia reported from one of the seminars, that Epic, when it returns, won't be in 6mm but in a new scale. So as to not derail the HH weekender thread, let's discuss it here.

 

I think it is a good move. GW can't be a slave to the past, and the tiny active community.

 

If they raise the scale to say 10mm, the detail of the models will be out of this world.

[Noserenda]

Im not a fan, for three reasons:

1. Obviously my existing Huge Epic collection and terrain will be useless, which is a bitter pill right there.

2. It means a limited release to start, so only 1-4 armies at most and probably a limited range at that, which will suck.
3. Depending on material it could get pricey, the original resin epic ranges did particularly badly due to cost even though they were gorgeous, same with the ugly metal rereleases for armageddon, just too expensive. Im just hoping they learn their lessons and keep the core plastic. 

[klisof]

You could probably keep using the 6mm old minis if it changes to 10mm, maybe just make sure the base sizes are right.

Some of the scales in the old epic were not that consistent if I remember correctly so it would be nice to have everything redone to modern standards.

 

The first GW games I played was the original adaptus titanicus and space marine boxes so I'm looking forward to this.  Hopefully the core of the new range will be plastic so the cost is not prohibitive.

[sockwithaticket]

I'll reiterate what I said in the Weekender thread. I think a change in scale would act as a barrier for people to re-engage with the game if they have extensive exisiting collections. I'd presume that while GW would be hoping to draw in new customers and new players to the Epic system, they'd have to be banking on the existing community getting involved in significant numbers.

Even if they don't buy into new models because they think that they've got their army they will still be buying rules, campaign books and whatever other auxilliary products exist (as we've seen 40k customers do with tactical objective cards and the like). Besides which, as we've seen with other systems, you're rarely done. New editions/rules tweaks make it necessary/preferable to purchase new/different units, not to mention the new shiny effect. If you've got an army you can add to it, having to start from scratch makes many people think twice.

[Xwingt65]

I'll reiterate what I said in the Weekender thread. I think a change in scale would act as a barrier for people to re-engage with the game if they have extensive exisiting collections. I'd presume that while GW would be hoping to draw in new customers and new players to the Epic system, they'd have to be banking on the existing community getting involved in significant numbers.

Even if they don't buy into new models because they think that they've got their army they will still be buying rules, campaign books and whatever other auxilliary products exist (as we've seen 40k customers do with tactical objective cards and the like). Besides which, as we've seen with other systems, you're rarely done. New editions/rules tweaks make it necessary/preferable to purchase new/different units, not to mention the new shiny effect. If you've got an army you can add to it, having to start from scratch makes many people think twice.

All true.

 

But it all depends on how tiny the current player base is. Or how small GW thinks it is.

 

But ultimately it is about GW choosing the scale that they feel will give us the models they are envisioning.

[Jolemai]

Moved to the correct sub-forum.

[AJB2K3]

You could probably keep using the 6mm old minis if it changes to 10mm, maybe just make sure the base sizes are right.

Some of the scales in the old epic were not that consistent if I remember correctly so it would be nice to have everything redone to modern standards.

 

The first GW games I played was the original adaptus titanicus and space marine boxes so I'm looking forward to this.  Hopefully the core of the new range will be plastic so the cost is not prohibitive.

 

You remember correctly, the titans were never consistant scales (Eldar had the biggest) after the emperor titan.

Tanks were all over the place scale wise (Rhino's the same scale as troupes) and the thunderhawk and other flyers was tiny!

[CommodusXIII]

I'll use it for terrain decorations (e.g. statues) and conversions, and will skip the actual game.

[m0nolith]

I 110% agree with increasing the sacale to 10mm.

The technology does not exist to make super detailed 6mm figures and keep it cost effective at the same time.

[Yodhrin]

So Atia reported from one of the seminars, that Epic, when it returns, won't be in 6mm but in a new scale. So as to not derail the HH weekender thread, let's discuss it here.

 

I think it is a good move. GW can't be a slave to the past, and the tiny active community.

 

If they raise the scale to say 10mm, the detail of the models will be out of this world.

 

It's hardly "being a slave to the past" to keep it 6mm, the reasons why it was 6mm haven't changed; scale(in the senses of spectacle and distance). Even keeping things 6mm and fixing the often wonky and undersized vehicle models would have resulted in Titans and superheavies getting a fair bit bigger, if they push it to 10mm or even 15mm then players will either have to collect smaller armies and thus lose the "cinematic" awe of the original game, or they will collect armies of a similar size to 6mm Epic and run into the same problem that modern 40K has - cramming too many units onto too small a tabletop generating a drastic reduction in the ability to maneuver and win battles using your wits rather than a calculator and your army list.

 

This isn't about "slavery to the past", it's about money. They don't want people who still have an Epic army gathering dust in their attic to be able to jump in to the new system without buying a ton of stuff, and they don't want people being able to buy from the large variety of 6mm not-Epic 3rd party model ranges that have sprung up over the years to serve the market abandoned by GW when they stopped developing and subsequently dumped the SGs.

 

Ugh, infuriating, I can't believe I let the involvement of FW guys in the new SG division override the normal level of cynicism GW have inspired in me over the years, now I'll have to listen to a litany of "I told ya so"'s from folk I told to hold-fire and not pre-judge :/

 

EDIT: And it seems that's the disconnect. If I wanted detailed infantry I would buy more 40K, the point of Epic is the size of the battles, and whether the models look good or not should be judged on their appearance as the huge blocks they're supposed to be, not whether you can see the eyeballs on Space Marine #765 of 900. Bumping up the scale gives you a marginal increase in the detail of individual figures at the cost of gameplay.

[shandwen]

I would far prefer models in 10mm scale compared to 6mm. The old fanbase for the game wasn't enough to keep it viable, and I hope they don't jump in too quick with it now and kill any chance of the game having a future. I am all for 3-4 factions to start with, and nothing fancy off the go. 

[Volt]

While I have no preexisting Epic Army- I would prefer retention of the old scale simply for greater ease of painting, and possibly more sane prices. Looking at historicals on the same scale, GW really would have no justification for price gouging. Hell, I wonder if this is actually the motivation behind the scale change- forces old players to buy whole new armies, and they can use it as an excuse to justify higher prices because of more detailed resin minis.

[Yodhrin]

I would far prefer models in 10mm scale compared to 6mm. The old fanbase for the game wasn't enough to keep it viable, and I hope they don't jump in too quick with it now and kill any chance of the game having a future. I am all for 3-4 factions to start with, and nothing fancy off the go. 

 

I understand B&C are less forgiving of indelicate language than Dakka, so I will express my reaction to that completely evidence-free assertion thusly: bovine manure. The old fanbase for the game has kept it alive and kicking for over a decade with zero help from GW and was plenty big enough to support many 3rd party companies producing sci-fi models in 6mm, the issue with the SGs was not that they didn't make any money, it's that GW were short-sighted fools who didn't think they made enough money, who mistakenly believed that every SG sale was a lost 40K sale(ie that their products were interchangeable; they are not), and were completely unwilling to consider other factors like customer retention and market denial, so they canned them.

 

That aside, and this is genuine: can bigger scale fans explain to me why they favour a bigger scale? Yes, yes, "more detail", but why? 6mm is adequate to express amazing levels of detail in the models which are the focus of Epic; Titans & superheavies. Infantry are not supposed to be individually detailed in a mass-warfare game, that defeats the purpose. In order to bump up the scale, you have to give up either the scope or the gameplay; battles must be smaller to accommodate the bigger models, or else the bigger models will make the tactical maneuvers of the original game untenable. I just don't get what the appeal is; what niche does a 10mm or 15mm game fill, except as a less detailed version of 40K?

[AJB2K3]

 

I would far prefer models in 10mm scale compared to 6mm. The old fanbase for the game wasn't enough to keep it viable, and I hope they don't jump in too quick with it now and kill any chance of the game having a future. I am all for 3-4 factions to start with, and nothing fancy off the go. 

 

That aside, and this is genuine: can bigger scale fans explain to me why they favour a bigger scale? Yes, yes, "more detail", but why? 6mm is adequate to express amazing levels of detail in the models which are the focus of Epic; Titans & superheavies. Infantry are not supposed to be individually detailed in a mass-warfare game, that defeats the purpose. In order to bump up the scale, you have to give up either the scope or the gameplay; battles must be smaller to accommodate the bigger models, or else the bigger models will make the tactical maneuvers of the original game untenable. I just don't get what the appeal is; what niche does a 10mm or 15mm game fill, except as a less detailed version of 40K?

 

 

I can (and still have pictures of) amazing painted epic armies that outshine 40K!

[Gillyfish]

I can (and still have pictures of) amazing painted epic armies that outshine 40K!

 

 

Yes. Back when Golden Daemon had a few Epic categories, you saw some wonderfully detailed models. I do have a substantial number of Epic models (it was the first GW game I bought). The whole appeal of the game was that you got to have proper battles with companies of infantry and tanks, several titans and squadrons of aircraft. 

 

Over the years, I have branched out to other systems and  have 6mm Napoleonics and a set of 10mm models (Dropzone). Now, IF a larger scale is selected for Epic (and it could be smaller of course ;) ) I could see it working quite well as a game of manoeuvre and counter-manoeuvre in a similar vein to Dropzone. That would be cool and quite a bit of fun, but would miss out on the grand sweep of the original game. Incidentally, that's why I like 6mm for Napoleonics - it gives a sense of grand scale which you would struggle to get on a 6'x4' table with 28mm or even 10mm models.

 

Ultimately, it's personal choice I suppose, but you can get good detail on 6mm models; it just requires a different approach. I even paint moustaches on some of my 6mm Napoleonics and I have seen a great Asterix and Obelix in 6mm too. ;) 

[Col.hertford]

 

You could probably keep using the 6mm old minis if it changes to 10mm, maybe just make sure the base sizes are right.

Some of the scales in the old epic were not that consistent if I remember correctly so it would be nice to have everything redone to modern standards.

 

The first GW games I played was the original adaptus titanicus and space marine boxes so I'm looking forward to this.  Hopefully the core of the new range will be plastic so the cost is not prohibitive.

 

 

You remember correctly, the titans were never consistant scales (Eldar had the biggest) after the emperor titan.

Tanks were all over the place scale wise (Rhino's the same scale as troupes) and the thunderhawk and other flyers was tiny!

Titans were pretty much in 6mm scale. It was the other stuff that was off. Back in the day, a warlord only had a princep in the head. Warhound a were one man crew.

 

Tony did say this COULD be the start of a wider game. The idea currently is Horus Heresy, so I would expect you filthy Xenos. Alan, Tony and Laurie were very explicit that Xenos hid from the massive war and licked their wounds...

[Eddie Orlock]

I've observed it common in historical games to use underscaled aircraft if only for ease of play, so protesting that the T'Hawks are too small might be calling a feature a bug.

If they do insist on changing the scale I'd like to see 15mm so that I can pit them against my Flames of War stuff more easily. 10mm I've found to be a fairly niche scale for some ancients and Napoleonics. It was no accident that Warmaster was that scale, but it also models a very different style of warfare.

... The whole appeal of the game was that you got to have proper battles with companies of infantry and tanks, several titans and squadrons of aircraft.

...

Ultimately, it's personal choice I suppose, but you can get good detail on 6mm models; it just requires a different approach. I even paint moustaches on some of my 6mm Napoleonics and I have seen a great Asterix and Obelix in 6mm too.

The second most common commentary I get from people who see my games for the first time is that it's a scale where the titans and aircraft actually make sense on the table. The most common being about how cool it looks.

It's also a table I liberally strew with buildings plucked from the historicals end of the shop. Can't have the combatants outclassing the field by too much.

Care to share from where you got the Gauls?

[Vogon]

I for one would love to expand my existing epic armies with shiny new toys.

 

The 40K scale stuff they've been bringing out for the Heresy would look great in 6mm as has been proved by those with the talent to make their own (sadly I'm not one of them).

 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a change in scale.  If I already have a large 40K scale HH army and I'm not really sure what the point would be of a halfway house between 40K and Epic.  If i want massed battles I want MASSED battles changing the scale would probably reduce the number of units on a table at which point why bother?

 

Just my 2c anyway.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

 

P.S. that epic scale FW warlord photo that was doing the rounds looked amazing.  I really want to get my hands on one of those.

[AJB2K3]

I for one would love to expand my existing epic armies with shiny new toys.

 

The 40K scale stuff they've been bringing out for the Heresy would look great in 6mm as has been proved by those with the talent to make their own (sadly I'm not one of them).

 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a change in scale.  If I already have a large 40K scale HH army and I'm not really sure what the point would be of a halfway house between 40K and Epic.  If i want massed battles I want MASSED battles changing the scale would probably reduce the number of units on a table at which point why bother?

 

Just my 2c anyway.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

 

P.S. that epic scale FW warlord photo that was doing the rounds looked amazing.  I really want to get my hands on one of those.

What image is this?

[Vogon]

There was an image from an open day that had Darren Parwood stood next to what looked like an epic scale version of the new Forge World Warlord.

 

Unfortunately I didn't save it but I'm sure some one on here has a copy.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

[CommodusXIII]

 

I for one would love to expand my existing epic armies with shiny new toys.

 

The 40K scale stuff they've been bringing out for the Heresy would look great in 6mm as has been proved by those with the talent to make their own (sadly I'm not one of them).

 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a change in scale.  If I already have a large 40K scale HH army and I'm not really sure what the point would be of a halfway house between 40K and Epic.  If i want massed battles I want MASSED battles changing the scale would probably reduce the number of units on a table at which point why bother?

 

Just my 2c anyway.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

 

P.S. that epic scale FW warlord photo that was doing the rounds looked amazing.  I really want to get my hands on one of those.

What image is this?

 

 

I think he means this one.

[Vogon]

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. that epic scale FW warlord photo that was doing the rounds looked amazing.  I really want to get my hands on one of those.

 

What image is this?

 

I think he means this one.

That's the bunny :-)

[AGPO]

Since Titanicus doesn't seem (initially at least) to be a re-release of Epic, I'm fine with having the titans at a different scale. Scale for Titans has varied dramatically in the fluff over the years, and you could easily justify the difference in scale with existing minis as different patterns from different Forge Worlds. More than anything I'd love to see the new Warlords have the posability of the contemptor

[Mard]

I for one hope when they say "not in 6mm" they really mean that the titans will be bigger than the old Epic ones.

If it doesn't work out the actually fairly extensive epic community will just turn their noses up at it.
I for one would love to see some new FW sculpts to go along with my forumware true scale titans.

Also the comments about not getting enough detail in 6mm is ridiculous, CAD and sculptors have come a long way and I have gorgeous 6mm infantry for marines and other armies.

But anyway, we all pretty much know that GW will do whatever the hell they want like normal
 

[AJB2K3]

OMG a decent beetleback upgrade and not a boxcar model