mechadryad Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Anyone else think the new speeder costs way too much? I get it has a different loadout but for 5 more points I can take two regular javelins with CML. I believe we have been given the Imperial Fist treatment with a few extra stabbings in the moustache and no proofreading as extra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Anyone else think the new speeder costs way too much? I get it has a different loadout but for 5 more points I can take two regular javelins with CML. I have the same opinion it's over a 100 points and doesnt get hunter killers free either. Sure kheres>multi melta but cyclones>reapers so it's not like it's all upgrades and it's much worse vs heavy / medium armour than before. And litterally costs as much as 2 regular javelins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Polo Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 By the way, Born in the Saddle got nerfed: it only applies to bikes and jetbikes. Sensible based on the name, but it used to be a nice boon to some underused units. Not really sure what direction I want to take my army in now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) By the way, Born in the Saddle got nerfed: it only applies to bikes and jetbikes. Sensible based on the name, but it used to be a nice boon to some underused units. Not really sure what direction I want to take my army in now. White scars got a lot of nerfs more than custodes funilly enough. No longer gain +1 to first turn role (only now seize and 1st reserve of turn) Only skilled rider for bikers now No longer gain +1 to cover saves from max move (retain +1 to wound) Glaives from 15 -> 25 points Chogorian brotherhood down to 1 heavy support Chogorian Brotherhood gives extra d3 VP for opponent killing your bikers. I'm not sure how many of these where actually justified and overall it brings down the strength of all white scars forces but with pretty :cuss special units I'm kind of confused why they were nerfed the hardest of any army in the heresey. Sunjoutsu jetbikes also make 0 sense why would you want one if you jink you cant shoot and golden keshig if they get charged you might as well just remove from the table. Qin xa guys actually pretty beastly and the fact his honour guard gets glaives at a decent price means if you want some terminators heres your guy. Tsoloman khan on bike hard to see why I'd want him over a regular praetor before diving blades he was maybe alright extra mobility pollux but hes no eidolon and 1 s8 attack isnt enough compared to diving blades 6 (for similar priced praetor). Khyzagan definetly overcosted way to much over a regular Javellin but it can do sole damage still so not horrible. Ebon keshig so close to being good if they didnt have kharash without any character buffing, no scoring and no ws5 I'm at a loss. Sure you get glaives which are damn good but also no guns unless you pay crazy points to lose your glaive. Chosen warriors is a gimmick as you cant protect characters unless in a multi charge. I guess fnp is something but really could have been a lot better without kharash. Golden keshig rofl what is the purpose of this unit 6 s7 attacks requires a chaplain to even try and use and their only special rule is provided by their primarch and unique right of war. I guess they hit fast if you charge and kill 1 terminator on average for near 400 points sick... Falcons claws probably an alright unit cheap per a man cost. 4+ save is meh but lighting claws and that 18" scout maybe they have some use just not a unit I expected for the scars and not what I'd want to play but seem alright. The Khan honestly pretty decent sucks he loses crusader and an initiative on the bike. Army wide scout is solid his unit getting hit and run is to besides the wide spread availability of it feels wasted. Hes not the best combatant but t7 3++ is decent survivability. Dunno why he has no save in psychic or movement phases dont know why he has 2 heavy bolters but can only use one. And I also assume it's intended he can be used in chogorian Brotherhood but raw he cant be. I dunno I like the scars but I have to say I am a bit disappointed outside of the khan I feel we didnt really get any units we would really want to use. Edited April 17, 2019 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechadryad Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Tsoloman's hammer is S10 actually, the real kicker is it won't work with the Sister due to how Glorious Intervention works Everything else is spot on though, the Lancers can't do their job and our main source of anti tank is melta bombs to a degree that makes the only legion specific rite of war we have unattractive. (the other is for shattered legions, it doesn't count) This seems less like trying to reign them in and more like an attempt to make them unplayable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) Tsoloman's hammer is S10 actually, the real kicker is it won't work with the Sister due to how Glorious Intervention works Everything else is spot on though, the Lancers can't do their job and our main source of anti tank is melta bombs to a degree that makes the only legion specific rite of war we have unattractive. (the other is for shattered legions, it doesn't count) This seems less like trying to reign them in and more like an attempt to make them unplayable Good catch on the hammer I knew he was str5 but blanked on it and just wrote stock marine hammer 8 whoops. But yeah ws got God damn gutted and I dont really get to what point if they were strong people would play them but they are the least played legion and have been since book 1. Edited April 18, 2019 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechadryad Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 If the polls on 30k Reddit just before book 7 are anything to go by (the sample size was pretty decent) including all armies and divisions of said armies WS were the least played legion and the second least played army, just 1 vote ahead of Militia. I never even saw another WS player outside of the internet, let alone heard of one winning consistently. Probably a few loud people reading the rules and whinging to FW. I often found people didn't even read the rule properly, I'm talking not even finishing the sentence and claiming bikes get a 2+ jink six months after book 6 came out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 They were pretty strong before, I don't think it's a deathknell to them at all. There are some rules goofs but nothing that can't be fixed. On the topic of Golden Keshig,they hit at S7 AP2 at I10 with Concussive, Sunder and Murderous Strike. Has to be some use for all of those rules ...! Taking a power weapon on a few may be advantageous though, for a potential round 2 of combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechadryad Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 They were pretty strong before, I don't think it's a deathknell to them at all. There are some rules goofs but nothing that can't be fixed. On the topic of Golden Keshig,they hit at S7 AP2 at I10 with Concussive, Sunder and Murderous Strike. Has to be some use for all of those rules ...! Taking a power weapon on a few may be advantageous though, for a potential round 2 of combat. Depends if they bother to even fix it, the new rules guy didn't give off a great impression when I met him. Maybe if they could get more then 1 attack it'd be good, but wit S7 you can't throw this at vehicles either 10pts per dude for 2 attacks (coz 2 weapons) isn't enough to fix them, I'd argue it makes them worse that you have to pay for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 They were pretty strong before, I don't think it's a deathknell to them at all. This. Very much so. Also, 'skilled rider' now only affecting Scars actually riding a bike / jetbike makes far more sense. As for the new units, Ebon Keshig are quite good, as are the Falcon's Claws. And the aforementioned bodyguard of Qin Xa is ... brutal. Tsolmon, whilst not overly powerful (when has this game become 40k any ways I wonder sometimes ... ) is so cool a character, I'm debating whether or not to start a Scars army solely for him. Yes, Golden Keshig seem to be ... overly niche by now, but I'm sure someone will be coming up with a creative ways to use them. The only real blunder in the WS rules, as far as I'm concerned, is the Scatterbolt Launcher, which is useless after jinking - derp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 They were pretty strong before, I don't think it's a deathknell to them at all. There are some rules goofs but nothing that can't be fixed. On the topic of Golden Keshig,they hit at S7 AP2 at I10 with Concussive, Sunder and Murderous Strike. Has to be some use for all of those rules ...! Taking a power weapon on a few may be advantageous though, for a potential round 2 of combat. Initiative first is good but they are garbage statline wise with mediocre WS 1/6 attacks have murderous strike ie 1/unit so still 1.25 terminators dead and sunder on s7 6 attacks you dont even average a hull point vs a dread like mathematically its horrendous without a chaplain and only slightly better with. Your whole unit is worse than a diving blade praetor which makes me wonder why it costs closer to 400 than the 200 of such a praetor. If you have to stay till round 2 with your litterally normal jetbikes you've either been killed or left with a non functional unit or charged regular marines with your death stat otherwise your unit just really doesnt so much. It's not the deathknell to white scars but are hit and run and skilled on non melee bikers comparable to rad grenades and acid shells not really acid shells are amazing and white scars are now solidly the second biker legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Okay but maybe don't compare everything to a Divining Blade Preator? That's a really powerful choice with a ridiculous weapon that is only ever going to make other choices look inferior... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Okay but maybe don't compare everything to a Divining Blade Preator? That's a really powerful choice with a ridiculous weapon that is only ever going to make other choices look inferior... Except that's not even the closest comparison he gets 1 attack to eidolons 5 I get that hes the secondary character like polux but he sucks what's unique or useful about him besides a sister waifu on foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechadryad Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) Okay but maybe don't compare everything to a Divining Blade Preator? That's a really powerful choice with a ridiculous weapon that is only ever going to make other choices look inferior... Except that's not even the closest comparison he gets 1 attack to eidolons 5 I get that hes the secondary character like polux but he sucks what's unique or useful about him besides a sister waifu on foot. While I agree with most of your take on the change to WS, Charlo is correct. You can't compare it to the maximum scenario all the time, you may as well compare it to Russ which would make every melee character bad. Not to mention it makes you come off very WAC. A fairer comparison is the Nemean Reaver or Sigismund, I'd actually say the OG templar is who all combat praetors should be compared to S&T 5 with a thunder hammer is good, end of. Everything else he does is just a bonus at his cost. My problem isn't the characters (while I would've liked a stormseer) but with the units: Wish We Were Custodes - These look like they were stronger in development but were nerfed because they killed custodes squad or something. Now they join the Locutarus as units no one will ever play, if the Khârn made them troops you'd consider it. Ebon Keshig - No transport option, that's a problem. The options are just confusing to read and overcosted, not to mention even if you make them troops they can't score while not getting much in return for it. Falcon Claw - Recon armour haves them very vulnerable and means you don't actually want them in combat, I5 would fix this. Kyzagan Speeder - Maybe a touch too expensive but not bad by any stretch. Fills a different niche to the javelin at least but not the kind of thing you stuff your FA with The most painful thing is the HS limit to the brotherhood which is just overkill, it essentially goes from having a weak spot to removing one of it's limbs. Give me an outrider RoW and I may as well be playing UM Edited April 18, 2019 by mechadryad Unknown Legionnaire 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) I wrote up a quick take on 3k chogorian but it doesnt feel very good probably cause gold keshig are :cusse. Jaghati Khan - bike Praetor - jetbike diving blade, digital laser, melta bomb, iron halo Chaplain - jetbike, glaive, melta bombs, refractor field, psi resonant pentacles, crozius mace 6 golden keshig (all characters cause may as well try) - melta bombs 3 x 6 jetbikes - sergeants, glaives, melta bombs 2 × 2 khyzagan speeders Lighting strike fighter - auguries, battle servitor, ramjet 6 krakens Fire raptor - autocannons, ceramite, hellstrikes Comes out to 3k but it doesnt feel very good everything just costs a lot but is pretty much paper at the least the death star should be able to kill something I hope... Edited April 18, 2019 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 I have to agree that scars units are someohow lackluster. Ironicaly (in my opinion) the best "special" unit they got is Xa's bodyguard which is just a coomand squad with a dao option. Ebon Keshig - I wouldn't call them weak, because aside from WS4 their rules are quite solid. Transport isn not really an issue because you can put them in a phobos or spartan anyway. My main gripe with this unit however is that they cannot be joined by de facto any character (unless I am missing something). Golden Keshig - Agreed that it look's like they decided to add Cumbersome after some "playtesting". When they remove Cumbersome in some errata they will be perfect Khan's deathstar bodyguard. Falcon Claws - In their current state I would take bare minimum just to get another falcon. Falcons are the best thing SW get. Close combat scouts on the other hand are a joke. Speeder - normal javelin does vehicle hunting better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 (edited) I have to agree that scars units are someohow lackluster. Ironicaly (in my opinion) the best "special" unit they got is Xa's bodyguard which is just a coomand squad with a dao option. Ebon Keshig - I wouldn't call them weak, because aside from WS4 their rules are quite solid. Transport isn not really an issue because you can put them in a phobos or spartan anyway. My main gripe with this unit however is that they cannot be joined by de facto any character (unless I am missing something). Golden Keshig - Agreed that it look's like they decided to add Cumbersome after some "playtesting". When they remove Cumbersome in some errata they will be perfect Khan's deathstar bodyguard. Falcon Claws - In their current state I would take bare minimum just to get another falcon. Falcons are the best thing SW get. Close combat scouts on the other hand are a joke. Speeder - normal javelin does vehicle hunting better. Yup qin xa and his bodyguard are actually the best unit for scars though obviously are still foot terminators. No characters have kharash so non can join them a chaplain would make such a huge difference if they could. Without cumbersome they would be a crazy glass cannon still very much paper to dedicated fire but they would kill a hell of a lot if they get into combat. - in retrospect they only have 1 goddam attack anyways so whatever :cuss this unit. Mhm but they are cheap for lighting claws so it's not the single worst unit we could have gotten. As a non infantry user hawks are meh to me so is the unit as a whole though. Yup just worse but kheres feels fun at least? Edited April 18, 2019 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Without cumbersome they would be a crazy glass cannon still very much paper to dedicated fire but they would kill a hell of a lot if they get into combat. - in retrospect they only have 1 goddam attack anyways so whatever this unit. Well, as I think of it, without cumbersome and Jaghatai they would really wreck some other deathstars: 1. Some softening up from plasma squad or whatever 2. Keshig and Khan charges, They ALWAYS strike first - Khan because he's a Khan and Keshig because I10 3. Khan kills the bodyguard that's left after plasma trimming 4. Keshig attacks primarch - they strike first with S7 and concussive Depends on a deathstar you're after (dorn/vulkan + shields/horus with Blacks are mayby not a great target) and of course and it's just the theory but mayby it can be refined... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Well, as I think of it, without cumbersome and Jaghatai they would really wreck some other deathstars: 1. Some softening up from plasma squad or whatever 2. Keshig and Khan charges, They ALWAYS strike first - Khan because he's a Khan and Keshig because I10 3. Khan kills the bodyguard that's left after plasma trimming 4. Keshig attacks primarch - they strike first with S7 and concussive Depends on a deathstar you're after (dorn/vulkan + shields/horus with Blacks are mayby not a great target) and of course and it's just the theory but mayby it can be refined... In theory sounds super cool until you math hammer out how little damage the 12 s7 attacks do especially without rerolls and especially to 3++ terminators and if they have fnp it's also an issue except for 2 attacks maybe... being s8 all the time is a big deal for power fists over these it's also 6 models isnt enough for a true death star caliber unit when they have 1 attack or 2 on the charge (*if cumbersome was removed) it's just not enough dice and then they die for every wound coming there way from the squad they attack. But it would at least be much better than now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Because all the legions have 3++ terminators and FNP....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Because all the legions have 3++ terminators and FNP....? No what In saying is it's bad before that stuff its actual garbage vs it you dont kill a single model with your 6 attacks on average. You average 1 cataphravti kill normally with fnp 3+ you average half a wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechadryad Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Because all the legions have 3++ terminators and FNP....? 2 of the most played legions (IF and TS) have them and can run multiples, but anything with 5++ or better will be way too resistant for what you had to do to get that charge. At S7 it's not even ignoring FnP and let's not get started on 2W squads, they'd genuinely have been better if they were powerfists and I'd commit to command squads being better in every. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Because all the legions have 3++ terminators and FNP....? 2 of the most played legions (IF and TS) have them and can run multiples, but anything with 5++ or better will be way too resistant for what you had to do to get that charge. At S7 it's not even ignoring FnP and let's not get started on 2W squads, they'd genuinely have been better if they were powerfists and I'd commit to command squads being better in every. Okay but one of those is Loyalist so you won't be fighting them most likely anyway. The others are Sehkmet which people are reluctant to abuse, and even if you do now with Psykarna there are other tools to aid in their destruction too. FNP can't be made against those murderous strikes either :D While I fully agree they're a little undercooked, I don't think the Keshig are awful. Unknown Legionnaire 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Yeah, since Chogorian Brotherhood is a pretty *meh* RoW any ways, I'd forego a Master of the Legion and would instead spice the Keshig up with a Legion Champion and a Chaplain Consul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechadryad Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 (edited) Any ideas on how to deal with the increased weakness to vehicles? I'm thinking Attack Bikes or Mechanicum allies at the moment but I'd prefer something a bit more reliable like Graviton. Edited April 20, 2019 by mechadryad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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