Regarding the new formations

[CommissarHughes]

After obsessing over the thousand sons legion for months on end, I've decided to start coming back to guard till forge world puts out some of the models I need. So I've got a question for all with the new formations; how have you all been finding success with the Cadian formations? I had a problem with the lack of objective secured for regular infantry (Though I'm considering two Emperor's blades) and I'd like know if and how anyone made them work well on the table.

[Emicus]

Out of the new ones I've honestly just tried the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company and the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon. The rest is just so.. incredibly.. bulky. The Infantry Platoon isn't even that great, I just wanted to add some bodies to my list, and the smallest formation was simply 55 models and a Sentinel, go figure the rest are HUGE.

 

​The tank one (Armoured Company) is neat with the BS4 bubble and 2d6 pick the lowest for armour penetration rolls, but it's going to set you back 2/3rds of your points in 1500 point games. The rest is barely enough for support if the least you can drop on troops is 300+, nothing else even fits.

There's one benefit though, or should I say three. Each detachment of Astra Militarum allows you to take 0-3 of each Regimental Specialist. So you can get as many priests as you damn well please when stapling formations together!

[Lukash_]

The Decurion is simply not workable...you need to play at 2000+ to effectively use it. The only two formations I've tried are the artillery company and the assault company.

 

We all know how good veterans are, and giving them the Preferred Enemy buff is just icing on the cake. Not to mention it's the sole formation that grants Objective Secured. The artillery one makes Basilisks good again, grants Wyverns Pinning...all kinds of fun stuff, for quite cheap.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Emperor's shied infantry platoon is a nifty way to hide 5 relentless heavy weapons in 40 bodies. There's a bit of a disconnect between the lasguns and heavy weapons, but if firing at heavy but woundable infantry, it can work. Alternatively, 5 heavy bolters will make for mean anti infantry.

[librisrouge]

The only way I've fielded the Cadian Battle Group is the armored formation combined with the one for mechanized veterans. I could barely fit that. It isn't a cheap decurion at all and I have yet to find an infantry list I would like from it, sadly. The lack of priests really hurts it compared to a basic CAD.

 

As far as formations, most are pretty good, especially if you were taking them anyway. The flyer one is wonderful and the psykana division has potential if you're tired of losing in that phase.

[Emicus]

Libriseogue, you can take 3 priests per Astra Militarum detachment. Nothing stops you from taking them in the Decurion, so load 'em up.

 

Edit: Oh, and I'll put a word in for the Sentinel formation! I don't by any means think it's good, but I like Sentinels.

 

And the Flyer one is cool aside from being 1 flier overweight compared to similar formations in other books.

[Akrim]

Libriseogue, you can take 3 priests per Astra Militarum detachment. Nothing stops you from taking them in the Decurion, so load 'em up.

Edit: Oh, and I'll put a word in for the Sentinel formation! I don't by any means think it's good, but I like Sentinels.

And the Flyer one is cool aside from being 1 flier overweight compared to similar formations in other books.

This debate has happened on this forum a couple times. I felt the same too but I conceded that you can't take Priests. The logic being that it isn't an Astra Militarum detachment, it's a Cadian Battlegroup detachment. The formation have no slots for "no force org units" to be added on. You can take Commissars as they can be included in the Infantry Squads entry. Sadly the Ministorum is left out.

 

Its workable but Emperors Shield platoons not having Ob Sec is BS. You're better off using Formation detachments.

[Emicus]

Compute error. 'Astra Militarum Detachment' does not exists under that line of reasoning as it's a 'Combined Arms Detachment' (codex not mentioned). The priests and other specialists specifically do not take a force org slot, therefore none is required.

 

Any detachment is a detachment. Can't you take a priest in an allies detachment? What slot does it fit into?

[Akrim]

Compute error. 'Astra Militarum Detachment' does not exists under that line of reasoning as it's a 'Combined Arms Detachment' (codex not mentioned). The priests and other specialists specifically do not take a force org slot, therefore none is required.

 

Any detachment is a detachment. Can't you take a priest in an allies detachment? What slot does it fit into?

You still cant add No Force Org stuff onto a formational detachment. You only options are Command, Core and Auxiliary.

 

Also see the entry: ``Each Astra Militarum detachment may include...`` (0-3 Ministorum Priests)

 

You could totally take Priests in an Allied Detachement.

 

[Emicus]

If I were to apply that line of reasoning I'd not touch the new formations with a barge pole. They'd be damn near useless.

 

Of course there is no slots for units that don't take any slots!

 

Where so you find the units in the Cadian battlegroup? The astra militarum book. How anyone can refer to source material without using the source material is beyond me to comprehend.

 

I'll stop arguing this now. My club accepts that a guard Decurion using the guard book also follows guard force org in relation to units that are outside the force org entirely. I encourage everyone else to talk with their local group as well cause good luck taking 170+ infantry without as much as a priest to keep them running.

 

I thought the Decurion was high maintenance and overweight before but now it's just dead in the water. At least marines get easy access to wyverns now so they can permanently park their whirlwinds.

[Akrim]

If I were to apply that line of reasoning I'd not touch the new formations with a barge pole. They'd be damn near useless.

Of course there is no slots for units that don't take any slots!

Where so you find the units in the Cadian battlegroup? The astra militarum book. How anyone can refer to source material without using the source material is beyond me to comprehend.

I'll stop arguing this now. My club accepts that a guard Decurion using the guard book also follows guard force org in relation to units that are outside the force org entirely. I encourage everyone else to talk with their local group as well cause good luck taking 170+ infantry without as much as a priest to keep them running.

I thought the Decurion was high maintenance and overweight before but now it's just dead in the water. At least marines get easy access to wyverns now so they can permanently park their whirlwinds.

Argue away lol, I totally agree it's stupid for them not to have Priests. It is a bit of rules lawyering to argue that a "Cadian Battle Group Detachment" isn't an "Astra Militarum Detachment". I'm not sure I even agree with it, but that seems to be concensus around the web. GW not doing any FAQs only compounds the problem.

 

That said though, I think the CBG has some good formations, I wouldnt recommend using the Emperors Shield platoons anyways with no ObSec. Take a CAD and use additional formation detachments.

[Formerly Wu]

 

 It is a bit of rules lawyering to argue that a "Cadian Battle Group Detachment" isn't an "Astra Militarum Detachment". 

 

A CBG Detachment is expressly not an Astra Militarum Detachment because there is no such thing; only other Detachments that also have the Astra Militarum Faction. You can be a Cadian Detachment without using the CBG; the only restriction is to special characters.

 

The 7th Rulebook states that you can include units without an FOC slot in any Detachment, but they must adhere to any other Detachment restrictions. The Restrictions portion of the CBG states that "only the datasheets listed here can be included in this Detachment." I think that's pretty cut and dried: no priests.

 

That said, I agree with you that it is also stupid and limiting (as are many other things about the CBG). I'm currently working on a fixed/expanded houserule version of the CBG, and wouldn't have a problem with anyone who wanted to throw in a commissar or two. Hardly gamebreaking.

[duz_]

If I were to apply that line of reasoning I'd not touch the new formations with a barge pole. They'd be damn near useless.

 

Of course there is no slots for units that don't take any slots!

 

Where so you find the units in the Cadian battlegroup? The astra militarum book. How anyone can refer to source material without using the source material is beyond me to comprehend.

 

I'll stop arguing this now. My club accepts that a guard Decurion using the guard book also follows guard force org in relation to units that are outside the force org entirely. I encourage everyone else to talk with their local group as well cause good luck taking 170+ infantry without as much as a priest to keep them running.

 

I thought the Decurion was high maintenance and overweight before but now it's just dead in the water. At least marines get easy access to wyverns now so they can permanently park their whirlwinds.

I'm with you on this the CDG is a detachment based off the Cadia supplement which says its based off the AM codex which says 0-3 priests per detachment

 

Really the argument is CDG considered one large detachment so only 0-3 or does each detachment component grant you 0-3

 

It comes down to who you're playing or what the TO rules

 

The same arguments go for commissars

 

You get 1 per ccs/pcs but the CBG doesn't specify this

So are they allowed or not?

What guard player in the right mind would let 50 guardsmen get slain in combat because they lost by 1 wound failed leadership check and were run down...

[Akrim]

 

It is a bit of rules lawyering to argue that a "Cadian Battle Group Detachment" isn't an "Astra Militarum Detachment".

 

 

A CBG Detachment is expressly not an Astra Militarum Detachment because there is no such thing; only other Detachments that also have the Astra Militarum Faction. You can be a Cadian Detachment without using the CBG; the only restriction is to special characters.

 

The 7th Rulebook states that you can include units without an FOC slot in any Detachment, but they must adhere to any other Detachment restrictions. The Restrictions portion of the CBG states that "only the datasheets listed here can be included in this Detachment." I think that's pretty cut and dried: no priests.

 

That said, I agree with you that it is also stupid and limiting (as are many other things about the CBG). I'm currently working on a fixed/expanded houserule version of the CBG, and wouldn't have a problem with anyone who wanted to throw in a commissar or two. Hardly gamebreaking.

One problem with that is that is that no "data sheets" exist for the units in the AM codex as the book predates the new data sheet format.

 

Commissars are a different case than Priests & Primaris Pskyers in that they are add ons to CCS and Platoons. I believe they are allowed in CBG.

[Formerly Wu]

 

One problem with that is that is that no "data sheets" exist for the units in the AM codex as the book predates the new data sheet format.

 

Commissars are a different case than Priests & Primaris Pskyers in that they are add ons to CCS and Platoons. I believe they are allowed in CBG.

 

 

Re: datasheets, that line of reasoning strikes me as pretty rules lawyer. Datasheets and unit entries are functionally identical for every publication since C:AM. But whatever.

 

I think you're incorrect on the second point; commissars are a slotless HQ choice whose numbers/deployment is limited by the CCS and PCS, but they're not an "add-on" in the army selection sense. They're not contained within the PCS/CCS entry, so they need to be chosen separately.

 

Again, I wouldn't argue with adding any of these to a CBG, but it would be house rules (which I in no way consider a dirty word).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'll put in my 2 Cents. I find the Cadian Battlegroup only marginally useful. It is useful for taking casual tank commanders and company commmand squads. So take a small CBG of say 2-3 CCS with Masters of ordnance, and Officers of the Fleet, to work trickery with any army. The Officers can order each others units to do things. 2units with a pool of 4 orders, each CCS issues an order to it's own squad and then 1 to the other. Then you have Cover ignoring basalisk rounds with tank hunter or monster hunter. Win.

 

Other than that, the CBG just gets too bloated too quickly, and is almost unplayable below 2000 points (It can be done, but not satisfactorily). The Auxiliary formations are pretty decent, the Emperor's blade looks promising (I'm only a hellhound away from fielding it), the Emperor's Talon also looks decent (need 4 more sentinels to make that one) because outflanking armored sentinels is brilliant, and the Emperor's wrath (I need another wyvern, CCS w/chimera, and a manticore) is devastating since you can order the tanks to do things. The Emperor's Spear, which I can field and have, is quite good. It enters from reserves as a unit, but each flyer functions independently, and can be made up of any combination of Valkyries or vendettas. In addition you can forfeit jink on any one model to allow it to deposit troops via Grav Chute without scattering. Take 2 Valks and a Vendetta, and vets or infantry squads in the valks and you can put them down anywhere you like. Also, because they're all independent, they don't need to go the same places. Gaining board control T2 was never so easy.

 

Anyway, the big thing is the individual formations are good, but the way the whole thing comes together is poorly executed, and I hope when we get our new codex, they have rethought this mess and give us something good.

[duz_]

I don't believe you lose jink on the low altitude insertion

You just run the risk of flying into a building

[march10k]

I like the idea of starting with a bog-standard CAD, and adding a formation or two from the CBG...like the 5+ tank one (4-7 is how many I'd field anyway) or the outflanking armored sentinels one.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I don't believe you lose jink on the low altitude insertion

You just run the risk of flying into a building

No, the formation specifically says that you forfeit jink, and that it cant go over terrain that's over 3 inches tall. Those are the restrictions in the rule. I had forgotten about the terrain restriction, but there it is. It can be a real game changer if you plan ahead, and your opponent cooperates.

[duz_]

 

 

I don't believe you lose jink on the low altitude insertion

You just run the risk of flying into a building

No, the formation specifically says that you forfeit jink, and that it cant go over terrain that's over 3 inches tall. Those are the restrictions in the rule. I had forgotten about the terrain restriction, but there it is. It can be a real game changer if you plan ahead, and your opponent cooperates.

Well between the pair of us we got there in the end ;)

[bozo69pd]

I think my Nurgle Daemons CAD will bring an enslaved Psykana division in a corner just to use for warp charges.

[duz_]

Out if curiosity how does an enslaved commissar justify working for daemons? ;)

[Emicus]

I can't believe I'm assisting in this atrocious heresy but.. Daemonic possession?

[bozo69pd]

I use a converted fantasy chick with a PB head as the Primaris, that good ol fantasy Nurgle Chaos Lord with the axe as my commissar (off with their heads!) and the cultists with pistols and ccw as my wyrdvanes. Looks pretty sweet alongside all those daemons! Well 12" away anyways.