Dreadnought Drop pod Shrouded Question

[Athrawes]

Hope you guys can help, this came up In a game I played last weekend. 

 

If a Dreadnought remains on the Dreadnought drop pod the turn it arrives and chooses to shoot an enemy unit. Does that enemy unit get the Shrouded rule?

 

The Burning Retros rule says that any unit targeted by a shooting attack whose line of sight passes through or over the drop pod gains shrouded. SO would the shooting attack from the dreadnought on the Drop pod count as its line of site passing through/over the drop pod?  

[Ishagu]

If the Dread is in the Pod then no.

[Athrawes]

I guess my problem with understanding the rule is how it's worded. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yes, enemies would benefit if  you shot through/over the pod on your turn. That being said, staying embarked in the pod is way better than getting out

[Athrawes]

Yes, enemies would benefit if  you shot through/over the pod on your turn. That being said, staying embarked in the pod is way better than getting out

 Yeah, thats pretty much what my group agreed on for that game. The unit enemy got a 5+ from shrouded, but it was still better to keep the dread in the pod because of 3 av12 hp shield.

[Terminus]

If you stay embarked, you don't have to worry about enemy cover saves even though technically your line of sight (from the dreadnought) would go over or through the pod. 

 

 

 

Open-topped Transports do not have specific Fire Points. Instead, all passengers in an Open-topped Transport can fire, measuring range and line of sight from any point on the hull of the vehicle.

So you can just measure from any point of the vehicle where the LOS would not cross the pod and thus not grant the enemy cover saves.  If you are drawing LOS from the dread itself, that line would cross the pod and you would give them shrouded. 

 

Honestly, the latter part makes more sense from a fluff/narrative stand-point (the giant dust-cloud kicked up by burning retros doesn't discriminate), but them's the rules.

[Theredknight]

Yeah, it's open topped isn't it?

So if your shooting out of it no they don't get cover saves from you shooting out of your open topped vehicle.

It's models so you can't really represent a gun sticking out and shooting from an open topped hole in the wall made for guns to go in to shoot enemy models.

Cmon guys this is simple stuff. Let's not over complicate this. Open topped = not passing over or through the open topped vehicle you are embarked upon.

[Athrawes]

The updated rules release now, changed the wording on burning retros. It now explicitly states that if the Dreadnought remains embarked in the pod, then any unit it fires at gains shrouded as well.

[Theredknight]

Ok, I was just looking at the rule now, how do some people claim a 3+ cover save for the dread?

It says it and the pod get shrouded, and units targetted passing over or through the pod (includes doors)

Is it clear that the dread gains 'shrouded' twice really? I'm not 100% on that one

[Slips]

Model is partially obscured by another model = 5+ Cover

 

Shrouded = +2 to cover saves

 

Thats all there is to it.

[Theredknight]

Ah with claiming the 25% rule or the shooting through other units?

[Resonance]

Well that all changed with the new red book. look it up as I don't have he red book yet

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GFB ignores cover... Win .

[Terminus]

Phosphex doesn't though, and I really liked unloading the full bear on arrival!

[Slips]

Phosphex is Barrage, however.

[Guiltysparc]

Phosphex is Barrage, however.

 

oh brilliant...because you determine line of sight from the center of the blast marker for barrage weapons...had to look that up, lol

[Charlo]

Phosphex is Barrage, however.

 

Ohhhh yessssss

[m0nolith]

Maybe im showing my ignorence here, but Im trying to understand if anything has changed.

The pod lands, door drop down.

The dread can not assault until next turn, nor can it be assaulted, but it (the dread inside) can be shot at.

Dread inside gets +2 for shrouded and +2 for standing on top of a door to a total of a 3+ cover save, however anything else it shoots gains the 3++ cover save as well.

Now, If I was to say use a Leviathan with phospex, whatever its arms and the nipples (yes ) shoot at gets a 3++ save, but not the phospex because its line of fire is determined form the blast template?

Am I getting anything wrong here?

EDIT: Also, does that phospex count as direct or indirect fire if I can see the model from the drop pod?

[Brofist]

It's ok. We've gone through it a few times on this board already, so I don't want to re-ignite the debate, but this is probably the most objective summary. There are basically two interpretations:

 

The discussion basically boils down to a single comma (or lack thereof).

 

The dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controller player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect.

 

Per basic rules of grammar, without a comma before unless, the "case" referred to here is "does not have to deploy out".

 

With a comma, the case referred to becomes "unless the controlling player wishes".

 

In other words, it's the difference between:

The doors open and you may be shot at while embarked, but can't be assaulted.

 

Works as before where you are immune to being shot or charged while embarked. If you disembark, you can be shot at but are immune to being charged.

 

I would prefer the latter option, since it means ablative hull points for contemptors or Leviathans that disembark to avoid giving the opponent shrouding while maintaining charge immunity. The rule as written though seems to suggest the first option.

[Guiltysparc]

I tihnk the key word is the "still" in "may still be targeted by shooting attacks".  You could never shoot a dreadnaught that stayed in the pod, so if  "the case" referres to a pod-bound dread, using "still" would not apply.  Not to mention that there is no other instance of being able to target models embarked in a transport found in the game.

 

Conversly, being able to target a model that isn't in a transport in the norm, so using "still" in that case makes sense if the intent of the rule is to disallow charging said model.

 

Either way, i find that part of the rule very odd.  It would be odd to be able to target a model thats in a transport and it would be odd to be unable to charge a model that is not in a transport, lol.

[Terminus]

Although I've initially sided on the grammar side of the argument, I'm now leaning towards the RAI interpretation, if only because FW has a 90% chance to get it wrong grammatically, and the no assaulting is less an exception to the rules than the pickle of determining how much of a unit in a transport is concealed.

 

Given that it was nerfed by cost increase and nerfed in offensive potential by giving the entrenched opponent shrouding, throwing it a small buff by extending the charge protection even if you leave the pod. Maybe the retros and billowing winds from this small school bus that just impacted the ground create conditions impossible to charge into, but you can still shoot into the cloud?

 

Of course, this means you can't shoot the occupant, which makes the most obnoxious variant (grav/phosphex/flamer leviathan) the one least impacted by the changes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It always feels so good to beat a dead horse over and over again simply just to do it again... Right ?

[Terminus]

Yes, that horse murdered my father, and it deserved to die. And desecration is ongoing therapy for dead dad PTSD! Check your ableist privilege bruh!

[m0nolith]

I just saw the horse move...

There are two player options here as I see it:

 

Pod deploys, doors have to open (it says that specifically)

 

1. The Dread inside can stay in the pod, can be targeted, but it gains Shrouded + cant be assaulted that turn

2. The Dread deploys out on the door petals, can be targeted, can be assaulted, but gains Shrouded + Obstruction from the pod itself (if its on the other side of the targeting unit) to a total of 3+ cover.

[Spinsanity]

I just saw the horse move...

There are two player options here as I see it:

Looks like you're in the minority seeing it this way...

 

The other way to look at it is has the following options :

 

1. The Dread can stay in the pod, cannot be targeted and cannot be assaulted (which is standard while in a transport)

2. The Dread deploys out (on the door petals or not), can be targetted but it gains Shrouded if a. he's on a door petal or b. the shot has to go through/over any part of the dread including the door petals, and it cannot be assaulted that turn.

 

While your reading makes sense, the fact that the Burning Retros rule specifically mentions "it may still be targeted" seems to imply the dreadnought would have been targettable whether the rule existed or not, and "it may not be charged" seems to imply he should have been a valid charge target, two conditions which would NOT be possible (usually) if he remained in the pod. Thus, the so-called logical conclusion is to assume that the rule refers to the case where the dread pops out.