Path of Heaven - Discussion

[Marshal Loss]

Poor phrasing does not = misreading.

 

As for quotes, read Betrayal, and then compare the EC with the other Legions. It sounds like you are just going off the novels. The EC planning to the extreme over and above what the Ultramarines do is not opinion, it is fact. There is a difference between choreography and a flexible battle plan.

 

 

How are we defining efficiency?

Some factors to consider:

1. Time to victory
2. Victory to loss ratio
3. Kill to death ratio
4. Kill to force ratio
5. Kill to resources expended ratio
6. Force to force ratio
7. Ratio between campaigns fought under preferred conditions and campaigns fought under non-preferred conditions
8. Probablity of enountering preferred conditions vs. non-preferred
9. % kill to % loss ratio, etc.

 

As entertaining as it is to see you needlessly convolute a simple premise, as I said above, there is no overall efficiency. There isn't an average efficiency, either. Efficiency is in the eyes of the beholder, it is contextual. The Sons of Horus, like I said, were considered the greatest because their own particular form of warfare suited the needs of the age. They conquered brutally and quickly, moving the Great Crusade along at a breakneck pace. You can't come up with a mean formula, as that would require you to rank various factors against each other, when there are contextual factors to take into account here. This also provides an in-universe explanation of why Primarchs have different approaches, or even why different arms of the same organisation operate in with completely different aims.

 

We have been talking about efficiency on the battlefield. The Emperor's Children are a Legion known for choreographed, set piece engagements where everything is designed to go perfectly. Their philosophy operates around the premise that everything should be used to the maximum, that all factors should be taken into account. Their reputation and success speaks for itself.

 

Still, to stop this needlessly going in circles again, you believe the information available is insufficient, I do not. Agree to disagree. I would sincerely suggest reading the FW black books in order to validate any comparison, as I don't think the novels are the best kind of material when it comes to these kinds of discussions. Anything based off the novels is by its very nature, conjecture - at least to a lesser degree than working off FW's pseudo-history.

 

If you pm me, I'm happy to give you access to some of these materials, as I've done for others on this forum - not to change your opinion, but to give you access to the same information.

[b1soul]

Poor phrasing does not = misreading.

If you say so...neither here nor there now that I've clarified for your benefit

 

As for quotes, read Betrayal, and then compare the EC with the other Legions. It sounds like you are just going off the novels. The EC planning to the extreme over and above what the Ultramarines do is not opinion, it is fact. There is a difference between choreography and a flexible battle plan.

The fundamental point we're debating here is relative efficiency between legions.

 

Choreo is not necessarily more efficient than the 30K UM's application of the Codex. Choreo has its benefits...it has its weaknesses.

 

As entertaining as it is to see you needlessly convolute a simple premise, as I said above, there is no overall efficiency. There isn't an average efficiency, either. Efficiency is in the eyes of the beholder, it is contextual.

My dear boy...efficiency is certainly something that can be defined and quantified. I find what you're suggesting rather hilarious. You either don't fully grasp what I've said or you do but you've already boxed yourself into your flawed position and won't give up.

 

Would a quantification of efficiency be a "flawless" metric? No...but the more data available, the more insightful the metric.

 

Context is important, yes...but you're using it as a fall-back to defend less-than-rigourous reasoning.

 

I would agree that "absolute efficiency", i.e. "my definition of efficiency is right and all others are wrong", does not exist. Efficiency could be defined in different ways, either mathematically or verbally. In that sense, efficiency is subjective.

 

...but if you're going to claim that the EC are the most efficient, you better have a sensible definition.

 

The Sons of Horus, like I said, were considered the greatest because their own particular form of warfare suited the needs of the age. They conquered brutally and quickly, moving the Great Crusade along at a breakneck pace.

SoH had a tremendous reputation in large part because their primarch, closest to the Emp, had been leading them from a very early stage.

 

You can't come up with a mean formula, as that would require you to rank various factors against each other, when there are contextual factors to take into account here.

Of course you could come up with a mean formula to measure battlefield efficiency (or even several mean formulas for the sake of comparison). Just because you would have to weigh the factors, doesn't mean the formula would be useless. Statisticians/mathematicians do this type of thing.

 

Note that different formulas might yield different rankings...but that's OK. You would at least have something to compare and analyse.

 

Of course, the hardest part would be obtaining the data.

 

We have been talking about efficiency on the battlefield. The Emperor's Children are a Legion known for choreographed, set piece engagements where everything is designed to go perfectly. Their philosophy operates around the premise that everything should be used to the maximum, that all factors should be taken into account. Their reputation and success speaks for itself.

EC are the most choreography-focused legion, sure

 

If you're defining "efficiency" in that manner, I guess they're efficient.

 

If you're going to define efficiency solely based on historical death to kill ratio throughout the GC (which I think is oversimplistic), I suppose the EC might rank very low (which would be good) though I don't think we could definitively state that they'd rank the lowest.

 

Still, to stop this needlessly going in circles again, you believe the information available is insufficient, I do not. Agree to disagree.

We could approach from a different angle. This is all fiction. Does FW intend to portray the EC as the most "efficient" legion. Does FW's define "efficiency" or a similar concept? I don't believe FW does either.

 

I may express myself in strong terms, hope you don't get mad.

 

---------------------------

 

A few basic points:

 

1. If we're discussing which legion is more efficient, we should at least establish a definition amenable to comparison.

 

2. If we cannot and everything is just contextual, a meaningful ranking would be all but impossible.

 

3. We could also examine FW's intentions. Are they trying to portray the EC as "most efficient" or something along those lines. This would be open to textual interpretation and there would be less of a need to gather data points from FW campaign descriptions and BL stories.

 

I'll re-read the EC's section in Betrayal. As a point of comparison, I'll re-read the UM's section in Tempest.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Of course you could come up with a mean formula to measure battlefield efficiency (or even several mean formulas for the sake of comparison). Just because you would have to weigh the factors, doesn't mean the formula would be useless. Statisticians/mathematicians do this type of thing.

 

Note that different formulas might yield different rankings...but that's OK. You would at least have something to compare and analyse.

 

Of course, the hardest part would be obtaining the data.

 

I'm a military historian, and while I normally wouldn't bring that up, it's perfectly applicable here given the dearth of actual data. This is something I know quite a bit about. You could not be further from the truth. Mathematical rules are not applicable everywhere, and contextually coming to conclusions like this has a lot of similarities to classical interpretations of source material. By making a formula, you are drawing conclusions about which factors weigh more heavily than others from your own, modern, bias. If that doesn't make sense, Mr 'I find what you're suggesting hilarious,' then I don't know what does.

 

 

My dear boy...efficiency is certainly something that can be defined and quantified. I find what you're suggesting rather hilarious. You either don't fully grasp what I've said or you do but you've already boxed yourself into your flawed position and won't give up.

 

Would a quantification of efficiency be a "flawless" metric? No...but the more data available, the more insightful the metric.

 

Context is important, yes...but you're using it as a fall-back to defend less-than-rigourous reasoning.

 

 

My dear boy? You're hilariously dense. Efficiency, when talking about fictional space forces, is definitely contextual. I even gave an example of how different people could view different methodologies as efficient, because it's a matter of priorities. Choreographed engagements focusing on maintaining a force intact, aiming for perfect victories with as few losses as possible, quantifies as the most efficient to me. However, I should have learned not to bother talking to you after your 'definition of perfect' and 'Archamus is dense' moment in Praetorian of Dorn/White Scars being the best swordsman/making up quotes to make your points look better. I'll happily leave you to it in order to avoid derailing this thread further.

[WarriorFish]

Let's not ruin a good and civilised discussion - agree to disagree and move please. Thanks.

[bluntblade]

Argy-bargy aside, interesting points. I particularly like the description of EC planning as choreography.

[Azorius]

I think the White Scars and the Raven Guard go hand-in-hand: specialists whose preferred facet of warfare is suitable (and more often, advantageous) given the realities of warfare in the 30th and 31st Millennia. With that in mind, I think they are both more capable than the more straight-forward, less-tactically minded legions out there. Given numerically equal forces with access to appropriate equipment for a force their size, and all else being equal, I see both as outperforming the Space Wolves, Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, Word Bearers, and Salamanders. I think they'd have a decent chance against the Blood Angels.

 

That having been said, I struggle to see either legion doing as well in situations that don't suit their preferred mode, however, or in finding the best answers to deal with them.

Um...I have always perceived BA is one of the 'best' Legion - extremely powerful, both individually and group-wise and equally versatile, and capable of inflicting disproportional casualties against any foe. The Ninth and its Primarch is also great at tactics, strategy, logistics and leadership quality. 

 

And in any case, the Blood Angels are always considered as one of 'top-performance' paragon Legion by contemporaries(including its peers as well as wider Imperium) and the Great Crusade heaps honour upon honour on them.

 

I can't see why you deem it is somehow 'lesser' than DA, EC, UM or SoH. 

[Loesh]

I mean, Sanguinus was a great Primarch no doubt.But Roboute could effortlessly write a book, manage an entire planets economic resources, and micro-manage a war on another planet simultaneously.

 

Probably while blindfolded. 

[Phoebus]

Azorius,

 

Everything that follows, just as every post I wrote earlier, reflects my personal opinions, which were informed by what I've read (primarily in the Forge World Horus Heresy series; and in Black Library novels).

 

To begin with, most legions were great at tactics, strategy, logistics, and leadership. That's kind of the baseline for the Legiones Astartes; conducting war at a superhuman level.

 

Beyond that, while I personally think the Blood Angels' martial theme is stirring, I tend to rate legions who operated as "specialists" beneath those that operated as a balanced force. That is to say, the Blood Angels were always going to make war in the matter that favored them: as a shock force whose tip of the spear were airborne, jump pack-equipped troops. By contrast, the three legions I mentioned were ones that would look first to the battlefield, its conditions, and their opponent, and field the optimal force to face it. They were balanced enough in their doctrine and composition to do this. To be fair to the Sons of Horus, they, too, were capable of this, but - subjective opinion follows - I think their ruthlessness made them a more straightforward force than the I, III, and XIII Legions.

 

As for how the Blood Angels were seen by the Imperium during the Great Crusade? I'll confess, you have me at a disadvantage. Best as I can recall, older lore alternately named the Sons of Horus, the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels, and the Ultramarines as the most celebrated legions - or, at any rate, as the ones with the most conquests. More recent lore, from the Horus Heresy series, points more to the Sons of Horus and the Imperial Fists, with the Space Wolves becoming more infamous (as purported "Executioners"), the Ultramarines being more famous for their grand realm, and the Dark Angels going from pre-eminent to relative obscurity (though their Forge World book may change that). Sanguinius's reputation has certainly been raised since Horus Rising (and other novels, besides), but I don't recall his Blood Angels being held in the same estimation as those legions I named.

[WarriorFish]

This is not discussion about Path of Heaven. Please stay on topic or posts will be removed without notice. Thanks.

[Loesh]

I'm actually interested in it though.

 

Perhaps we should make a separate thread about it?

[bluntblade]

Yeah, please do.

 

I wonder if Mortarion actually notices the degradation of his ship beyond other fleet interiors being painfully bright. Also, is it merely foreshadowing what's to come, or is Nurgle's taint already taking hold?

[HeritorA]

Yeah, please do.

 

I wonder if Mortarion actually notices the degradation of his ship beyond other fleet interiors being painfully bright. Also, is it merely foreshadowing what's to come, or is Nurgle's taint already taking hold?

Yes he did. Nurgle taint (in my humble opinion) was always with Morti, right from the start. And Typhon with his ambitions was simply a precursor for the road ahead. And culmination point to close the circle. 

Morti was tainted by Nurgle since Barbarus, since war against Overlords and probably even before that he was marked in his cradle by Grandpa Nurgle.

Emperor denying him his revenge only lead to enmity and hate, which later blossomed into - well you know how it would happen :)

[bluntblade]

Somehow it took me all this time to appreciate that Torghun's become a truly fearsome warrior by PoH. He kills Terminators on the bridge of the Swordstorm, and judging by Mortarion's "hard to kill" thoughts, he survived beyond the usual, borderline comic duration of a Space Marine fighting a Primarch. Then you realise that if not for his mistake with the lodges, Torghun could well have been one of the Legion's greats.

[b1soul]

Yeah...he is tragic figure

 

Unable to reach his life's goal of joining the XVIth (either through recruitment or allegiance) but ultimately accepting his fate as a WS.

 

In his last moments, he was a laughing killer.

 

He and Shiban both represent what could have been

[Biscuittzz]

 

It would be really interesting if Dorn would try to explain to Corax and Russ that their little games where a waste of time while the culmination of the conflict happened while them and their legions were most needed on  terran walls.

 

 

'Games'? Maybe to the viewpoint of other legions. Remember that in Deliverance Lost that both Dorn and Corax agree that a Raven Guard upon a rampart is not equivalent to a Fist in the same situation. Just as a Fist is not equivalent to a Raven Guard in the rear echelons of Horus' impending advance causing havoc. Likewise with the Wolves out on the offensive.

 

While it may be minuscule to you, don't forget that the battleships destroyed by a handful of RG at Kapel-5642A and numerous other places were that many less warships bearing down on Terra.

 

Do you think the Fists would have had as much time to implement the defences of Terra and the Sol system if it wasn't for the RG/SW and shattered legions being constant thorns in Horus' side? And thus causing him to divert forces that would otherwise have been at the siege.

 

Lastly, and one of the main things most forgotten throughout the HH, are the worlds abandoned to the deprivations of the advancing traitor legions and their allies as the loyalist retreated to Terra. One legion didn't forget their plight, a legion freed from shackles themselves. But only little games right?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

It would be really interesting if Dorn would try to explain to Corax and Russ that their little games where a waste of time while the culmination of the conflict happened while them and their legions were most needed on  terran walls.

 

 

'Games'? Maybe to the viewpoint of other legions. Remember that in Deliverance Lost that both Dorn and Corax agree that a Raven Guard upon a rampart is not equivalent to a Fist in the same situation. Just as a Fist is not equivalent to a Raven Guard in the rear echelons of Horus' impending advance causing havoc. Likewise with the Wolves out on the offensive.

 

While it may be minuscule to you, don't forget that the battleships destroyed by a handful of RG at Kapel-5642A and numerous other places were that many less warships bearing down on Terra.

 

Do you think the Fists would have had as much time to implement the defences of Terra and the Sol system if it wasn't for the RG/SW and shattered legions being constant thorns in Horus' side? And thus causing him to divert forces that would otherwise have been at the siege.

 

Lastly, and one of the main things most forgotten throughout the HH, are the worlds abandoned to the deprivations of the advancing traitor legions and their allies as the loyalist retreated to Terra. One legion didn't forget their plight, a legion freed from shackles themselves. But only little games right?

 

 

QFT.

[Jareddm]

Lastly, and one of the main things most forgotten throughout the HH, are the worlds abandoned to the deprivations of the advancing traitor legions and their allies as the loyalist retreated to Terra. One legion didn't forget their plight, a legion freed from shackles themselves.

The Ultramarines?

[b1soul]

While it may be minuscule to you, don't forget that the battleships destroyed by a handful of RG at Kapel-5642A and numerous other places were that many less warships bearing down on Terra.

 

Do you think the Fists would have had as much time to implement the defences of Terra and the Sol system if it wasn't for the RG/SW and shattered legions being constant thorns in Horus' side? And thus causing him to divert forces that would otherwise have been at the siege.

 

Lastly, and one of the main things most forgotten throughout the HH, are the worlds abandoned to the deprivations of the advancing traitor legions and their allies as the loyalist retreated to Terra. One legion didn't forget their plight, a legion freed from shackles themselves. But only little games right?

I'm not surprised some posters might think that the RG/Shattered Legions guerilla campaign was merely a minor distraction to the Traitors

 

I've encountered the argument that the entire Vth legion was merely a mild annoyance to the Traitor advance post-Scars

 

Some seek to minimise the contributions of loyalist forces who waged a desperate war of strike-and-fade away from Terra...but as you point out, who is to say the defense of Terra did not benefit significantly from such efforts, e.g. more time to fortify and fewer attackers invading Sol

[bluntblade]

If Horus says you're worth deploying an entire Legion and the third of another to stamp you out, when there are a hundred worlds which urgently need breaking open before he can assault Terra, you're causing him problems.

[b1soul]

I think almost everyone played their part to bleed the Traitors...

 

1. The Shattered Legions were a constant nuisance to Horus...and when they pulled off guerilla victories against high-value targets (e.g. under the leadership of Corax or Meduson), they were more than a nuisance. They were a legit threat to Horus' plans, even moreso when couples with the likes of the Sagyar Mazan or Black Shields hostile to the Traitors

 

2. While I'm not sure about the details of the SW offensive against Horus, I doubt the SW failed to do any significant damage before being cornered at Yarant (I hope they flesh out the SW's post-Terra, pre-Yarant efforts a bit more)

 

...and let's not forget that Corax saved Russ at Yarant

 

3. The Khan's efforts were similar to Corax's...except the Khan had most of a legion with which to prosecute his campaign.

 

After Istvaan, the depleted SoH, EC, and DG did not want an intact loyalist legion constantly stabbing them in the back and bleeding their strength/disrupting their supply lines as they advanced toward Terra

 

4. The Ultramarines cost the WB and WE dearly throughout the Shadow Crusade

 

5. The DA broke/severely weakned the NL fleet...and the Lion almost kills Curze twice. I'm guessing Curze does not make it to Terra.

 

6. Can't blame the BA for being waylaid on Signus...but they make it to Terra in time

 

7. The Fists of course are primarily responsible for Terra's defense

 

...I admit the Salamanders seem to have been taken out of the action, but I think there were a fair number of Sallies who linked up with Meduson

[HeritorA]

Somehow it took me all this time to appreciate that Torghun's become a truly fearsome warrior by PoH. He kills Terminators on the bridge of the Swordstorm, and judging by Mortarion's "hard to kill" thoughts, he survived beyond the usual, borderline comic duration of a Space Marine fighting a Primarch. Then you realise that if not for his mistake with the lodges, Torghun could well have been one of the Legion's greats.

He killed only one Deathshroud. Wraight does not show you Torghun as a comic hero. He show only their surprise attack.

Yeah...he is tragic figure

Unable to reach his life's goal of joining the XVIth (either through recruitment or allegiance) but ultimately accepting his fate as a WS.

In his last moments, he was a laughing killer.

He and Shiban both represent what could have been

But they swaped places. Shiban became the one not laughing anymore. True grim WS of W40K. Torghun instead get the freedom he was striving for in the end.

Lastly, and one of the main things most forgotten throughout the HH, are the worlds abandoned to the deprivations of the advancing traitor legions and their allies as the loyalist retreated to Terra. One legion didn't forget their plight, a legion freed from shackles themselves.

The Ultramarines?

Lol - that was funny. LOL. Ultrasmurfs - ahahahaha

I think almost everyone played their part to bleed the Traitors...

1. The Shattered Legions were a constant nuisance to Horus...and when they pulled off guerilla victories against high-value targets (e.g. under the leadership of Corax or Meduson), they were more than a nuisance. They were a legit threat to Horus' plans, even moreso when couples with the likes of the Sagyar Mazan or Black Shields hostile to the Traitors

2. While I'm not sure about the details of the SW offensive against Horus, I doubt the SW failed to do any significant damage before being cornered at Yarant (I hope they flesh out the SW's post-Terra, pre-Yarant efforts a bit more)

...and let's not forget that Corax saved Russ at Yarant

3. The Khan's efforts were similar to Corax's...except the Khan had most of a legion with which to prosecute his campaign.

After Istvaan, the depleted SoH, EC, and DG did not want an intact loyalist legion constantly stabbing them in the back and bleeding their strength/disrupting their supply lines as they advanced toward Terra

4. The Ultramarines cost the WB and WE dearly throughout the Shadow Crusade

5. The DA broke/severely weakned the NL fleet...and the Lion almost kills Curze twice. I'm guessing Curze does not make it to Terra.

6. Can't blame the BA for being waylaid on Signus...but they make it to Terra in time

7. The Fists of course are primarily responsible for Terra's defense

...I admit the Salamanders seem to have been taken out of the action, but I think there were a fair number of Sallies who linked up with Meduson

1. Not so big as they hoped for.

2. Yarant was a culmination of SW failure to attack Horus.

3. Khan has done much more than all SL combined. He fully blocked 2/3 of the EC and Death Guard forces.

4. WB and WE were sent - cause nobody needed them. They are rabble.

5. NL was thrashed for good - but still was able to provide more then 20k SM for the Siege of Terra as a separate warbands.

6. And that's we will see only in 'Ruinstorm' at last.

7. In which they failed twice - even before Horus.

Sadly Salamanders would be back with another Kyme 'masterpiece' Old Earth this year... And sadly a splendid conflict Marr vs Meduson started with Abnett would be finished with Kyme

[HeritorA]

I think almost everyone played their part to bleed the Traitors...

1. The Shattered Legions were a constant nuisance to Horus...and when they pulled off guerilla victories against high-value targets (e.g. under the leadership of Corax or Meduson), they were more than a nuisance. They were a legit threat to Horus' plans, even moreso when couples with the likes of the Sagyar Mazan or Black Shields hostile to the Traitors

2. While I'm not sure about the details of the SW offensive against Horus, I doubt the SW failed to do any significant damage before being cornered at Yarant (I hope they flesh out the SW's post-Terra, pre-Yarant efforts a bit more)

...and let's not forget that Corax saved Russ at Yarant

3. The Khan's efforts were similar to Corax's...except the Khan had most of a legion with which to prosecute his campaign.

After Istvaan, the depleted SoH, EC, and DG did not want an intact loyalist legion constantly stabbing them in the back and bleeding their strength/disrupting their supply lines as they advanced toward Terra

4. The Ultramarines cost the WB and WE dearly throughout the Shadow Crusade

5. The DA broke/severely weakned the NL fleet...and the Lion almost kills Curze twice. I'm guessing Curze does not make it to Terra.

6. Can't blame the BA for being waylaid on Signus...but they make it to Terra in time

7. The Fists of course are primarily responsible for Terra's defense

...I admit the Salamanders seem to have been taken out of the action, but I think there were a fair number of Sallies who linked up with Meduson

1. SL was a little bit of setback nothing more.

2. Yarant and Wolf Cull a total failure for Russ and victory for Horus.

3.Probably the biggest pain in the ass for Horus - it's took DG Legion and half of EC to fight them off.

4. Horus doesnt count on them at all - for him they were rubble.

5. Still 20-30k NL as a separate bands took part at Siege of Terra.

6. 'Ruinstorm' will show that for us at last.

7.In which they failed twice before Horus arrival.

8. Salamanders sadly not finished - Kyme will give us another horrible book 'Old Earth' this year. Sadly it's Kyme and not Abnett who will finish Meduson vs Marr battle

[Angel_of_Blood]

Somehow it took me all this time to appreciate that Torghun's become a truly fearsome warrior by PoH. He kills Terminators on the bridge of the Swordstorm, and judging by Mortarion's "hard to kill" thoughts, he survived beyond the usual, borderline comic duration of a Space Marine fighting a Primarch. Then you realise that if not for his mistake with the lodges, Torghun could well have been one of the Legion's greats.

 

Torghuns development was one of my favourite parts of PoH. Just that part, where in his final moments, he is finally laughing. He at that point so clearly gets what it is to be a White Scar, and fully embraces it. He knows he's going to die. He knows he isn't going to kill Mortarion. But he relishes the opportunity to try, he happily becomes the bait, to take the place of the Primarch he never wanted to serve to begin with, and is willing to die for him.

 

Just that moment

"Hail Lord of Death! Torghun Khan greets you!"

"Why, my lord?" The khan laughed, poised for the coming strike. "Atonement. At last."

 

It's right up there in my favourite moments of the series. And one of the most finely written deaths.

[bluntblade]

It's strange how it's gone from seeming rushed to being one of my favourite moments.

 

As far as the Wolves go, I hope they get to do some serious damage, even as Russ' drive to face Horus interferes with his judgement.

[Angel_of_Blood]

I fell in love with that moment as soon as precisely 132 power weapons ignited, and I realised the Sagyar Mazan, had all been granted a glorious last stand and reclaim their honour and place amongst the legion.

 

The united shout of 'Khagan!' Was fittingly epic as well.