Karack Blackstone Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Hello. Quote bomb for the reworked list Slipstreams came up with, and it's a pretty solid to test list it looks like: Aptitudes Available: Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Agility, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower,Fellowship, Offence, Finesse, Defence, Psyker, Tech, Knowledge, Leadership, Fieldcraft, Social For Standard Aptitudes an Astartes should have, I feel that: Weapon Skill Ballistic Skill Strength OR Toughness Willpower OR Intelligence Would be the Baseline Aptitudes I'd give to Astartes that I'd shoot for. Now, For Specialities: Tactical: Leadership Social Fellowship Assault: Finesse Agility Offence Devastator: Perception Finesse Defence OR Offence Apothecary: Intelligence Fieldcraft Perception Librarian: Pskyer Knowledge Willpower Techmarine: Tech Intelligence Toughness Next up, Chapters (pick 2?). I've tried to make sure there is the least amount of overlap between the 3 Aptitudes a Speciality Gives and the 2 Choices presented by the Parent Chapter. Dark Angels: Perception Knowledge Offence Defence White Scars: Agility Finesse Offence Willpower Space Wolves: Fieldcraft Offence Strength Perception Imperial Fists: Toughness Defence Fieldcraft Offence Blood Angels: Willpower Agility Fellowship Intelligence Iron Hands: Toughness Tech Knowledge Intelligence Ultramarines: Leadership Fellowship Perception Intelligence Salamanders: Fellowship Knowledge Defence Toughness Raven Guard: Agility Finesse Perception Fieldcraft All Told, thats a total of 9 Possible Aptitudes. It might be a lot but we're also dealing with Space Marines. It also lines up with your Initial total of 9 Aptitudes but does not give the Players Choice of a 10th. The Chapters themselves I tried to play to their "Stereotype" while also trying to avoid 2 Chapters having 100% the same Aptitudes up for grabs. I'll think more on Skills and Talents as I'm not entirely sure what I want out of that just yet. Character sheet link for Only War, the base system this conversion is going to use: http://www.daemonstorm.com/article/2013/04/14/only-war-character-sheetsFor +5 purposes for XP spent:One +5 of player choice to placeTwo +5's for Chapter benefits (already mentioned in DW 1E book)Further +5's will be earned every 10,000 XP. Name, Tier, Aptitude 1, Aptitude 2 Abhor the witch 2 Willpower Defense Astartes weapon training (Included Base) Astartes weapon specialization 3 Offense Ballistic Skill/ Weapon Skill Bolter drill 2 Finesse Ballistic Skill Call to Vengence 2 Fellowship Willpower Death from above 2 Agility Finesse Deathwatch training (Included Base) Eye of vengence 3 Knowledge Ballistic Skill Flesh Render 1 Offense Melee Skill Hammer blow 2 Strength Offense Killing strike 3 Willpower Offense Signature Wargear 1 Fellowship leadership Signature Wargear (master) 2 Fellowship leadership Signature Wargear (hero) 3 Fellowship leadership Stalwart defense 1 Intelligence Defense Storm of Iron 1 Offense Ballistic Skill Thunder Charge 2 Strength Agility Unbowed and Unbroken 2 Fellowship leadership Weapon-tech 3 Intelligence Tech Wisdom of the Ancients 2 Intelligence Knowledge Trained Skills Awareness Ciphers (chapter runes) Climb Common Lore (Adeptus Astartes, Deathwatch, Imperium and War) Concealment Drive (ground vehicles) Forbidden Lore (xenos) Literacy Navigation (surface) Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes) Silent move Speak (Low Gothic, High Gothic) Tracking Basic Skills Barter Carouse Charm Command Contortionist Decieve Disguise Dodge Evaluate Gamble Inquiry Intimidate Logic Scruitiny Search Swim Talents:Ambidextrous,Bulging Biceps,Heightened Senses (Hearing, Sight),Killing Strike,Nerves of Steel,Quick Draw,Resistance (Psychic Powers),True GritUnarmed WarriorTraits:Unnatural Strength x 2 / + 4,Unnatural Toughness x 2 / + 4 --- Thoughts? Edit: Changed out to the "proper" list of stuff, including things that are pregenerated per each Astartes; all of this can and will change as needed, seeing as this is a literal work in progress still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 The danger I see with this is that unlike acolytes or rogue trader crews which are by their nature quite varied and better represented by classless or starting package based characters, space marines are much more rigid in how they operate and thus are better represented by their current system of having choices based on their chapter, class and being part of the deathwatch. That being said, I fully support a more updated system using improvements in the ruleset to fix things like full-auto. And ideally do something with the confusing mess that solo and squad modes are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 The danger I see with this is that unlike acolytes or rogue trader crews which are by their nature quite varied and better represented by classless or starting package based characters, space marines are much more rigid in how they operate and thus are better represented by their current system of having choices based on their chapter, class and being part of the deathwatch. That being said, I fully support a more updated system using improvements in the ruleset to fix things like full-auto. And ideally do something with the confusing mess that solo and squad modes are. While I agree that this has the potential to blow up in my face, there is the very real likelihood that someone important will see it and at least know what to do, or not to do, as the case may be. That said as well, updating and modernizing the improvements such as house ruling things like FA being the newer variant and limited to six shots per weapon to stop wasting ammo might truly help. As far as solo and squad mode, I'll have to think on that somehwat; not sure how I truly feel about it right now, and what thoughts will lead where as of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Now that you have updated things it is a bit clearer where you are going with things. Will you take the aptitudes that affect xp cost for each skill and talent from only war? What about talents that are deathwatch specific? Is the list of all aptitudes the same as only war? I am confused by what you are talking about with the +5? I know you are talking about stat improvements but otherwise I don't understand that section. For unnatural abilities I think numbers are better than multiples. That way you can let people purchase more unnatural toughness or strength without completely breaking the game or have some chapters modify the + again without breaking the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 Now that you have updated things it is a bit clearer where you are going with things. Will you take the aptitudes that affect xp cost for each skill and talent from only war? What about talents that are deathwatch specific? Is the list of all aptitudes the same as only war? I am confused by what you are talking about with the +5? I know you are talking about stat improvements but otherwise I don't understand that section. For unnatural abilities I think numbers are better than multiples. That way you can let people purchase more unnatural toughness or strength without completely breaking the game or have some chapters modify the + again without breaking the game. In Only War, players receive a +5 or a career change for every 2,500 xp they earn; for Astartes, it's pretty seriously busted and flat out stupid how ludicrous the stats can get with such a fast set of bonuses as they advance. Each Chapter receives a base of two +5 % to any two fixed or choice of two stats; these additional +5's come from OW itself and the aforementioned line about a single +5 % per 2,500 xp earned. This is on top of the +5, +10, +15, and +20 stat advances allowed to each stat. one +5 per every 10,000 xp might be too strict; that's something that I have to figure out over time. As to your first question, yes, this is OW with a Deathwatch overlay and rules priority. As to the x 2 or + 4: I love as a player the x 2, however, as you well say, that's pretty busted too. For the time being, it's going to be the + 4, subject to the fact that some Chapters may have or I will homebrew a + 1 Unnatural Strength or + 1 Unnatural Toughness as needed. The entire idea here is to have as many fresh minds weigh in on this as are willing and to see what filters out as the result. Distilling lines of thinking that don't translate aren't great signs of communication, nor clear rules writing. That said, I'm sorry for not being clearer before; as of now, however, there should be a much clearer set of criteria in the OP as to what the idea is: a new set of Aptitudes that allow for the generic Space Marine, and then bring the individuals that go through the various training regimens to life on paper, as it were. Edit: I would assume that the talents from DW can be readily translated into aptitude dependent tiered ones; that said, I know it's not clear yet, so, I'll try and figure something out as far as a translation guide goes here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Sorry, for clarity's sake - do you intend to run a game using this, or are you seeking to work on the rules system collaboratively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 Sorry, for clarity's sake - do you intend to run a game using this, or are you seeking to work on the rules system collaboratively? Both: this is both to make a new RPG system that will need some collaborative work to pull off, and there's a thread I have made, that references this post as the OOC game and rules design area for said thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 OK. So we know where things stand. If it was just games design, I was going to offer to move it to the general Other Games or the Homegrown Rules sections since that's where it would belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 Update: as there is now interest in where this can go, please feel free to stop by with ideas, from both player and GM perspective herein. There's going to be some pretty broad and major changes, likely; that's going to be needed, and I will need to review the full range of aptitudes for clarity's sake. DW Only War style is going to take a little bit to fully sort out; that said, anything DW only as far as Talents go should incline themselves towards Tier 1 through 3 levels of bonus. That is what will be guiding the XP costs for right now, unless otherwise is found to be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Do you have a Google docs or something with all the changes you are looking at? What can others do to help at this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Do you have a Google docs or something with all the changes you are looking at? What can others do to help at this time? The above is all I have; thus the issue. The problem is figuring out what all the Chapter Aptitudes should be, as far as choose two of a selection of three. This just needs to be done; that's being overridden right now by my time with the below... The other, more time consuming question is if WS, BS, Offense, Defense, and Toughness is a fair set of Aptitudes for all Astartes to have. If I may please ask someone to try and hammer out a fair set of Aptitude sets per the above paragraph, two to pick from a group of three, that'd be great; that would also free me to look at the core Aptitude set, which I think needs to be done to actually allow some freedom for character development, and might shift some things around, which I will provide notice of and alter the OP with, once done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I'll try and hash out a list of potential Aptitudes for the first founding chatpers when I get home later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 I'll try and hash out a list of potential Aptitudes for the first founding chatpers when I get home later. I will try to put something together as well. Then we can cross reference and see if they look similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Do you have a Google docs or something with all the changes you are looking at? What can others do to help at this time? The above is all I have; thus the issue. The problem is figuring out what all the Chapter Aptitudes should be, as far as choose two of a selection of three. This just needs to be done; that's being overridden right now by my time with the below... The other, more time consuming question is if WS, BS, Offense, Defense, and Toughness is a fair set of Aptitudes for all Astartes to have. If I may please ask someone to try and hammer out a fair set of Aptitude sets per the above paragraph, two to pick from a group of three, that'd be great; that would also free me to look at the core Aptitude set, which I think needs to be done to actually allow some freedom for character development, and might shift some things around, which I will provide notice of and alter the OP with, once done. How many total aptitudes do you want astartes to have? That will tell you how many all should get if your "class" and chapter also give you some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Aptitudes Available: Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Agility, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower, Fellowship, Offence, Finesse, Defence, Psyker, Tech, Knowledge, Leadership, Fieldcraft, Social For Standard Aptitudes an Astartes should have, I feel that: Weapon Skill Ballistic Skill Strength OR Toughness Willpower OR Intelligence Would be the Baseline Aptitudes I'd give to Astartes that I'd shoot for. Now, For Specialities: Tactical: Leadership Social Fellowship Assault: Finesse Agility Offence Devastator: Perception Finesse Defence OR Offence Apothecary: Intelligence Fieldcraft Perception Librarian: Pskyer Knowledge Willpower Techmarine: Tech Intelligence Toughness Next up, Chapters (pick 2?). I've tried to make sure there is the least amount of overlap between the 3 Aptitudes a Speciality Gives and the 2 Choices presented by the Parent Chapter. Dark Angels: Perception Knowledge Offence Defence White Scars: Agility Finesse Offence Willpower Space Wolves: Fieldcraft Offence Strength Perception Imperial Fists: Toughness Defence Fieldcraft Offence Blood Angels: Willpower Agility Fellowship Intelligence Iron Hands: Toughness Tech Knowledge Intelligence Ultramarines: Leadership Fellowship Perception Intelligence Salamanders: Fellowship Knowledge Defence Toughness Raven Guard: Agility Finesse Perception Fieldcraft All Told, thats a total of 9 Possible Aptitudes. It might be a lot but we're also dealing with Space Marines. It also lines up with your Initial total of 9 Aptitudes but does not give the Players Choice of a 10th. The Chapters themselves I tried to play to their "Stereotype" while also trying to avoid 2 Chapters having 100% the same Aptitudes up for grabs. I'll think more on Skills and Talents as I'm not entirely sure what I want out of that just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 I didn't do classes. But for the first foundings I have the following. Assuming all marines get WS, BS, Offense, Defense, and Toughness Iron HandsWillpowerIntelligenceTech UltramarinesSocialLeadershipKnowledge Imperial FistsIntelligencePerceptionWillpower SalamandersFellowshipStrengthTech Raven guardFinessFieldcraftAgility White ScarsAgilityPerceptionFieldcraft Blood AngelsAgilityFinessleadership Dark AngelsKnowledgePsykerPerception Space WolvesPerceptionFellowshipStrength Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Hmmm Surprisingly Similar hah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 With your list of starting aptitudes, I would definitely change some options for some chapters. The aptitudes work really well for some chapters, others only 1 or 2 seem super important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 With your list of starting aptitudes, I would definitely change some options for some chapters. The aptitudes work really well for some chapters, others only 1 or 2 seem super important. Yeah, I'll look into it more when I have the time. I made them pretty much independently of one another so there is an obvious lack of synergy for a few of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Aptitudes Available: Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Agility, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower,Fellowship, Offence, Finesse, Defence, Psyker, Tech, Knowledge, Leadership, Fieldcraft, Social For Standard Aptitudes an Astartes should have, I feel that: Weapon Skill Ballistic Skill Strength OR Toughness Willpower OR Intelligence Would be the Baseline Aptitudes I'd give to Astartes that I'd shoot for. Now, For Specialities: Tactical: Leadership Social Fellowship Assault: Finesse Agility Offence Devastator: Perception Finesse Defence OR Offence Apothecary: Intelligence Fieldcraft Perception Librarian: Pskyer Knowledge Willpower Techmarine: Tech Intelligence Toughness Next up, Chapters (pick 2?). I've tried to make sure there is the least amount of overlap between the 3 Aptitudes a Speciality Gives and the 2 Choices presented by the Parent Chapter. Dark Angels: Perception Knowledge Offence Defence White Scars: Agility Finesse Offence Willpower Space Wolves: Fieldcraft Offence Strength Perception Imperial Fists: Toughness Defence Fieldcraft Offence Blood Angels: Willpower Agility Fellowship Intelligence Iron Hands: Toughness Tech Knowledge Intelligence Ultramarines: Leadership Fellowship Perception Intelligence Salamanders: Fellowship Knowledge Defence Toughness Raven Guard: Agility Finesse Perception Fieldcraft All Told, thats a total of 9 Possible Aptitudes. It might be a lot but we're also dealing with Space Marines. It also lines up with your Initial total of 9 Aptitudes but does not give the Players Choice of a 10th. The Chapters themselves I tried to play to their "Stereotype" while also trying to avoid 2 Chapters having 100% the same Aptitudes up for grabs. I'll think more on Skills and Talents as I'm not entirely sure what I want out of that just yet. I didn't do classes. But for the first foundings I have the following. Assuming all marines get WS, BS, Offense, Defense, and Toughness Iron Hands Willpower Intelligence Tech Ultramarines Social Leadership Knowledge Imperial Fists Intelligence Perception Willpower Salamanders Fellowship Strength Tech Raven guard Finess Fieldcraft Agility White Scars Agility Perception Fieldcraft Blood Angels Agility Finess leadership Dark Angels Knowledge Psyker Perception Space Wolves Perception Fellowship Strength Slipstreams, Black Cohort, thank you both for this wonderful pair of works. I just want to say, the style of Slipstreams post is easy to read; that said, if some of the Aptitude choices can be tightened up better, then if it's alright I would be fine with brainstorming each set of info, and determine which is the more playable list. As far as the Chapter Aptitudes in both cases, I wonder if we can just mix and match from both, and go with the fluffy choices to start, and work from there. Further thoughts and input as always are welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 I would be fine with going with slipstreams entire list as is. We can make changes later if something seems off. do you still need someone to look at deathwatch specific talents and figure out which tier and what aptitudes they should have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 I would be fine with going with slipstreams entire list as is. We can make changes later if something seems off. do you still need someone to look at deathwatch specific talents and figure out which tier and what aptitudes they should have? Okay, and yes please; there's a pretty good layout of Aptitudes for most Chapters and the Codex compliant ones should be fine, as far as Slipstreams' list goes above. Again, yes: the talents in Deathwatch lend themselves to one interpretation in my mind, and that could be very different from another's. I'd love to have your input as well into this area. Edit: The Skills list in the OP of this thread, is a master list combining skills from Deathwatch and Black Crusade in the prior test run of this idea. Feedback, and a little book diving, might better reveal the ones that don't quite "fit" the Deathwatch standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 I will try to work on something after i get home from work tomorrow. Also are we wanting to mess with the whole cohesion/squad mode/ solo mode stuff? I have always found that to be a huge pain to work with for little gain. I get what they were trying to do, but there is so much bookkeeping for little return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 17, 2016 Share Posted May 17, 2016 I'll see about Cohesion and Squad Mode / Solo Mode. An "easy" fix to my mind would be: If the whole squad is within X meters of each other, they can use squad mode abilities. If they are <X meters of each other, they may use solo mode abilities. For Cohesion I don't have a real idea how to tackle it. I'd have to give it more thought since its not something that I've ever really seen come into play. +++ For Skills and Talents I'll try and populate an Excel Sheet and group them into relevant groupings/sections alongside their individual Aptitudes and link it to y'all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 started working on a google sheet for talents, didn't have as much time tonight as I hoped. It should be done tomorrow evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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