GM LFG: DW into DH 2nd Ed/OW Adaptation

[Boudan]

The Lamenters are essentially the same, chapter culture-speaking as the Blood Angels. Notable fluff includes their history of bad luck, valiant last stands and ill-advised participation in the Badab War. The chapter has significant experience fighting Chaos, Orks and Tyranids. Also, Space Marines.

[Karack Blackstone]

The Lamenters are essentially the same, chapter culture-speaking as the Blood Angels. Notable fluff includes their history of bad luck, valiant last stands and ill-advised participation in the Badab War. The chapter has significant experience fighting Chaos, Orks and Tyranids. Also, Space Marines.

 

Cool; that helps a bit.

 

We shall see where this goes overall.

[Black Cohort]

updated the google doc with all the talents that i missed the first time.  working on new costs for the psychic powers.

[Slips]

So, this came to mind:

 

Should we treat the Signature Wargear Talent Normally or make an exception for it? Or are the Renown limits good enough in this regard?

(Re-reading the Talent, I might've caught a mistake in regards to Scorpelio, Black Cohort ^_^; in that he doesn't fulfill the renown requirements to actually have a Plasma Gun as Signature Wargear yet haha!)

[Karack Blackstone]

So, this came to mind:

Should we treat the Signature Wargear Talent Normally or make an exception for it? Or are the Renown limits good enough in this regard?

(Re-reading the Talent, I might've caught a mistake in regards to Scorpelio, Black Cohort ; in that he doesn't fulfill the renown requirements to actually have a Plasma Gun as Signature Wargear yet haha!)

All the requirements should be met; that said, I think a Plasma Gun, if it is Restricted, might be a little too much right now.

I will however recommend the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, and will make an exception for that weapon. Thing saved my Grey Hunter Tactical Marine build so much time and effort getting Frag and Krak grenades downrange faster.

Edit:

The Astartes Weapon Training and Deathwatch Training are both Free to all Astartes, in the Google Doc.

What ideas are there on the Advanced Careers, such as Chaplain, Dreadnought, and others found throughout the books?

[Black Cohort]

Astartes weapon training and deathwatch training are free to all players in deathwatch, I just copied that over.

 

Slipstreams I am not going to back and make you get rid of it after two missions.

 

Do you think anything needs to change for the advanced careers? Or that they even need to be a thing with aptitudes and such the way they are now? The only thing I can think of is that you might want to have the option for people to get multiple signature wargear, otherwise someone who wants to be a chaplain can only really have a power maul as signature wargear.

[Karack Blackstone]

Astartes weapon training and deathwatch training are free to all players in deathwatch, I just copied that over.

 

Slipstreams I am not going to back and make you get rid of it after two missions.

 

Do you think anything needs to change for the advanced careers? Or that they even need to be a thing with aptitudes and such the way they are now? The only thing I can think of is that you might want to have the option for people to get multiple signature wargear, otherwise someone who wants to be a chaplain can only really have a power maul as signature wargear.

 

Fair point; the problem to me is just that without knowing fully yet, by trying different things, I think the Deathwatch Advanced Specialties are truly game changing, and instead of making things cheaper to buy for XP, maybe they could instead reduce the Talent Tier XP cost by one (1), for each talent that is taken?

 

Replacement Advanced Specialties like Wolf Scout would still be the same; however, for the standard XP costs each Advanced Specialty costs, it has to do something nice, and this seems a nice idea, or at least, get the idea ball rolling?

[Slips]

Maybe have aptitudes change with advanced specialities.

 

A Chaplain and Dreadnought dont have the same focuses as a tactical or apothecary marine outside of the basics, for example.

 

Dont forget that a Chaplain also gets the Skull Helm and a Rosarius as Standard Issue Wargear.

[Karack Blackstone]

Maybe have aptitudes change with advanced specialities.

 

A Chaplain and Dreadnought dont have the same focuses as a tactical or apothecary marine outside of the basics, for example.

 

Dont forget that a Chaplain also gets the Skull Helm and a Rosarius as Standard Issue Wargear.

 

In Only War, they do change Aptitudes, and should, in this as well.

 

Chaplain:

 

- Weapon Skill

- Offense

- Strength

- Toughness

- Fellowship

- Social

- Leadership

- (Chapter)

- (Chapter)

 

Any repeats means the player may choose any other Aptitude and receive it normally, per the Only War rules for Character Creation.

 

Thoughts?

[Slips]

Looks goot to me. Maybe have Willpower in there for the Chaplain? Dont know if thatw would benefit him in any way in terms of talents/skills though!

[Karack Blackstone]

Looks goot to me. Maybe have Willpower in there for the Chaplain? Dont know if thatw would benefit him in any way in terms of talents/skills though!

 

Hm...

 

Social or Willpower instead?

 

Time will show, especially if someone ever goes this route.

[Black Cohort]

Chaplains need both aptitudes for hatred and anything that uses hatred.

[Slips]

Good point! A Chaplain is nothing without Hate!

[Skinrider]

One thing about the available weapons FFG but in the books, perhaps not major, but that irritates me quite a lot. Their melee weapon options are a total MESS!

 

For power weapons they've got obscure stuff like Executioner's Axe, Power Claymore, Power Falchion (normally used by Gray Knights, right?). As well as Power Lance AND Power Spear ...but no Power Maul? One of the 7 power weapons in the actual Space Marine codex? One of the few power weapons that brings a "special rule" (concussive) and not just different damage stats. 

 

They only have 1 chain weapon "chainsword"! They have the Flesh Render talent for ...only that. Then the talent "Master of Blades" (from Rites of Battle pg. 93) lets you choose a category "Chain, Force or Power" weapons and choose 2 weapons from that... but there is only 1 chain weapon. No Eviscerator? It's in the Space Marine codex even! Chain Axe? I'd even put a Chain Glaive in there if they're putting a power Executioner's Axe! 

 

I've never played a psyker, but there are only 2 Force weapons ...why isn't there at least a Force Axe as well?

 

They've published too many books to ignore this

 

The biggest joke? They know these weapons exist AND they are in some books as Chapter Relics! There is a Flesh Tearer's Chapter Relic Eviscerator called "Memor Nihilis" and a Power Maul Hammers of Dorn Chapter Relic called "Weight of Duty", both in "Honour The Chapter"!! So they've even made stats for these weapons (and then modified them to make the Chapter Relics).

 

Karack, would you mind if I wrote stats for some more melee weapons? (based on the chapter relics or similar weapons) I'd put in my requisition suggestion, along with justification and comparison. If nothing else, the fact that there is only 1 chain weapons bugs the hell out of me.

[Black Cohort]

If I had options Irad would like a force spear, also they have stats for a power maul.  It is called a crozius, all it needs is a requisition cost.

[Slips]

Aye, A Crozius Arcanum is essentially a Power Maul but Fancied up for Chaplains. Remove the Bling and give it a Req Cost of 20 to go along with the other Power Weapons (Sword and Axe) and done.

 

A Chain Axe could be easily done but I dont think 40k Marines make much use of them. The Chaos Books might have stats for that.

 

An Evicerator could be a slightly weaker Chain Fist that isn't a Mounted weapon since, on the Table Top, its Identical statswise.

 

As for a Chainglaive, I'd be weary of adding that since the only ones we actually know of is the Nostraman Chainglaive which is Night Lords.

 

+++

 

The Power Falchion isn't Grey Knights Specific. What they have thats special is Nemesis Force Weapons which are essentially a mix of Power and Force Weapons. Hence Nemesis Force Falchions. It doesn't help, however, that they're the only marines with access to them alongside Nemesis Force Halberds.

 

+++

As it stands, if theres a Power Weapon version of something, you could easily turn it into a Force Weapon with some minor work.

 

For Example:

• Power Sword: 1d10+6E Pen 6 with Balanced and Power Field. REQ 20, Distinguished 
• Force Sword: 1d10+2R Pen 2 with Special (+1 Pen and Damage per level of Psi Rating). REQ 25, Distinguished.

So the Difference is: 4 Base Damage, 4 Pen.

 

Axes Could Therefore be:

• Power Axe: 1d10+8E Pen 7 Power Field and Unbalanced. REQ 20, Distinguished
• Force Axe: 1d10+4R Pen 3 with Special and Unbalanced. REQ 25, Distinguished

We could therefore apply the following "general" application for creating additional Force Weapons: -4 Base Damage, -4 Pen, +5 Req over Power Weapon Counterpart.

 

So, for example, Irads Force Spear:

• Power Spear: 1d10+6E Pen 7 Power Field. REQ 15, Distinguished.
• Force Spear: 1d10+2E Pen 3 Special. REQ 20, Distinguished.

If we're making Nemesis Force Weapons, just Slap on the "Special" Psyker Rule onto regular Power Weapons. So, for example, a Daemonhammer (Nemesis Thunderhammer) could be:

• 2d10+5E Pen 9 Power Field, Unwieldy, Concussive, Special (+1 Pen and Damage per Psy Rating). REQ 40, Famed.

So, if you had a Psy rating of 5, in combat its damage would be: 2d10+10E Pen 14 Power Field, Unwieldy, Concussive, Special. Before any other Close Combat Bonuses.

 

+++

 

A Chainfist is:

• 2d10 Tearing, Power Field, Unwieldy. REQ 40, Famed

An Evicerator could be:

• 2d10 Tearing, Unwieldy. REQ 30, Distinguished.

A Crozius Arcanum is:

• 1d10+7E Pen 7 Balanced, Power Field.

1 less base damage than a Power Axe but it has Balanced instead of Unbalanced with the same Pen. Obviously, a Regular Power Maul isn't that Powerful so lets say:

• 1d10+7E Pen 4 or 5 Balanced, Power Field.

Hits Harder than a Power Sword and just as hard as an Axe but without their levels of Armor Penetration since its still a blunt weapon. It is, however, more defensive than an axe.

 

This then gives the player the choice: Hard Hitting, Low Armor Penetration, Good Defenses (maul), Balanced (sword), Hard Hitting, High Armor Pen, Lower Defenses (Axe).

[Skinrider]

Angron also used a chain glaive, maybe it's more commonly called "chain halberd", there was a pic of a Khorne Berzerker using it in the 5th Ed. Rulebook (according to Lexicanum iirc). 

 

The Deathwatch has access to a ridiculous amount of obscure weapons! I mean ALL new tactical marines get free clips of special issue ammo, which only Veterans usually use. They’ve got Frag Cannons, Nova Grenades, forearm mounted bolters, inferno pistols. I mean we’re using Inquisitor level gear. I’m sure there are thousands of old chain axes and even some chain halberds here and there. They can’t be less common than Power Claymores.

 

On to stats:

 

Power Maul

The Power Maul should have Concussive IMO. They even have a Power Maul in Only War (I'll show high-energy stats)

1d10+5 pen 4, power field, shocking. Gains Concussive (1) if used two-handed

 

The Relic in Honour The Chapter is:

1d10+10 pen 5, power field, concussive, unbalanced, tearing

 

Naturally the higher than usual dmg and tearing makes it a relic. 

 

My suggestion would be:

Power Maul: 1d10+5 pen 5, Power field, Unbalanced, Concussive (1). Req 20 (distinguished)

OR

Power Maul 1d10+7 Pen 6, Power field, Unbalanced, gains Concussive (1) if used 2 handed, Req 20 (distinguished)

 

Personally I think the Power Axe is underpowered, getting +2 dmg and +1 pen and reducing your parry by 20... I'd increase dmg and pen by 1. But that's my personal opinion.

 

Chain Weapons

 

Simplest is Chain Axe and Halberd and comparing them to Power versions:

Chain Axe: 1d10+6 pen 5, tearing unbalanced, Req 10

 

Chain Halberd: 1d10+6 pen 7, tearing Req 15 (Distinguished) (two handed)

 

The Eviscirator in Only War is:

2d10 pen 9, Razor Sharp, Tearing, Unwieldy

 

In Honour The Chapter the Relic version is:

2d10+5 pen 5, tearing unwieldy 

 

So I disagree with you on the non-dmg stats here, mainly due to gameplay elements

Eviscirator: 2d10 pen 5, tearing, unbalanced, Req 15 (Respected)

OR

Eviscirator: 2d10 pen 5, tearing, unbalanced, doubles STR bonus, Req 25 (Respected)

OR

Eviscirator: 2d10 pen 5, tearing, unwieldy, doubles STR bonus, Req 20 (Respected)

 

Unlike the Chain fist this one doesn’t have “Power Field”.  Now if you compare it’s dmg output to a Power Axe (since both have “unbalanced”), it would have “similar” dmg output, although my statistics isn’t good enough to compare “4d10, choose best 2 VS 1d10+8”. BUT Power Axe is one-handed AND has a Power Field.

 

IF however we have it double the Strength Bonus like a Chain fist/Power fist/Thunder hammer, I’d put Unwieldy and 20 req or Unbalanced and 25 req. Comparing the dmg output to Power Axe and +5 str bonus marine, Power Axe will be at a slightly lower dmg (but 2 higher pen), but always has the advantage of Power Field and one-handed. My personal choice would be the last one (20 req).

 

But I'm totally with you on Force Weapons, it's quite simple to change them by using Power Weapons as comparison.

[Slips]

Angron uses two Chain Axes (before Daemonhood), Gorefather and Gorechild, the latter of which falls into Kharns hands at a later point in the Heresy. Don't know about his gear now as a Daemon Prince of Khorne. However, currently only Khorne Berzerkers (7th ed) have free access to Chainaxes or, if in 30k, World Eaters and a few other units such as Sons of Horus Reavers. So, due to its quite obvious Chaotic/Khornate link, I decided to leave the Chain Axe off the table.

 

So, sure, they might have them somewhere but I doubt any well-to-do Marines would pick one up due to how they're perceived by the Inquisition.

 

On the Power Maul, agree on concussive. However, it should not be unbalanced and the Concussive bonus should not be activated by striking Two-Handed for a Marine. Otherwise, I'd go for the first profile.

 

I guess I should have checked the other FFG Books to see if the weapons in question were added at a later point but, hey.

 

I based my Eviscerator Stats on the Tabletop Version which is Sx2 Ap2 Unwieldy, Armourbane, Two-Handed which is the same stats as a Chainfist minus the Two-Handed and not limited to Terminator Armour. And then just removed the Power Field because they straight up do not have one. So, in that regard, I'd keep Unwieldy and Double the Strength Bonus. As such, the last profile seems the best fit.

 

After all, a Power Axe is only S+1 Ap2 Unwieldy on the Tabletop so it should be weaker, significantly so even, since a Marine with S4 hits at S8 with an Eviscerator or Chainfist but only S5 with a Power Axe. However, the Axe costs half as much as the Fist or Eviscerator.

 

So I try to draw as much of my Inspiration from the Tabletop since thats what the RPG is trying to emulate in a more detailed form.

[Skinrider]

Chain axes are still used by the Flesh Tearers and Space Wolves at least, I'll need to dig into my Index Astartes I to find the source. In 30k I've seen Imperial Fists and Iron Hands at least use them.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chainaxe

Someone says chain glaives are also used by Imperial Guard Rough Riders, this though I can't verify

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chain_Weapons

But with the Ad Mech building all the gear, I see no reason they would feel anything is "heretical" as long as its "human tech". If there have been blueprints for chainaxes and chainglaives they'd be fine with making them, or might even have stockpiles. With the number of chapters out there, if we known that a few use them you can be guaranteed there are more

...it's not that I want to use either especially, I just like the idea of DW having access to a VAST variation of wargear. Of course KArack has the last word in all of this.

[Skinrider]

After all, a Power Axe is only S+1 Ap2 Unwieldy on the Tabletop so it should be weaker, significantly so even, since a Marine with S4 hits at S8 with an Eviscerator or Chainfist but only S5 with a Power Axe. However, the Axe costs half as much as the Fist or Eviscerator.

I may be a little too much focused on making everything viable, I often try to see what's "best" and just take that. But I'd love to see there being more side-grades than just upgrades to weapons.

 

But looking at the Power Axe stats in tabletop game terms, it has the same AP as a lascannon, which has pen 10 in DW. Now in DW there's only 1 pen point difference between an Axe and a Sword, while in the table top it's the difference between going through power armor, or going through terminator armor.

 

If a Power Axe had pen 10 I'd say it's a definitely equal to the Power Sword. Still not overpowered, because some of that pen is USUALLY wasted, I mean, even hitting a Space Marine in the head you're only using 8-9 of that pen.

[Skinrider]

Just checked the Black Crusade books, other weapons have the same stats as in DW, so they can be compared.

 

Chain Axe was a little surprising, I didn't understand why it's not unbalanced:

Chain axe 1d10+5 pen 3, tearing

 

Chain Halberd was just surprisingly the same as Chainsword ...but not balanced and requires 2 hands (in the 30k tabletop it's AP3 +1S)

 

Power Maul(mace) was quite fair, perhaps blocking with it is not as hard as we thought

Power Mace 1d10+6 pen 4, power field, Concussive if used 2-handed

 

 

Looks like the Black Crusade versions are less deviation from the "vanilla" than we would have made it. We put bigger penalties and bigger bonuses.

[Karack Blackstone]

Thanks for the continued efforts, everyone.

 

Just to say it, if anyone wants to select something out of the ordinary, please just let me know here, or in the OOC thread.