Deathwing Knight vs. Deathwing Command Squad

[Vanguard06]

For a hard hitting Assault focused Elite Choice is the Deathwing Knight SQD actually superior to the Deathwing Command SQD?

 

The Deathwing Command SQD seems to be on par with the Deathwing Knights while still having access to the HVY Weapons to best utilize the Vengeful Strike (twin link on turn of arrival). 

 

Given a Command Squad with 2x Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield, Banner, Apothecary, Champion, and Assault Cannon (270 pts).  The unit is able to shoot effectively when it arrives and still deliver 12 Power Fist/Hammer attacks and 3 Halberd attacks

 

Contrast that to the Deathwing Knights loose the ability to shoot but gain toughness 5 if all goes well with placement (235 pts).  They have 8 Mace of Absolution attacks or the 4 Smite attacks (Power Fist/Hammer) and 3 Flail Attacks (similar to the Halberd only AP3 gaining fleshbane)

 

 

 

Background info for my perspective:

 

I do not run Deathwing often, focusing mostly on the black and green within the different formations when I play.

 

I have modeled enough Deathwing to field the Command SQD, 2x Deathwing Knights SQDs, 5x Terminator SQDs, and 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts

 

Given these I plan to run a mixed wing of Ravenwing Black-knights, flyers, support squadron, and a grav gun attack squadron with speeder.  The Deathwing will provide harder hitting assault units that can get in the mix, most likely a Venerable and one of the above SQD choices.

[Epher]

If you had to choose between the two, I would go with the command squad every time.  They can shoot on the turn when they deep strike and the apothecary gives them all feel no pain.  The DWK are the coolest looking terminators in the Imperium but they won't get to swing those maces until the assault phase of turn 3.  The Halberd is one of the best weapons available to the DA as it is one of the few AP2 weapons that swings at initiative. 

 

I have an 8 man squad of Knights.  They look real pretty but they only sit on the shelf and collect dust. 

[Chaplain Raeven]

I prefer the Command Squad as well. My knights haven't seen much action yet. You can use the robed torsos for your commandsquad, it's almost a sin to not use those pieces.

[JeffJedi]

While I agree with the above points, I've had Assault Cannon and Cyclones fail to scratch vehicles from behind and a few storm bolters aren't that impressive.

[SnakeChisler]

Deathwing Knights + run Ezekiel

 

If you want them assaulting T2 put them in a drop pod

[DarkAngeal]

I am a huge fan of the deathwing knights-- I know that you all seem to be fans of the halberd, which is honestly a fantastic weapon, but it doesn't have the staying power behind it.

I can't tell you how many times I have gotten the champion into a challenge just to have him killed by an ap2 weapon. The fact is that the 5+ isn't enough to fall back on for what you want this weapon to accomplish. The deathwing knights, on the other hand, can face down a thunder hammer in a duel.

All of the primary threats to terminators (high volume fire and ap2 fire) the dwk run a better chance against (higher toughness and stock 3++)

[ValourousHeart]

Neither... you should take a RWCS.

[Interrogator Stobz]

My last game vs Eldar I had both DWCS and DWK, both got squished by stomp and/or shot off the table prior to doing anything useful.

RWCS also go squished by the WK, but I only charged in to either save the DWKs or shorten the game so we could finish(death or glory ). Game over turn three, pointy ears victorious.

Termies can't get into CC reliably enough, if you have to take either take shooty cheap ones.

[PhilB]

For me it's totally dependant on the formation/detachment.

If I'm running a CAD it's Deathwing Knights, with an Int Chap and if points allow, Ezekiel, in a Land Raider Crusader - so much fun.

If I'm running a DWSF or DWRF its a Deathwing Command Squad. 2 TH & SS, Apoth, DW Champ, heavy flamer & chain fist is my usual load out, they also typically escort an Interromancy Librarian in TDA with the Foe Smiter cause, why not? Although I've been dying to try out the new Librararius discipline with this squad.

 

Edit: If only there was a way to get FnP into your DWK squad, that would be awesome.

[Solrac]

DW Command Squad is more versatile all round having shooty options but you can still build a good CC unit with it albeit limited to 5 models. DW Banner gives them all +1 attack which is a good positive especially with your Champion and his Halberd.

 

DW Knights are more versatile in combat with their Smite ability and you can take more than 5.

 

If you have your heart set on taking a Command Squad, the following loadout has worked well for me (with attached HQ of your choice):

Champion w/ Halberd

TH/SS w/ DW Banner

TH/SS w/ Cyclone Missiles

TH/SS

Apothecary

 

If you have your heart set on some deep striking DW Knights, the magic number I've found is 7 Knights so you can take a couple of casualties and still be effective. Although on paper can take on some rock hard targets I usually aim them at something slow so they can smash through the lines and mess up foot troops, heavy weapons, back line tanks etc.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yeah, for CC the DWKs are much better due to numbers. A good opponent will carve at least couple after they deep strike no matter what you do (because you need to be close enough to move and charge next turn).

 

But always stay away from gargantuan creatures that you don't expect to kill in your attack initiative step. Stomp cares not for our squishy Knights, especially if he rolls a six. :P

[ronin_cse]

Yeah, for CC the DWKs are much better due to numbers. A good opponent will carve at least couple after they deep strike no matter what you do (because you need to be close enough to move and charge next turn).

 

But always stay away from gargantuan creatures that you don't expect to kill in your attack initiative step. Stomp cares not for our squishy Knights, especially if he rolls a six. :P

Don't you mean only if he rolls a 6? Otherwise stomps are only ap4.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That sounds right; I got three templates of 'sixed' the other night, didn't check the other results (don't get stomped often ;) ). So it turns out I was just unlucky :lol:

[Major_Gilbear]

I think the models are too nice not to use!

 

Rules-wise... Add one to each DW squad as a Hammernator Serg. Kinda like Company Vets are drawn from within each Comapny's squads rather than being a standing force, I always assumed (perhaps wrongly) the DW Knights were similar in this regard.

 

But yeah, if they're not great in one edition, I'm sure they'll be the cat's meow in another edition (just how 40k goes) - the main thing is that you make use of the models in each edition without needing to pull them all apart IMO. :)