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Burning Retros Answer


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#1
SkimaskMohawk

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Posted this in the main AoD forum just so people would see, but I finally got an answer from FW about how it works

 

My question

 

"Hello, I recently purchased the new Age if Darkness Army list and am having trouble interpreting a part of the Burning Retros rule: [image of the burning retros rule]

 
Specifically the first bullet point. I read it one of two ways:
  1. That the Dreadnoght may be targeted by shooting attacks while embarked in contrast to the normal rules for transports, yet is still safe from charges
  2. That the Drop Pod may be targeted by shooting attacks, yet may not be charged"

 

The answer:

 

"hi,

Thank you for your email. AS per the first point in Burning Retros, the following applies - 

1. The Dreadnought doesn't have to leave the Drop pod when it lands.

2. The Dreadnought may be targeted by shooting attacks if it stays inside the Drop Pod.

3. Whilst inside the Drop Pod the Dreadnought may not be charged"

 

 

As you can see I phrased it fairly neutrally, so there wasn't any case of me leading them. All that's left now is to determine which facing of the dread you hit when you shoot it (which I sent in a follow up email)



#2
Player 404

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Quite frankly, I don't like how you phrased the question, because that is definitely not what is in contention.

The one point people are arguing about is what case - staying embarked or disembarking - the rule refers to, which you never even mentionned in your post.

Actually, what were you asking precisely? What happens to a dread that remains in the pod, or what happens to a dread that disembarks?

While the answer you got answers the original dilemma, the fact is whiever answered might have completely missed the fact that there IS contention there, and just answered without realizing they were potentially wrong (remember the recent Warhammer TV vs Codex: Deathwatch incident: getting an answer from GW means squat)

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#3
SkimaskMohawk

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I included a picture with the the email of the rules. I assumed that specifying the rule section, with a reference right there and the two interpretations of said bullet point would have been enough information. I'm not sure what else I should have said; "the exact grammar of the sentence makes the pod the recipient of the second 'it' instead of the Dreadnought and as such is immune from being assaulted but still shootable"? The guy would still just ask the development if they wanted the Dreadnought being shot and they would have said yes; they said as much at the last open convention. If you feel like I truly misrepresented the issue and that explaining the exact nature of the pedantic debate might have reached some other result then I can send a second email

#4
Player 404

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Wow, I just realized your question had absolutey nothing to do with what I perceived as being the debate.

I'm therefore no sure if I am the one who didn't understand it, or if you/your group didn't, but here's how I read the ongoing discussion :

The first part of BR (Burning Retros) reads : Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case...

Some people say "this is the case" refers to the Dread staying in the DP : that is, if the dread remains in, it can be shot but not charged.
Some people say "this is the case" refers to the Dread disembarking : that is, if the dread disembarks, it can be shot but not charged.

The contention was never, as far as I could understand, whether or not the POD could be charged, but rather whether or not the DREAD could be shot...

'We're definitely on the wrong side, Khârn.'
'How can you say that?'
'Because both sides are wrong.'
- Argel Tal, in Betrayer


#5
Theredknight

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I agree with how that comes out.
Not to pee on your bonfire though, I had a guy with the laser destroyer rules give me a reply and then 3 hours later after seeing the almighty Bligh in his lair come back with a completely different answer.
All we can hope really is that it's FAQd as well so we have official clarity.
My group has been playing it this way anyway as that's how we read it and came to a consensus.

Edited by Theredknight, 22 August 2016 - 10:00 PM.

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#6
SkimaskMohawk

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It's possible that we both got two different ideas from the debate; the sentence structure is actually that bad. Everything I saw from it was about the pod being safe vs not safe though. @redknight I'm not saying this is ironclad, but it's a good baseline to go by which is really enough for my group so we're all on the same page. Maybe it's a bit disappointing that no one else bothered to send an email for such a controversial thing and when I post my answer people say "lol its not a faq who cares" :/

#7
Charlo

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The real issue comes from it sort of ignores all the normal rules for being inside an open topped transport - which is fine, they just poorly clarified it.

 

But the answer is fine, if you want to assault it you need to blow up the pod (or can you still not in that case RAW? :o) otherwise you can shoot the bugger who gets shrouded.



#8
Terminus

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edit: facing answered in other thread on this... perhaps thread merge?


Edited by Terminus, 23 August 2016 - 08:35 PM.


#9
Theredknight

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I guess you'd declare faces on dropping in?

As The brb states you can destroy the transport and still assault.

I suppose another rule interaction there could be, what if the pod is 'wrecked' on arrival.
The dread then disembarks 6", does it still confer the cover save? My instinct would tell me yes but no clarification there.

Fw often put these things in not considering some of the ramifications of it, GW do it as well(skyhammer formation example) and how it crosses the 'red line' of no assault after ds/reserves.)

Yes skim I agree it can't be taken as concrete but it's a guide, which is better than a big ole nothing, congrats on erring a reply *starts slow clap building to a crescendo*

#10
Charlo

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Looking at the rules - even if they blow up the pod they wouldn't be able to assault a Dread that stayed inside due to the Retro's rule.

 

It lasts until the controlling players next turn, and the rule about assault something blown up out of a transport from the BRB is trumped.



#11
Theredknight

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Ah so basically the turn it arrives no, no charging.
If for some weird reason you stayed in there second turn you can be charged. Yay!!

#12
Terminus

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After the burning retro rule goes away, you can no longer shoot into the pod because it reverts to being an open topped transport with no fancy rules. That's why mechanically the literal interpretation is silly in practice.
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#13
Slips

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Yup. Thats pretty much the main reason why I don't think this is how the rule is supposed to work.

 

  • Drop Down: SHOOT THE DREAD WHILE THE SMOKE IS UP AND BEFORE HE HOPS OUT!
  • Next Turn, Smoke Dissipates, Dread Stays Inside: WELL WE CANT SHOOT HIM NOW! HES IN HIS DROP POD!

Edited by Slipstreams, 25 August 2016 - 07:35 PM.

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#14
Theredknight

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<p>

Yup. Thats pretty much the main reason why I don't think this is how the rule is supposed to work.

  • Drop Down: SHOOT THE DREAD WHILE THE SMOKE IS UP AND BEFORE HE HOPS OUT!
  • Next Turn, Smoke Dissipates, Dread Stays Inside: WELL WE CANT SHOOT HIM NOW! HES IN HIS DROP POD!

Exactly. The leviathan is shielded by the tiny support struts..obviously psshhh!

#15
Charlo

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God this rule is silly haha!

#16
Player 404

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Well, the rule is silly only if played that way.

If played as though the dread can't be shot (i.e. That whole bullet point refers to what happens if the dread pops out) this whole mess doesn't come up and it all makes a lot more sense

'We're definitely on the wrong side, Khârn.'
'How can you say that?'
'Because both sides are wrong.'
- Argel Tal, in Betrayer


#17
Charlo

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Well, the rule is silly only if played that way.

If played as though the dread can't be shot (i.e. That whole bullet point refers to what happens if the dread pops out) this whole mess doesn't come up and it all makes a lot more sense

 

Aye that is my interpretation - it's an open topped transport and he can't be shot or assaulted until the next turn (and even then only if he gets out)


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#18
Sabadin

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If you take the same sentence structure, but change the context out of 40k,it becomes easier to interpret I believe. For example; It's raining outside. John does not have to go outside unless he chooses, if this is the case he will still get soaked in rain.

According to the "you can still shoot the embarked dread" interpretation, if John stays inside he will still get soaked. Doesn't make sense does it?
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#19
Charlo

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If you take the same sentence structure, but change the context out of 40k,it becomes easier to interpret I believe. For example; It's raining outside. John does not have to go outside unless he chooses, if this is the case he will still get soaked in rain.

According to the "you can still shoot the embarked dread" interpretation, if John stays inside he will still get soaked. Doesn't make sense does it?

 

That is very clever.



#20
Terminus

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Yet with that grammar structure that's exactly what you're saying, otherwise why use "still".  It's stupid RAW.



#21
Guiltysparc

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After the burning retro rule goes away, you can no longer shoot into the pod because it reverts to being an open topped transport with no fancy rules. That's why mechanically the literal interpretation is silly in practice.


Oh lordy, that's a whole other reason why that interpretation of the rule is bonkers.

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#22
Terminus

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I mean, technically that's what they wrote and per the OP that's what they meant.  You can make it work with a bunch of houserules:

 

1. controlling player must declare facing of dreadnought inside pod before opponent declares any intercept fire

2. dreadnought inside is assumed to have 25%+ concealment from being behind the struts without having to break any models in half to determine TLOS

3. after burning retros expire, it's still a pod with doors open, so you can continue to fire into it just so universe can maintain some level of sanity, and the dread just has concealment without shrouded.  Assault is still prevented unless the pod is destroyed (because you have to go up a ramp, thus he has higher ground, and your troops saw Episode III so they know better).

 

??


Edited by Terminus, 26 August 2016 - 07:22 PM.

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#23
Black Orange

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This is in no way shape or form official by any means. Seriously only an official FAQ can address this issue.

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#24
SkimaskMohawk

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Glad we have the worst bols contributor's official say so. We can all go home now folks
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#25
Terminus

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Oh snap, shots fired! Snap shots!


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